Start/Stop feature

[Cuzoe]

I'm with you, the most annoying feature ever. Spend a hundo to get a autostop eliminator for my wifes new Bronco that way you don't need to turn it off every time you re-start

There's been a lot of discussion since that post. No argument at all about what people find annoying (or don't mind). But a few of those points are demonstrably false...

Both the starter and battery for a car (specifically an Mk7 the 2.0CR and 6MT) equipped with start/stop are different. Parts looked up for ROW vehicle, since the Mk7 TDI was never offered with it in North America. I suppose we don't know the real difference between the starters, would need to find a spec sheet from Valeo, but something is not the same because they gave them different part numbers. I'm sure it's just going to be a different chemistry battery, not a big deal but spec'd differently for cars with and without start/stop.

I don't expect the flywheel is different, although I didn't actually look at the parts breakdown for transmission with and without start/stop. At some point this weekend I might have a look. Turns out the 6MT for start/stop has the case drilled for the neutral position sensor. So it's unknown whether that's the only difference.

Fuel savings is easily measured, and has been... see the video posted in an earlier post. Of course it will vary between engines, and the savings on fuel may or may not offset the lifetime cost (for the owner) of replacing other components required for the system. But as a singular measure... an engine not running is not putting out exhaust gases, and also not using any fuel.

In the short test mentioned in that video (city driving, light and heavy traffic, 2 liter gasser) they saw between 4 and 8% MPG increase. If we call it 5% and assume a modern 2L gasser gets 25 MPG that moves us 26.25 MPG. That's 1,250x the increase alleged (estimated?) in the post you quoted .

And carbon credits? Are those offered to manufacturers for having start/stop vehicles in their lineup? Is there some way I can get some carbon credits (to sell) If I finish this retrofit? That might convince me to drill the hole in the side of my transmission case. How much driving do I need to do to generate, or rather realize, 1 ton of CO2 savings to earn one of those sweet credits which are worth $30/ea here in California. And is there any way I could sell them in the EU where they're about $100/ea right now .

 

[740GLE]

I thought auto start stop/variable cylinder was a bean counters way of helping meet CAFE standards, not "credits".

If you don't meet CAFE for the fleet, you gotta pay extra coins to the feds. I think Mopar was the biggest payer of CAFE fines, which is probably just the profits from selling the first 1000 Red Eyes or something.

 

[Cuzoe]

@740GLE I believe you are correct, I'm not aware of start/stop having any relation to carbon credits. I'm not sure emissions is even a factor directly, although it is a byproduct of increased fuel economy. I only mentioned credits because the post I quoted... quoted another post that mentions credits.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

The DSG flywheel is different. Not sure about manual transmission cars. LUK PN for the stop/start flywheel is DMF181. For the non stop/start it's DMF126. However, they do appear to be interchangeable.

 

[turbobrick240]

Yeah, I believe all of the LUK equipped MK7 2.0l TDIs sold here came with the DMF 181 anyhow, so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[milktree]

Yeesh... I'd just like for the radio to stay on when I turn off the car like the MK-7.5 cars.

I'd be perfectly happy to just press the "engine start/stop" button when I get to a train crossing or a light I know is always long, except that it's a pain to re-start the engine (without clutch pressed) to turn the engine "on" without actually running just so I can keep listening to podcasts.

And sometimes I want to hear the next bit when I get home, and I don't want to sit in the driveway with the engine idling.

Maybe a MIB2 upgrade or some VCDS coding would give me what I want.


Having said that, I was pretty impressed with how seamless the start/stop feature was on the Golf we rented in Italy. If the car is stopped and the clutch out (therefore in neutral) the engine stopped. As soon as you press the clutch pedal, the engine re-starts, and it did it fast enough it never prevented me from driving away without delay.

 

[Nuje]

Huh - no problem on my Mk7 GSW with that. Radio stays on when I turn off the car until I open the door (or some time frame - maybe an hour?).

I'm guessing there's a coding thing where "radio on with engine not running" can be enabled. It works in my mk4, so can't imagine it would've been removed in Mk7.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

On my MKIVs the radio stays on until you remove the key. But I have no problem letting the car idle for a while if needed.

 

[oilhammer]

You can turn the radio back on after you remove the key, too. The Sprinter let me do this, too, but turned off on its own after about 10 minutes.

 

[dieseldonato]

On my MKIVs the radio stays on until you remove the key. But I have no problem letting the car idle for a while if needed.

