Start/Stop feature

[x1800MODMY360x]

I use my remote start in the summer time when the temp is above 110F, have the ac turn on for two minutes and of course vw design to turn the car off to get in and restart it lol.

 

[Cuzoe]

Good point, except I would argue that the typical American consumer cannot make fuel consumption reduction a real world priority. Because if they did, we'd still have lots of fuel efficient cars to choose from. But instead, those cars sat and gathered dust on lots while the comparative pump suckers sold, and continue to sell, quite well. So well, that big brands like Ford and GM have pretty much made full sized pickups their flagships.

We (TDI owners) are of course largely the minority exception. We've all had that conversation with a friend, a family member, a perfect stranger... that seem awestruck that our cars are easily capable of over 40, sometimes over 50, MPGs, when the person in question has in their head that 20 MPGs is "acceptable" and 25 MPG is "good".

So a potential 5% improvement on something that gets 25 MPGs to me is not only not in the least bit impressive, but it is akin to dangling something jingly and shiny in front of a puppy.

True... I don't think the typical consumer makes it a priority, they just say they do... "I'm buying the Ram with the Hemi, but it has start-stop so I can get 17.6 mpg instead of 17.1" sort of thing. I think consumers are buying whatever they want, but then want to feel they are doing their part. And I do appreciate that using start-stop doesn't directly reduce MPG, since you're getting 0 MPG while idling, but just to give example numbers.

On the other hand the manufacturers, whom I have mixed feelings about, are making what sells. I don't know how much else they can do to that Hemi, for example, to reduce fuel consumption .

@740GLE I agree that behavior can negate a benefit, big picture. But behavior doesn't negate the effectiveness of the individual system. My (our) TDI's are capable of 50 MPG. But my commute is less than 2 miles (now, when I bought it I was commuting 70+ miles a day) and I don't road trip in the TDI. So my behavior/use means I rarely see that capability.

Likewise start-stop still does what start-stop does, regardless of whether one chooses to remote start and let the car sit for 10 minutes to warm up. If that warm-up time is followed by an hour of stop and go traffic the start-stop still reduces fuel/emissions during the idle time. It's not a net positive... but perhaps the full deal ends up at 10 minutes of idling (in the driveway) instead of 15 minutes of idling (driveway and when stopped in traffic).

Not at all. One is "intended" to save fuel/emissions, one "intentionally" does the exact opposite.

So, the feel-good Greta points a manufacturer gets for installing the S/S should logically be taken back if the same car is equipped with the remote start, right? Neither could be accurately measured, only speculation. But I'm sure someone out there has tried to do so.

Of course, if your car had both, you could equalize it... unnecessary idling with a remote start, then NO unnecessary idling with start-stop. Both are dumb to me.

The fuel can certainly be measured, and has... it's just fuel flow, as measured in the video posted. Emissions could be measured as well. I think the point I and @turbobrick240 is making is that having remote start does not mean start-stop isn't working. I don't ever have to use remote start, even if my car is equipped. I am, however, delusional if I use start-stop with the goal of reducing fuel/emissions while I also use remote start to warm up the car.

 

[Nuje]

And I do appreciate that using start-stop doesn't directly reduce MPG, since you're getting 0 MPG while idling, but just to give example numbers.

Which is why measuring fuel economy in L/100km makes so much more sense.

I am, however, delusional if I use start-stop with the goal of reducing fuel/emissions while I also use remote start to warm up the car.

Yeah - there does often to be some kind of cognitive dissonance that happens where people don't see the wastefulness of things they like (getting into cool car in summer / warm car in winter; or "big strong engine = me big strong human") vs. the consequences of those actions ("did you see how much it cost to fill up?!!?").

People: we're strange.

 

[Cuzoe]

Which is why measuring fuel economy in L/100km makes so much more sense.

Respectfully, we know not what L or km means. My understanding is one or both were principally responsible for the crash of the Mars Climate Orbiter.

 

[Nuje]

I believe one of those units of measure was also responsible for an Air Canada 767 back in the 80s running out of fuel and having to make an emergency "glider" landing at an abandoned airstrip in Gimli, MB. O (Air) Canada.

