Blown engine after TDIclub member TB change

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MIA

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2000
Location
Springfield, IL
TDI
01 Golf, 09 JSW
I apologize about the long post but here goes...

Before we get started: My car is a 2001 Golf GLS Auto with approximately. 38500 miles. No mods ever done to the engine, religiously changed with Delvac 1/CAT oil at 10k intervals. TB kit purchased from Diesel Geek with all the correct part numbers.

(Just to let you know I am not a mechanic and all I can do is present what I remember being told the best I can)

This Saturday I had a respected TDI member change my TB at his house. On startup the engine was louder than normal, making a metallic sound, and putting out a good amount of smoke, I was told to turn the engine off, we looked around and started it again, this time the timing was checked, but I can't remember the exact numbers. We readjusted the timing slightly and started the engine, the timing was checked again, but I can't tell you the numbers exactly. This time the metallic sound was gone, but the engine was running louder than normal. I was told to drive a couple miles to warm up the engine so we could fine-tune the timing afterward. I got a few houses down (and up to 20-30 mph) before the engine started making a louder sound and lost power. At this point I put it in reverse, turned around and almost made it back before it felt like something give away and the engine stopped abruptly and the car coasted a few feet. We pushed it back into the garage because it wouldn't turn over and tried to pull the crank manually but it wouldn't move past a certain point. One cell was thrown that had something to do with injection, but I don't remember exactly which one. Then we pulled the valve cover. One valve stem was sticking up .5-.75 inches with the lifter? lodged under a well-eaten cam lobe, everything else looked fine. The TB changer felt that since the engine ran and only one valve broke that a valve spring or keeper broke to cause this damage (i.e. mechanical failure unrelated to the TB change). We put the engine compartment back together and left in the new TB parts plus new air and fuel filter (i.e. not being dishonest and covering our tracks). I called a tow truck and had it taken to the nearest dealer for tear down and diagnosis. I was told that he knows the belt was installed correctly and that the damage was not due to a timing issue, none the less he felt bad and said if this doesn't get covered I can buy the parts for a new head and he'll repair it. I was also was not charged for the TB change.

The dealer asked about the new Tbelt they found. I told them the belt had just been changed, they immediately said the engine was out of time and would not warranty the damage. At this point all they did was pull the valve cover. I asked, “If you tear the engine down any further would there be any evidence that would lead to a mechanical failure instead?” The response was no! At this point I was quoted $640 to do a complete tear down and I was already in for $200+. I gave the ok to finish. Further investigation showed one broken valve that punched a hole through piston #2 and scored cylinder #2 (i.e. my engine is toast
) The other valves looked good and no apparent damage was found on the other pistons, although I don't know how closely they looked. No other damage was noted, the condition of the valve spring is unknown as it wasn't extracted, but it gave resistance on whatever metal piece the tech was pushing on.

I showed up the next day to see the damage and argue the TB replacer's theory. The Service manager first asks why in the world would I have my TB replaced so early? (This was also the opinion of the shop forman) I responded, "40K is when it is supposed to be changed. When do you think it should?" You'll love the response, 105K!
He further added that I should have received a letter from VW explaining this change. Pissed, I responded, "Do you know anything about a TDI engine." (Oops, but the guy has to be very ignorant about TDI's, remember he's the SERVICE MANAGER) Anyway we argue, look at the damage, I bring up countless times, why did only one valve break and my engine run for as long as it did if the timing was off. His answer is that he has seen several engines with similar damage due to bad timing. I also ask if he had proof the engine was out of time. He said, "No, but I don't need proof." Further he added that since the engine was DOA and the TB was just changed it was in his opinion that the engine was out of time (i.e. enough proof for him to deny my warranty claim). While talking to the service techs he ran off to call the regional rep and gave his story. My conversation with the service tech's revealed that the damage present could not have happened if the engine ran. (i.e. one valve could break and cause the engine to stop right after start up, but not run for any extended period of time) I brought this up with the service manager and he said that he doesn't believe I was able to drive my car and once again he doesn't have to prove his assumption. I was also told that the regional rep agreed with the service manager after a 5-minute conversation without inspecting the engine himself. VW customer service also agrees with the dealership.