My 01 is the same way. Didn't realize it was like that till I stopped off at my uncles shop, hopped out to go inside (never bother ti take keys out of a vehicle there, incase it needs moved.) And the dang radio kept playing till I took the key out. Never seen anything like that before.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Back in the day the '66 VW Bus I learned to drive in had the radio independent of the ignition. Would run regardless. You had to turn it off when you left the car. Of course it was also an AM only radio.

 

[Nuje]

On my MKIVs the radio stays on until you remove the key. But I have no problem letting the car idle for a while if needed.

Right. I knew the radio stayed on until [something]; just mixed up my "something"s.

As for the Mk7, I just remembered that you can also turn the radio back on quickly just by hitting the power button once it turns off.

 

[Cuzoe]

There have been lots of discussions about radio turn-off behavior. No one, that I have read, has found anything in coding/adaptations. I don't remember the behavior on MIB I honestly. On MIB II and 2.5 my radio will stay on when ignition is turned off, until I pull the key out. I don't know it works for cars with KESSY.

The microphone (which is in the overhead console) turns off about 30 seconds after ignition is off though. So if I'm on the phone and turn off ignition I've gotta wrap it up before the person on the other end can no longer hear me. This is weird behavior, to me, though consistent across MIB's.

The bluetooth module is internal to the MIB (unlike previous generations), so it stays on (and phone connected). The mic is connected directly to the MIB, and also to the Telematics Control Unit (Car-Net). But for whatever reason it does not remain powered with ignition off.

 

[pedroYUL]

KESSY stays on until you open the door. Although don't remember if it did with MIB1, I have MIB2 now

 

[hskrdu]

For Mk7 MIB1, I have observed radio turns off with with KESSY engine stop button, and that (at least with our cars) phone calls revert from car audio to phone audio (with some calls getting lost when ignition is turned off). For Mk7 MIB2 with KESSY, the radio turns off with (at least) driver door opening. I prefer this second option, since you can stop the engine but still listen to the radio until exiting the car. For both MIB1 and MIB2 with KESSY, the radio can be turned back on after ignition off via the engine stop button, and it runs for 30min (instead of the 60min in our MkIV's, which is odd). Would love to reset MIB1 to turn off when the driver door opens.

 

[Cuzoe]

I'm not sure there's anything to reset. The MIB is connected to battery bus and (as I understand it) the the auto on/off function is in response to can bus messages. For example, the main unit powers up (but not the screen) as soon as I unlock the doors with my key fob.

It seems that for auto-off, the MIB I is watching for the a can bus message that the engine has been turned off. While on MIB II the auto-off is watching for key-out and/or door open message, depending on whether or not you have KESSY. I thought you could always turn it back on with the power button, even without going back to "Accessory" or I guess the single press of the start/stop button for KESSY).

There is no long coding helper for MIB 2.5, and there are over 1,000 adaptations. I have looked at them enough times to make me dizzy and never found anything that would change the auto on/off behavior.

 

[hskrdu]

Reset as in "change." The way the MIB2 functions is preferred.

 

[Cuzoe]

Reset as in "change." The way the MIB2 functions is preferred.

Yea, I interpreted "reset" to mean "change" in this- context. I still stand by my last post. Nothing to change regarding the auto on/off. Although it is clear VW changed it between MIB 1 and 2. I too prefer the MIB 2 (and 2.5) behavior.

 

[hskrdu]

Cuzoe, you mean "there is no method to make a change" rather than "there is nothing to change," right? For me, there certainly is something I'd change if I could!

 

[Cuzoe]

Cuzoe, you mean "there is no method to make a change" rather than "there is nothing to change," right? For me, there certainly is something I'd change if I could!

Haha, yes that is correct!

 

[Brian's96TDIPASSAT]

There's been a lot of discussion since that post. No argument at all about what people find annoying (or don't mind). But a few of those points are demonstrably false...

Both the starter and battery for a car (specifically an Mk7 the 2.0CR and 6MT) equipped with start/stop are different. Parts looked up for ROW vehicle, since the Mk7 TDI was never offered with it in North America. I suppose we don't know the real difference between the starters, would need to find a spec sheet from Valeo, but something is not the same because they gave them different part numbers. I'm sure it's just going to be a different chemistry battery, not a big deal but spec'd differently for cars with and without start/stop.

I don't expect the flywheel is different, although I didn't actually look at the parts breakdown for transmission with and without start/stop. At some point this weekend I might have a look. Turns out the 6MT for start/stop has the case drilled for the neutral position sensor. So it's unknown whether that's the only difference.