 

[740GLE]

I use my remote start in the summer time when the temp is above 110F, have the ac turn on for two minutes and of course vw design to turn the car off to get in and restart it lol.

If I have the wifes passat with remote start, it's typically parked too far away so that the remote start so it'd only run for what 10 seconds as I walk up to the car, so I'll just use the remote to lower the windows and let the hot air escape. Alas the number days in tripple digits are few and far between.

 

[740GLE]

True... I don't think the typical consumer makes it a priority, they just say they do... "I'm buying the Ram with the Hemi, but it has start-stop so I can get 17.6 mpg instead of 17.1" sort of thing. I think consumers are buying whatever they want, but then want to feel they are doing their part. And I do appreciate that using start-stop doesn't directly reduce MPG, since you're getting 0 MPG while idling, but just to give example numbers.

Don't forget cylinder deactivation that causes $$$ in repairs after it fails, or is that only GM with that failtastic system?

 

[oilhammer]

BMW had it on some of their I6s, but I don't think it ever caused any issues. ChryCo used it on some of the Hemi V8s. GM has it on some I4s, V6s, and V8s, and they don't all work the same. It all falls under their moniker of AFM, Active Fuel Management. I think they've done better on the newer models, and the V8s can sequentially turn off ALL EIGHT cylinders with some really clever software. They can drop one cylinder in the rotation, every rotation, and have it be a different cylinder each time!

VAG has some on some I4s, which works almost identical to the system on GM's I4, but they don't sell any here. They are limited to turning off two cylinders.

Honda has had VCM system on their V6s for almost two decades now. The only thing that sticks in my head with those, is that the early ones that had it (like a 2005 Odyssey) have a $3k engine mount repair when (not if) those fail, because the VCM engines have a very different, sophisticated, and FRAGILE engine mounting system. Most of those go unrepaired and they just yank and tear all the hoses apart until some vital juice blows out and strands it on the side of the road.

But yes, no matter which setup they employ, they are not without their issues.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I've been following this thread for a bit, and find it rather interesting. I've been doing learning on the start/stop systems on the rebuilding side of things and find it very interesting, though many of the standard style start stop systems using a standard style starter motor have been needing plenty of starter replacements. We recently had a training article from the electrical rebuilders association discussing the differences and how the different styles work. The most applicable style for this discussion is the starter motor style. Many of the manufacturers have a double terminal solenoid on them with one terminal being the one which pushes the drive into the flywheel and the second one being the one that closes the contacts for the starter motor, thus somewhat negating the extra flywheel wear. I'm not sure if that's how the VW one works, as I've not dealt with them yet.
Another interesting difference is the armature is often grooved on the commutator bars so it will have more contact surface with the brushes.

I've been curious, as I had someone contact me wanting a start-stop starter to retrofit for a TDI (maybe one of you guys?) And I wasn't sure if anybody had the part number for them?

 

[Cuzoe]

@Mozambiquer part number is back on page 1, where I deftly resurrected the thread, haha.

Start/Stop feature

Sorry if this has been asked before, it was hard to search with these particular terms. In rental cars I’ve had in Europe I really enjoyed the start stop feature that would turn the engine off at red lights, etc. Do the American versions of the mk7 TDI have this feature? Mine is the SE model...

forums.tdiclub.com

I've got one coming from somewhere in the EU, got tracking but no movement yet unfortunately. Free shipping so it'll be slow anyway. The starter called out for a 6MT CRUA with start-stop isn't available in the states.

 

[pedroYUL]

It baffles me that we are still using brushed motors on starters, when brushless lasts multiple times longer and provide much more torque (or speed, depending on how you wind it)

 

[oilhammer]

Because a starter only needs to be used briefly, they are cheaper, and they only need to spin at a specific RPM.

They've already gotten them pretty small... soda can sized for most of them, even larger engines or smaller diesels.

 

[pedroYUL]

Well maybe @Nuje and/or @Cuzoe wants to do some tinkering and pair their LiPo battery with a brushless starter.

Every time I get the choice (pool pump, bathroom fans, ceiling fans, furnace motor, energy recovery ventilator) I choose brushless DC. They run much lower power and extremely quiet...and I know they will run for years and years without creating carbon dust

 

[Cuzoe]

Don't forget cylinder deactivation that causes $$$ in repairs after it fails, or is that only GM with that failtastic system?