Now I'm stuck with a blown engine, a shut case, nobody at VW that will hear my story, and the person that changed the belt insisting that an unrelated mechanical failure caused the damage.

Option 1: The dealer quoted $4800 for a rebuilt engine complete with TB and diagnostic fees. Maybe a little more for some odds and ends. I would have a 12mo/12K warranty. No option for a new engine. I am in for $400 for the diagnostic charge (they dropped the fee since they just tore it down $640 was to put it back together). The day before the service manager showed me a new engine could be installed for $5200 (with some wiggle room for price) and there might be a possible reman for less (estimated $1000 less), either way I would get the remainder of my 100K warranty back. I just talked to the Service Manager again and he insists that I would get the remainder of my warranty back.

Option 2:parts Place offered me either a new long block, without injectors, turbo, and valve cover for $2495 +100 shipping with engine exchange or a new complete engine set up for the manual tranny at $2895 +shipping with exchange.

There's my story for this hell of a week. Where do I go from here? Will this complete engine bolt right onto my auto tranny? Do I just need to transfer the injection pump and keep the larger injectors? More power would be one bright spot from this ordeal. Since my engine warranty is gone, why the hell not?

Luckly, my in-laws have an extra junker available for a second car and they may be able to arrange for transport of my car, but my apartment complex won't let me do any work on it or store it.
 

MRIBOB

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Location
TIJUANA MEXICO
TDI
None- Jetta-0 - Mexico 1
HERE IS WHAT I WOULD DO?
You call the guy who did your TB respected. He may be and this may not be his fault. But maybe it is!
We may never know!
Its nice you did not say who.

He is going to feel bad a long time, I would!
CAN HE HELP STORE THE CAR TILL YOU GET A NEW ENGINE? And can he put the engine in for you? If I could I would for free.
If he can: Think about this option.

You can buy a warranty from the 1sourceautowarranty or Warrantygold for power train for $300 to $600.

Put the cheapest engine you can get that has some warranty then take your chances on a After market internet Warranty to cover the engine till 100k. READ ALL THE FINE PRINT about engine changes if there is any.

Wish I could help you.
This story makes me tremble when it comes time for a TB change. Would have been cheaper at a dealer. If they mess up just VOA has to pay the penny.
 

MOGolf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
underneath something
TDI
2001 Golf GLS TDI Reflex silver, rough road suspension and steel skid plate, 2004 Passat Variant, Candy White, rough road suspension and geared balanced shaft module, and much, much more. 2016 LR RR HSE TD6, 2019 Jaguar I-PACE
The basic TDI engine is the same whether manual or automatic. However, the manual tranny engine would have a flywheel where the automatic has a drive plate. It is a matter of a few parts to remove from old, remove from new, install from old. The injection pump should be transferred from the old. If the new engine comes with a pump, then you have an injection pump worth a couple $$ to sell when some one else has a pump failure. Technically the intake manifold is different between the auto and manual too, but I couldn't tell you what the difference is off hand. ETKA shows different part numbers. It is definitely your choice about the injectors.

Drivbiwire once took a complete engine from Parts Place (set up for an automatic) and installed it in a manual tranny car. Slightly the reverse, but it demonstrates that it is possible and I mention it to add to your comfort level.

I am inclined to side with the TB installer for the failure analysis. It doesn't happen often, statistically writing, but valves have been known to drop into engines (any make). It was just dumb luck of timing (pardon the pun).

As for the louder than normal noise you mention at first startup, *some* of that may be related to the fuel filter change. You didn't mention if the filter was filled with diesel fuel, or just additive. If the latter, it will definitely sound louder on initial startup and until diesel fuel starts flowing through. But that would not cause valve and engine damage.

