Blown engine after TDIclub member TB change

[jjvincent]

I hope that the "respected member" chimes in here and gives us their take of the situation. This is sad, and scary

If by chance, it was the "respected members" fault. I hope they chime in too. This is not to "go off on him or her" but so we can all learn from this experience and keep this happening in the future.

Odds are, that this will happen again, but being educated will help us all.

 

[MIA]

IF the valve did not fall in the cylinder then there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that a new head could not be installed and send you on your way. Even if you have sever dimples from the pistons hitting the valves they will be just fine since all the combustion occurs in the bowl NOT on top in the valve recesses.

The head of the valve broke off and was sitting in the bowl of the piston, there is also a ton of shrapnel filling cylinder 2, my guess is this valve and shrapnel has wrecked havoc on the entire cylinder. I will have to pay my $400 and find a place to dock my car and turn the crank to see if any visible scratches were made. As for the bowl in the piston, I believe it has been badly dented and scratched in many places, again it was full of shrapnel so I don't know for sure. Needless to say I am very afraid of buying a new head and having my engine run "ok" for a short time before something else seriously goes wrong. The dealer to this point has done a half-a$$ job tearing down and diagnosing the problem. I think there is much more damage assessment to be done before we start jumping to conclusions.

My car needs a home, I may be able to get my father-in-law to get ahold of a company trailer and truck to tow it to his house (Ligonier, IN), temporarly. We just do not have the expertise or the tools to fix this. Like I said earlier, I am lucky enough this happened when my wife and I can borrow the old beater she drove years ago.

I also would like to thank everyone that has been kind enough to send donations. Hopefully there will be pictures to come.

edit: The injector in #2 is dead as well.

 

[Drivbiwire]

Since the valve broke off your into it for a new motor. By the time you replace the pistons and hone the cylinders you would be better off just dropping in a new block.

Look into the complete motor from Parts Place, I have had good luck with them and the motors are all complete and ready to go. The swap out with the pump is pretty easy and all you have to do is swap the wiring harnes instead of using the one that comes with the engine.

DB

 

[Genesis]

You gotta be kidding me.

This guy has one hole bad and a bad head, and we're ready to toss the motor? Why?

I'd never do that on a boat diesel. What's a piston, conrod, bearing set and head w/valves cost? I am assuming that the bore isn't so badly screwed that it cannot be cleaned up with a hone or bored slightly over.

 

[tdipoet]

Good Lord. I mean, I could see it if the guy needed a new kidney. But, seriously, here folks...let's get some perspective.

Donate to the "engine" fund? Yikes. Where's that "Life is more than just TDIs" guy when we need him.

I sent a small donation to your engine fund. I would hope others do the same.

you are 100% right. life isn't just about tdi's. and this thread proves that.

from my perspective, this group's finest moments are when we are helping a fellow forum member in need - be that by changing a timing belt for free, giving advice, or cushioning their financial blow when something like this occurs. if i wanted fair weather friends only, i'd go to other forums.

 

[POWERSTROKE]

$ is in your account. Sorry for your motor.

 

[POWERSTROKE]

I hate to be a total dick, but I think the installer needs to fess up if he made a mistake. I mean, big deal you didn't charge for the install. I have a sinking suspicion who it is too. Check my previous posts on this thread.

 

[Drivbiwire]

You gotta be kidding me.

This guy has one hole bad and a bad head, and we're ready to toss the motor? Why?

I'd never do that on a boat diesel. What's a piston, conrod, bearing set and head w/valves cost? I am assuming that the bore isn't so badly screwed that it cannot be cleaned up with a hone or bored slightly over.

Piston set (sold only as a set of 4) $900.00
Conrod set (sole only as a set of 4) $500.00
Bearing set $200.00
Head w/valves $1400.00 give or take
Head gasket $50.00
Coolant $12.00
Engine mount bolts $20.00
New 80/100K timing belt kit (Dont reuse the old one!) $190.00
Total so far is in excess of $3300!

The new crate motor is complete with brand new injection pump and brand new VNT15 turbo as well as a brand new block for $2800.000 no brainer if you ask me.