Fuel savings is easily measured, and has been... see the video posted in an earlier post. Of course it will vary between engines, and the savings on fuel may or may not offset the lifetime cost (for the owner) of replacing other components required for the system. But as a singular measure... an engine not running is not putting out exhaust gases, and also not using any fuel.

In the short test mentioned in that video (city driving, light and heavy traffic, 2 liter gasser) they saw between 4 and 8% MPG increase. If we call it 5% and assume a modern 2L gasser gets 25 MPG that moves us 26.25 MPG. That's 1,250x the increase alleged (estimated?) in the post you quoted .

And carbon credits? Are those offered to manufacturers for having start/stop vehicles in their lineup? Is there some way I can get some carbon credits (to sell) If I finish this retrofit? That might convince me to drill the hole in the side of my transmission case. How much driving do I need to do to generate, or rather realize, 1 ton of CO2 savings to earn one of those sweet credits which are worth $30/ea here in California. And is there any way I could sell them in the EU where they're about $100/ea right now .

Initial start up your usually using more fuel and causing more emissions in that initial couple of seconds than if you idle for 20 seconds IMO

 

[turbobrick240]

Initial start up your usually using more fuel and causing more emissions in that initial couple of seconds than if you idle for 20 seconds IMO

That's undoubtedly true on cold starts, but probably not on a warm "re-start".

 

[Nuje]

See aforelinked video from the Engineering Explained guy where he takes "opinion" out of the equation.

Is Having A Start-Stop System Worth It? | Is Having A Start-Stop System Worth It? | By Engineering ExplainedFacebook

Is Having A Start-Stop System Worth It?

www.facebook.com

 

[Cuzoe]

Initial start up your usually using more fuel and causing more emissions in that initial couple of seconds than if you idle for 20 seconds IMO

We don't have to go on opinion though, it has been measured...

That's undoubtedly true on cold starts, but probably not on a warm "re-start".

Correct... more fuel on cold starts to get the emissions equipment up to temp. But I could see that difference even in my Mk4 1.8T. First start of the day it would idle high for a little bit. Run in the corner store and come out, low idle immediately.

Edit: @Nuje beat me to it, no need for our opinion on how much fuel is saved, we have the science. It's only about fuel, and may or may not "balance out" when other factors are considered (battery life, starter life, etc.) but strictly fuel... we know the benefit of start/stop.

 

[turbobrick240]

In this study by Argonne National Labs, the 2.0l diesel compact sedan actually consumed slightly more fuel at idle than the 2.0l gasoline compact sedan. So the 7 second break even figure from Jason @ E.E. probably applies to TDIs as well.

Fact #861 February 23, 2015 Idle Fuel Consumption for Selected Gasoline and Diesel Vehicles

Idle fuel consumption rates for selected gasoline and diesel vehicles vary widely.

www.energy.gov

Edit: while the diesel car consumed marginally more fuel by volume at idle than the comparable gas car, it's worth noting that the CO2 emissions from the idling diesel are a bit over 10% higher.

 

[milktree]

Huh - no problem on my Mk7 GSW with that. Radio stays on when I turn off the car until I open the door (or some time frame - maybe an hour?).

I'm guessing there's a coding thing where "radio on with engine not running" can be enabled. It works in my mk4, so can't imagine it would've been removed in Mk7.

My '15 turns the radio off when the engine turns off. It's an SEL, so it has pushbutton ignition. There is no "accessory" position or "removing the key".

My wife's '19 Alltrack, also with pushbutton ignition, does the right thing: The radio stays on for 30 minutes (maybe) or until you open the door.

I'd like that functionality. Maybe I could get it with MIB2 or MIB2.5

 

[Nuje]

Ok, yeah - so it must be a MIB2+ feature. Just another reason to upgrade.

 

[Cuzoe]

@milktree As a bad influence, my vote is MIB 2.5

 

[hskrdu]

My '15 turns the radio off when the engine turns off. It's an SEL, so it has pushbutton ignition. There is no "accessory" position or "removing the key".\
My wife's '19 Alltrack, also with pushbutton ignition, does the right thing: The radio stays on for 30 minutes (maybe) or until you open the door.
I'd like that functionality. Maybe I could get it with MIB2 or MIB2.5

We have pushbutton start in both our Mk7's, but accessory position would be pushing the start button without the clutch pedal depressed . It's the same as turning the key without starting the car. There must be a automatic transmission version of that.

 

[Nuje]

From what I remember on my DSG car, it was simply pressing the START/STOP button without pressing the brake pedal. Everything lights up / turns on, except the engine.