Good luck with your decision and I hope your quickly back on the TDI road.
 

tornado

Active member
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA
TDI
NB '99 Yellow
A very sad story indeed. From the sounds of it, I'd have to side with the dealer's diagnosis, at least at face value. Having a valve thrown right after the TB swap is just too coincidental. You did say the engine sounded rough right after the very first startup...maybe this is where major/terminal damage was inflicted. Despite shutting down quickly & making an adjustment, there was no stopping the rest of the process. If the TB was just one tooth off, it might explain why only one valve was severely mangled.

When I did my first TB on a Rabbit GTi gas engine, I couldn't get it to start. No matter how many time I re-checked the settings it was no go. After many hours, I finally realized the alignment mark I was using on the cam sproket was 180 deg away from the correct mark (why were there two in the first place on VW knows!). Flipped it over and all was well. Luckily the GTi engie was not interference type and all was well.

Mike.
 

KzoPfumes

Active member
Joined
Apr 18, 2003
Location
Portage MI
TDI
2001 Jetta GLS TDI Baltic Green
MIA I feel your pain but am a lot luckier than you (let me explain). I bought a 2001 Jetta GLS TDI w/ 77K a month ago. After driving it 3 weeks (2,700 miles)the engine blew! Guess what cylinder? #2 due to a hole blown through the piston. Now having said that the dealership had just performed the 80K maintenance which included replacing the TB. I was given a 30 day powertrain warranty by the dealership so they said they would replace the engine. At first with a new one then they said one with 30/40K. I am ending up with a new one because there was only a $100 difference between a used one with 30K and a new one. The first thing I asked the Service Writer was did the engine blow due to the timing belt. He quickly said no and said the timing belt had not slipped(this is after he just got telling me he had to check with the techs to see what they found). I will never know what really happened to my engine but at least I am getting a new one (feel bad for you!). I do know from calling another dealership you looking at $3,500 for a new engine including taxes. Good luck and please let me know what happens with your situation.
 

MIA

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2000
Location
Springfield, IL
TDI
01 Golf, 09 JSW
I can flip the bill, but don't have the expertise/space to do the swap. I'd just like to know if I still have a claim with VW, if this was a timing error, or if I'm just stuck in the middle having to cough up everything. I would love it if a few gearheads could take a look at the damage before the evidence has to go back to Parts Place. From what I've learned from this site, this damage doesn't go along with mis-timing. I'll need some hard evidence to force VW into rectifying this situation.
 

tdipoet

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Location
hooksett, nh
TDI
'11 Jetta TDI
MIA, I feel your pain. Sometimes things happen during tb changes that you just can't predict. like broken camshafts.

MIA, do you have paypal? if you don't, set one up! i don't know about anyone else, but if i can help you out financially in this, even a little, i'd like to. it really doesn't sound like this was anyone's fault - these things happen.

fellow diesel drivers: we've all saved cash from club assistance, be it actual labor, or advice, or buying a 50 cent rubber hose instead of a new turbo. let's channel some of that money saved to give MIA a hand - it could be any one of us telling this story.
 

weedeater

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 17, 2001
Location
Reston, VA
TDI
Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
Frankly, I'd like to know how bad the #2 cylinder is, if all the others are ok. If all you need to do is to replace the piston and rod, it shouldn't be that pricey.
 

weedeater

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 17, 2001
Location
Reston, VA
TDI
Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
oh yes.

If that dealer thinks the automatic from a '01 can go 100k miles on a belt, tell him you want to see that in writing. Frankly, I've never heard of it, and I'm not aware of any such letter writing campaign from VWoA.
 

LanduytG

Vendor
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Greenfield, IN
TDI
99 NB 82 Westfalia Diesel
While talking to the service techs he ran off to call the regional rep and gave his story. My conversation with the service tech's revealed that the damage present could not have happened if the engine ran.
No other damage was noted, the condition of the valve spring is unknown as it wasn't extracted, but it gave resistance on whatever metal piece the tech was pushing on
I feel that VW treats us like they did the Jews during WWII. You’re a Jew till you can prove your not. Have your repair work done here or don’t bring it back if something totally unrelated happens because we will not honor the warranty. I the past 25 years I have had to perform failure analysis on many different types of equipment. When you do failure analysis you take nothing for granted and do not make any claims as to the cause until all evidence is in. To be able to do this you need a very good working knowledge of how the equipment works. I would have to say that VW or at least this stealership has no idea how to perform such and analysis and we already know they don’t know much about the TDI. It make my skin crawl when business cannot or will not step up to the plate and give us the customer service we deserve.