Oh yes that, I didn't forget about it. My father-in laws transportation business has one 2023 Escalade, with the V8. It has cylinder deactivation. I don't know the what/how of the specific iteration... but it's smooth, as is everything in the Escalade. He ended up buying it because customers (private airport mostly) demanded it, after swearing them off due to the cost of fueling them.

 

[Cuzoe]

Well maybe @Nuje and/or @Cuzoe wants to do some tinkering and pair their LiPo battery with a brushless starter.

Every time I get the choice (pool pump, bathroom fans, ceiling fans, furnace motor, energy recovery ventilator) I choose brushless DC. They run much lower power and extremely quiet...and I know they will run for years and years without creating carbon dust

Ohhhh... is @Nuje getting a LiPo battery? I like the sound of that, although it gets mighty cold up there. If there's a (semi)drop in brushless starter available I'm all for trying it.

 

[Mozambiquer]

There are brushless starters used in aircraft... but the expense and power to size ratio, along with brushed motors being perfectly suited for the application as a starter motor as we can see by a lot of them going hundreds of thousands of miles without needing replaced.
Some of the newer Audi hybrid cars have a brushless starter/alternator combo.

 

[pedroYUL]

Well, you do have a point @Mozambiquer on the power to size ratio. I have been using (and winding my own) brushless motors in RC airplanes and cars, along with a few battery chemistries.

Imagine trying to fly a small plane using a brushed motor (weak) and NiCad batts (heavy)

Now, back to power to size, yes inrunners (rotor inside, stator case) are by nature designed to run very high rpm, now that usually gets solved with gearing, unless you are building a replica jet.

Outrunners (case becomes the rotor) love to provide torque, and they typically run an order of magnitude lower rpm. The problem with an outrunner is obvious...can't have stuff that can rub or otherwise touch the case.

 

[Nuje]

Ohhhh... is @Nuje getting a LiPo battery? I like the sound of that, although it gets mighty cold up there. If there's a (semi)drop in brushless starter available I'm all for trying it.

On the list of potential retrofit projects...the LiPo battery is near the bottom. Given that, while we don't get the full and true Canadian winter experience here on the west coast, there is the occasional sub -10°C morning here; Nuje will definitely not be undertaking that project anytime soon.

 

[Cuzoe]

On the list of potential retrofit projects...the LiPo battery is near the bottom. Given that, while we don't get the full and true Canadian winter experience here on the west coast, there is the occasional sub -10°C morning here; Nuje will definitely not be undertaking that project anytime soon.

Yea I suspected as much. Really, even without start-stop I should have installed the battery monitoring module when I did the LiPo. Then that battery type adaptation in the gateway would actually matter.

My understanding is that even though you can change it without the monitor, it doesn't actually impact the way the car charges the battery... which makes sense. The LiPo is intended for automotive applications and has presented no issues with whatever "dumb" charging the car does now.

But if I can do anything so the car does something more appropriate for the battery type, from a charging perspective that can only be a good thing considering the LiPo cost.

 

[Nuje]

Just from computer / phone usage and recommended charging / discharging, seems like the "keeping the battery 95-100% full all the time" of a car battery is a less-than-ideal fit for LiPo battery.

 

[Cuzoe]

I don't know the full chemistry details of the Braille (read, too lazy to go back and dig through links) but one of the things they (Braille) mention is that the battery can sit for 12 months (disconnected) and retain over 90% of it's charge and they claim it will last 3-5 as long as a (I assume traditional) lead acid. They don't seem worried about the lifetime, so I'm not. For all I know it has integrated, but simple, battery management. There are auto-aimed lithium batteries that use this feature to "turn off" once a certain voltage is reached to make sure parasitic draw doesn't bring them down to where you wouldn't be able to crank.

 

[dieseldonato]

The battery management unit will determine maximum charge and discharge. There is no reason to need to change anything on the car side of things. Only real issue that may present is cold weather. Most lithium really needs some sort of heater when it gets closer to and below freezing temps.