The best part is you could sell off the parts like the head or even the block as a rebuildable core.

Damage a piston and score the block on a TDI and its always cheaper to get a new motor in the crate.

DB

 

[GoFaster]

The most expedient and cost-effective solution is to buy and install the crate engine from Parts Place or wherever, and part out the old engine for what is salvageable from it. Someone will buy that auto tranny (11mm) injector pump, if nothing else!

 

[Genesis]

Ok, if I can only buy 4 of everything, and with those kinds of parts prices, I get it.

Those kinds of prices and "requirements" are outright theft, but if they're what you've got, then they're what you've got.

 

[Drivbiwire]

The pistons and con rods are all matched sets by weight and size, you simply cant mix and match in a VW diesel like you can with other domestic motors. They take that balancing thing pretty serious those VW engineers...

DB

 

[MRIBOB]

I found a March 2000 Jetta TDI engine complete- (Ex for turbo its extra)
$1000.00

call 619-661-6540
DAVE S AUTO WRECKING
970 HERITAGE ROAD, SAN DIEGO CA 92154
I talked to Ricardo. Complete TDI motor with starter and alt. injectors and pump . Everything but the turbo and thats extra.
Hope its helps.

 

[RichTDI]

Is it possible that the crank may have been damaged also?

 

[GeWilli]

DBW don't forget the head bolts. Those aren't a trivial cost.

And if you have an auto tranny it would be a good idea to get a crate engine with an 11mm pump. Because it will have the rightsize pump and injectors. You could use the 11mm pump out of your engine and sell the 10mm pump and use the bigger injectors and get a touch more power . . .

Buy a new engine. Sounds like the timing was off. On the positive side the new motors that Parts Place sells in Michigan are ready to go. And it is probably close enough that you or the person that helped with the timing belt could make the run up to Auburn Hills and pick it up and save on some freight.

I didn't want to hear that there were marks on all the pistons . . . kinda eliminates the whole FOD scenario and pretty much seals the deal for the dealer - no coverage.

Good luck - good luck with it all . . .

 

[MOGolf]

If by chance, it was the "respected members" fault. I hope they chime in too. This is not to "go off on him or her" but so we can all learn from this experience and keep this happening in the future.

As you asked, in the interest of learning not bashing, below is a response I received from the TB changer.

This is not my first timing belt, not to say I can't screw up but the owner was there watching and I was showing him how the cam was locked and timing mark aligned. In fact I even got the manual out and showed him where the timing mark was to be in the window. Motor turned over smooth so it was all put back together and it started right away. There was a noise that could not be identified so he was instructed to shut it off. We then took the valve cover back off and checked everything again. Now this was the third time. Everything seemed OK with the valve train so it was put back together and restarted. It sat and ran at idle for about 5 or so minutes. We then took it off the jack stands and he started it up and drove it about 3/4 of a mile. During that time, MIA told me it started to lose power so he turned it around and started back and he didn't quite make it back. My neighbor told me he saw a puff of blue smoke before he pulled over and stopped. I would guess this is when it all let go. For a timing belt to be so far out to cause this much damage to one valve and not the others is very unlikely. I know this from first hand experience with other cars. The lifter has the top blown off and the valve spring is stuck in the head the valve stem was way up with the keepers gone when we first took the valve cover off.. The keepers and all parts were lying in the top of the head. Now we have one valve destroyed, keepers off and the lifter exploded with the others not touched and in tack. This is not a miss-timed engine. Here are the pictures.

edited by request to replace the second picture.

 

[Randy from Utah]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I went back to take another look at the engine, the tech showed me where there were some slight marks on all 4 cylinders, basically a ring of soot was missing in the exact size and shape of the valves, but there didn't seem to be much scoring on the piston itself. The tech pointed out at least one other valve is slightly bent, as it did not seat flush with the bottom of the head (sorry I don't know which cylinder it was either the other valve on cylinder #2 or the same (ie intake or exhust) valve on cylinder #3). I didn't inspect the edges of the other valves that closely.