Greg
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Here is my suggestion:

Inspect the tops of all four pistons for dents from the valves, if all four pistons have valve imprints the timing was not set correctly.

If there is only one valve imprint on the #2 VW owes you a motor plain and simple.

Now with that said and without pointing blame I would prefer to see a paypal account set up on MIA's behalf and those people here who have saved some $$ over the years could chip in and help cover this unfortunate incident regardless of who or what is at fault for the failure.

As they say $hit happens and nobody is perfect, no machine is perfect so it goes back to the forums promoting goodwill to one another and helping out when we can.

I am willing to throw in the first $50.00 towards the new engine and see if somebody in the area can step up to the plate and get MIA's engine installed for him.

The last thing I would want to see is that people lose heart in the good that happens when we help each other out. Anyway I am with TDIPoet in regards to the Papal Idea!

DB
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Check your email address, you put a period at the end and that could mess up a funds transfer

The correct email is:

mialink@iupui.edu

DB
 

DeafBug

Gone but Never Forgotten: Requiescat In Pace
Joined
Sep 22, 2000
Location
Twin Cities in MN
TDI
2001 NB
Wow! Sorry to hear that. But it is not going to stop me from changing a TB I have this Saturday for a member. I still will change it. I asked him to pay for my time. I will donate some of it for your engine.

BTW, any ideas what can cause the piston to get "holed" Is there something we can do to prevent that or check if it is incorrect? How to correct it? Sounds like a new post for this.
 

pghPAtdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2003
Location
Nova Scotia to Pittsburgh and back
TDI
Jetta GLS, 2001, White, Leather
That is definately a depressing story. I feel for you as well as the member who did the TB change. I'm sure he is having trouble sleeping, I know I would.

Does this help you at all? I'm not sure if any of these are close to you or even options, I'm new to the Tdi scene. Ebay Engine

Ebay Engine 2



2002
Engine
Volkswagen Jetta run & check (stock #F0203087) $2200 All Foreign Auto and Truck Parts USA-NE(Omaha) 1-800-323-2947
web page parts@AllForeignAuto.com

Good luck
Dave
 

boucanier

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2001
Location
quebec,canada
TDI
2002 BLUE LAGOON
mia 1 you have mail and i have all the part you may need to fix your engine including a complete head, i think you can fix your car for less then 350,00$.

also do you have any pictures?
 

Herm TDI

Vendor
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Location
Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
TDI
2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
Howdy DeafBug

Thats an interesting question...
How to check / prevent this ....in the TB procedure it mandates that you MANUALY rotate the eng/crank two full rotations PRIOR to starting the engine.
When I do a TB ...once I verifi that the Cam sproket is torqued to 33Ft Lb with the cam & crank and pump at TDC.
I then remove the pump pin and set the tensioner....Then I rotate the engine manually two full rotations as the book tells you....if you do this step...This prevents you from starting the eng with the static timing out of alignment.
If you have the static timing out of wack at this step...you'll feel it...the engine will not rotate through.
If you did everything correctly...then the only resistance you'll feel as you rotate the engine manually will be the normal compression.
 

tongsli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2000
Location
Baltimore, MD
TDI
2000 Jetta TDI, 2004, Jetta Wagon TDI PD
I have mixed feelings about keeping the identity of the individual who worked on your car.

I fully understand why you have chosen to do so, and I am not looking for anyone to be further injured by this terrible incident.

At the risk of seeming insensitive by stating the obvious, I sincerely hope that everyone involved can learn something from this experience so that it doesn't happen again to another person and to the person who performed the timing belt change.

Give John at Impex a call and see if he's got, or will be getting any TDI engines. Also, Nathan Bernard may have a used 110hp TDI sitting around at a good price.