 

[Cuzoe]

I already moved to Los Angeles and I'll move again if necessary to make sure I don't encounter such atrocities as a "freezing" temperatures .

 

[740GLE]

Oh yes that, I didn't forget about it. My father-in laws transportation business has one 2023 Escalade, with the V8. It has cylinder deactivation. I don't know the what/how of the specific iteration... but it's smooth, as is everything in the Escalade. He ended up buying it because customers (private airport mostly) demanded it, after swearing them off due to the cost of fueling them.

The in-laws had an 2018 Tahoe 5.3 with cylinder deactivation, you could tell a very minor slight vibration when it dropped cylinders Drove the mother in law crazy.

 

[Cuzoe]

Yea I think I would be annoyed if I could feel it. Escalade engine mounts might be made of jelly, haha. You can feel the power of the engine but also can't feel the engine. For the money I guess that's how it should be. I only knew it dropped cylinders because of the dash indication. And man alive, that giant screen/dash thing is nice to look at it.

 

[Cuzoe]

On-topic (not that I'm at all bothered by off topic talk)... in addition to the stuff mentioned in the earlier post, a neutral position sensor will also be required.

Neutral Position Sensor (G701) - PN 02T906207D (MSRP is $112, my dealer has it for $80)
- The OE part number is 9.0773, manufactured by Facet, can be had for $20 on Amazon.

This takes a 3 wire plug, PN 4F0973703A, can be had with pigtail, new on eBay for about $20
- Pin 1 and 2 go to the ECU, pin 3 is ground

I have not verified that my transmission case has a plug in the location where this goes, hopefully get a chance to look this weekend.
Here's a video of where it would be...

Anyway, both my battery sensor and starter show "accepted" in the Netherlands but no additional tracking since then, about 10 days ago. Hopefully they are still on the way (boat I assume since shipping was free) and I'll see a scan when they hit a port somewhere.

 

[Cuzoe]

Bad news (for me), some of you all may be happy to hear it I guess .

Seller of the starter says they were informed it was lost in the sorting facility and they refunded me. Of course I'd rather have the starter than the ~$40 so gotta source one of those again. I mean, they're available, I'm just being cheap for... reasons below.

Next problem is that our manual transmission does not have the neutral position sensor, which the Erwirn diagrams say is "only" fitted to cars with start/stop. And based on the video above, start/stop is not going to work without it. I pulled my intake and took a picture...
Transmission case is not drilled for that sensor (my pic here, don't my flickr password to upload it properly)

As you all can probably imagine, I'm not a smart enough man to have ruled out this retrofit. My battery sensor arrived and I'll source another starter. Keen to keep the cost of the starter down, though probably not as low as the one I found. Connectors are already on order and I ordered the OE (Facet) neutral position sensor. I'll see how it looks, compared to the not-drilled hole in the transmission case and make a decision from there.

 

[Nuje]

(Image that @Cuzoe linked to above of the "not drilled hole" for where his neutral position sensor is not.)

Given what I imagine the size of that two-pin reverse switch plug to be, the "hole" for the neutral position switch looks relatively narrow - like a ¼" drill bit would open it up (with the solid mass beside it being drill/tap-able for the hold-down bolt).

But then looking at the actual size of the NPS from the 02T906207D part number....it looks to be a larger diameter. And length looks like it wouldn't even reach down the depth of the cavity of the image above, let alone through the case.

 

[Cuzoe]

I agree with both statements... almost has me wondering if there's a different part number NPS for our cars... give me 15 minutes a while, haha. Difficult digging since it does not seem that any NAR Golf types with MT came with start/stop.

 

[Brian's96TDIPASSAT]

I loathe that feature, and would disable it. Unless it was made "impossible" to do so, in which case I would not own the car.

I figured out how to do it on my dad's 2015 F150, thankfully.

On hybrids, where there is not a conventional starter motor or flywheel, it is fine. But just putting software in place that taxes an otherwise normal starter, battery, flywheel in the quest for carbon credits and .001 MPG increase I find it to be absurd.

I also think on diesels it is of less advantage than the gas engines.

I'm with you, the most annoying feature ever. Spend a hundo to get a autostop eliminator for my wifes new Bronco that way you don't need to turn it off every time you re-start