Can't argue with the valve collisions on top of the pistons.....Engine valve timing was way off!!

Randy

 

[MOGolf]

One more word from the belt installer: He is going to replace the engine.

 

[TDI_ESEL]

This "unknown installer" wasn't our own LanduytG...was it?

We're watching you Greg!

One more word from the belt installer: He is going to replace the engine.

 

[MRIBOB]

Now after all the thoughts, help, condolenses, ideas.
Have you made a descion yet about replacing it.

Does not seem cost effective to fix yours. ( Based on what I have read)

Now it time to make a choice based on your engine options and ACFDS ( Acute Cash Flow Dificiency Sndome) that you seem to have and many of us have been inflicted with in times past.

So is it a New, Rebuilt, or Used or other ?
You seemed concerned about the warranty that is why I wrote about a after market one. Will a rebuilt (crate) motor have a warranty. Everything in your car will still be under VW warranty expect fot the engine, so not all is lost.


One thought about the poor soul that worked on your car.
If I sent a message and say Can somebody help me do a TB change? And Mr X. says sure, comeover and I do it for $100.00 plus parts in my house. And I sit there and watch him do and my motor blow like yours.

The Bible theology on this situation is: He did you a favor, you were there as a wittness. If it came out ok he did you a big favor. This time you lost but accidents happen.

Now if Mr X. sends a message and says: TB change for $XX.00 over cost. Don't pay the dealer this is my work, pay me instead. He morally ( maybe legally) is responsbile.

Please dont sue the fellow. Thats not my point.
It seems many of the TDI guys are helping you and thats makes it easy to write off the loss. You lost a engine, but have gained a world of friends. YOU ARE A RICH MAN!!!!!!!!!

When you pay full price at a SHOP you get the right to recover LOSSES. SUE them or they have insurance to pay for boo boos. Thats the law and thats why they charge so much.
When you do it yourself or a FRIEND does you a favor, ITS A RISK TO YOU.

My question was was he a Paid stranger or a buddy member helping you. If this was his Part-Time job he should put up some cash if he can.

If he was a buddy, Dont lose your friends over something like this.
Thats just my own thoughts on the matter. Take it with a grain of salt.

I would let the Member work on mine after this.
HE will be the safest TB changer in the WORLD next time.



The good thing about this whole TDI group is to find a group
of complete strangers so willing to help each other out in a time of need just because of a ENGINE we all have.



I wish I had the time and money for the TDI FEST-

 

[reflextdi]

I'm a newbie and not much of a mechanic. One big reason I bought my TDI is because of all the help at this amazing site. I've learned about what kind of oil I should use, about fuel and additives, etc. So maybe I'm not much help in a case like this but I'll make a donation to the engine fund. I see you're a med student so you're probably a little strapped already! Is the previously mentioned paypal account still the place to send it?

 

[DeafBug]

Well, now I am at my mom's ready for the TB change tomorrow morning. Gee 32 posts in the last 5 hours. It is nice to know that the TB installer gave his side of the story. I know we all take risks by DIY or having others doing it for you just to save money and have the job done right. You have to know that and accept that. What difference does it make if MIA replaced the belt himself? I agree that we should be learning from this. It is a shame that it had to happen. I don't think we need to know who is the TB installer. It is not an issue of who and then avoid him like plague. The issue is that a part was giving away and it was a bad timing that it had to be there. (it was mentioned already, wrong time, wrong place.) If he would have more time, he would take the head off to inspect the values. I don't think it was in his mind. I don't think anyone will want to do it. I don't even think the dealer will do it either but if it broke the same way the TB installer said it happened. The dealer will simply replace the engine for they are covered with powertrain warranty. It is just that DIY method gone bad. Period.

I made a post that I broke the guys A/C line a couple months ago when I changed his belt. (I still changed several more after that post. People didn't avoid me.) But it was not intentional, it just happened. Beside when he pulled out the condenser and he found more damages which made it obvious that his car was in an accident as he bought it used. He didn't hold me responsible for it as he was there but I charged him less as I wanted him to get himself some new parts.