SVTWEB plans on replacing his 2002 ALH but I don't think he's ready yet.

I don't remember what your outlined options were, but trying to get VW to replace it seems like a long shot to me. I don't think I'd put much hope with that option.

Good luck,

Lito
 

Braindead.

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Location
47.11815N, 70.59086W
TDI
jetta,00,silver
I will be doing a timing belt change in the near future and it's a little scary hearing stories like this. I am definately going to remember to do two manual rotations after finishing up.
Do you know if this was a by-the-book TB change, or was it the 'Mark and Pray' method? The reason I ask is because I'm on the fence about whether or not to get the specialized tools necessary to do a 'BTB' TB change.
 

Snowman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Location
Elmira, Ontario
TDI
2012 Jetta TDI
Sorry to hear about your situation.
I would definitely want to inspect those lobes to verify the actual reason for the failure as DBW alluded to. Just because the SM and the Rep. decided over the phone that it's not their fault, does not make it so. If the other TDIer didn't screw up, he needs to know and so do you.

I did my first timing belt about 7 months ago. It took me longer than I expected, but you better believe that I double checked and triple checked all of my work along the way. And yes, the double rotation is a must for verifying your work. My wife was in the garage when I started it up. She was watching me intently when I started it, as if to say to herself "if the car dies....you die".
 

BlueflameSP

Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Location
Minnesota
TDI
1999 New Beetle 5-Speed
Sorry to here about your engine, I have a head I would sell if you are interested. I would like $400 for it, It came off a '99 NB TDI with 28K on it. The block was cracked from a collison so I salvaged the head off it. Everything appears to be good on it. E mail me if you are interested Kurt.adelman@tennantco.com I can take pictures of it and send them to you over the weekend if needed.

Parting with the head will allow me to do the Stage 2 spec clutch that I desperately need!!
 

Steve T

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2000
Location
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
MIA,

Was the intake port also cleaned? If so, there have been cases where pieces of carbon have found their way down the intake ports and have wedged themselves in the valve seats. If they hold the valve open enough the piston will contact the valve. Could something else have fallen into the intake when the pipe was off? Also, it is imperative that the crank shaft is manually rotated 2 full revolutions prior to starting the engine (as mentioned above-but still needs to be stressed).

Braindead,

I have done several TB changes and would not use the mark and pray method (also, a Vag-Com is a must, just my opinion-please don't blast me). If you can wait, someone will probably have a TB change GTG in the area. There was one last month in Dorchester. There is always plenty of help and tools available (I usually bring mine along and help out too).

Steve
 

DeafBug

Gone but Never Forgotten: Requiescat In Pace
Joined
Sep 22, 2000
Location
Twin Cities in MN
TDI
2001 NB
Howdy DeafBug

Thats an interesting question...
How to check / prevent this ....in the TB procedure it mandates that you MANUALY rotate the eng/crank two full rotations PRIOR to starting the engine.
When I do a TB ...once I verifi that the Cam sproket is torqued to 33Ft Lb with the cam & crank and pump at TDC.
I then remove the pump pin and set the tensioner....Then I rotate the engine manually two full rotations as the book tells you....if you do this step...This prevents you from starting the eng with the static timing out of alignment.
If you have the static timing out of wack at this step...you'll feel it...the engine will not rotate through.
If you did everything correctly...then the only resistance you'll feel as you rotate the engine manually will be the normal compression.
That's exactly what I have been doing in all the TB changes. Question is that if something goes wrong. What do you do? I have to tell you this. Everything has gone right when I do timing belts. The only thing I fear is that if something goes wrong and I don't know what to do to correct the problem. But then again, I know if you have done everything correctly, what can go wrong? This engine failure is one thing. The other thing is which I have seen to others is failure to start the car. Then it has been corrected to start it. I know Murphy's law, It will go wrong. So far all the TB changes I have done was perfect. I keep having this gut feeling that who is the guy that I am going to ruin his engine.

Sorry for invading this post. I think we should start up a new post for "Things that can go wrong and how to correct it on TB changes even if you have followed the TB procedures"
 
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