I don't think we should be guessing who the TB installer is as all we know is that MIA lives in Indianpolis. (It could be Pete for he once lived in Indiana.

) I will contribute some of the money I will make tomorrow for his new engine.

 

[MIA]

It's not important who the installer is, I have no ill will towards him!

One thought has come to mind after this happened. How about we add an extra charge for TB changes or other regular maintenance. Say $10-$20 to be put in a fund that is handled by a trusted member (Fred anyone?) to pay for catastrophies like this one. If the fund grows too large some of the extra can go towards board maintenance or fund the next years TDI fest. Unfortunately, we would have to go by the honor system and a ton of logistics would have to be ironed out, but I think this would be a great idea. Kind of a win-win for both sides. This could provide insurance to those now leary of having a member change their TB, and provide a net for those that risk making a mistake.

 

[MRIBOB]

Why doesn't TDI go full scale.
Become a new AAA

Charge $10 a year to be a member and post questions on the web. Non members can read but not post.
The money pays for the web site and a insurance policy.

TB changers can get CERTIFIED ( Show proof of tools and 4 or 5 TB changes) Then the excess money from the membership dues can be a insurance policy.

Then if a Certified member makes a error like this there will be help avalible.

I would drive 300 miles to have Certified member change my TB .

With the way this website is I think it would work.
AAA started out with a few members.
I would pay to be a member just to post my questions and get the advice thats on this web site.

How many members are there ?
How much would be in the bank to pay an Administrator if only 25% of the members paid $5.00 or $10.00 a year ?

But then theres always some wag that will come along and say Blow up my TDI so the TDIclub will Pay.
There needs to be some Legal stuff involved any any thing like that.

Who PAYS for the TDICLUB ?
Thanks with all my heart.

 

[tdipoet]

i think we're getting a little crazy here. let's not give fred that kind of liability to deal with, ok? i think the current system works well and still promotes good will. if you turn it into a "right" it will go sour very quickly, and you would probably find more stupid mistakes would happen because "fred's will cover it."

 

[cage]

Thats it! Fred should cover it. If it weren't for his website this never would have happened!!! Just kidding

 

[Boundless]

This engine was not timed properly. That's all there is to it.

I went back to take another look at the engine, the tech showed me where there were some slight marks on all 4 cylinders, basically a ring of soot was missing in the exact size and shape of the valves, but there didn't seem to be much scoring on the piston itself. The tech pointed out at least one other valve is slightly bent, as it did not seat flush with the bottom of the head (sorry I don't know which cylinder it was either the other valve on cylinder #2 or the same (ie intake or exhust) valve on cylinder #3). I didn't inspect the edges of the other valves that closely.

 

[Birdman]

I like what MRIBOB had to say. We all make mistakes i don,t do Belts but do Clusters and Asr units and a few people know i am very careful on both, But the ASR even ANAL because it could lockup all the wheels if something went wrong. AND though i don,t charge for the work I would still feel it was mine to take care of. The post above said the installer was going to take care of it, this is great in todays world people don,t own up to a mistake and we really don't need the name of the person who installed it. IT WAS A MISTAKE most likely happen again in fifty years. But this forum is great with everyone helping out. we Know one person who drove over a 1000 miles to install an engine in a members car for no fee. Now where else would you find that in todays world. Gee with over 60 cars at the GTG last weekend everyone was helping each other, I would hate to lose that because of 1 or 2 mistakes.

 

[oldpoopie]

Gee with over 60 cars at the GTG last weekend everyone was helping each other, I would hate to lose that because of 1 or 2 mistakes.

yeah, what he said (even though I wasnt one of the 60

)

 

[Steve T]

There may be another possibility of what happed. Is it possible that the cam gear may have spun loose (or just partially loose) just as #2 piston was coming up? This would account for the broken valves only in that cylinder. Any thoughts?

Steve

 

[spoilsport]

.. AND though i don,t charge for the work I would still feel it was mine to take care of.

My kinda guy!

Lucky for him, I don't live close by!