Blown engine after TDIclub member TB change

[spinfire]

I was thinking along the same lines. If only the #2 cylinder was damaged, it seems likely to me that it could be foreign object damage. Either a piece of carbon broken loose, or something which accidentally dropped into the intake.

 

[GeWilli]

hopefully not a case of getting the Camshaft off by 180º Big time bummer.

Was it running right before the change? (I assume it was). I think about this when helping people do a timing belt change . . this possibility, kinda scarry, but if it is just the #2 it most likely isn't from the timing belt.

And the comment about two full revolutions before starting . . . YUP do that sometimes one and a half, sometimes three and a half turns. . . Sometimes I'm so focused on getting the timing perfect i get teh motor mount on before the middle belt cover (had to put that in there to make DBW laugh).

Good luck resolving it. Pull the head (pretty simple) and check it out, figure out if you NEED to change the engine first or just need to find a machine shop and some parts (or someone with a press) . . . G

 

[mrGutWrench]

(snip) ... if it is just the #2 it most likely isn't from the timing belt.

__. Yeah, that's the thing that keeps jumping out at me. I've never had any experience with TDI's mangling valves (only gasser engines) but the fact that it's only one piston/valve set makes me suspicious that it's anything to do with the timing of the cam -- if that were the root cause (and the engine ran long enough for you to drive down the street) I'd expect to see evidence that all the valves had hit pistons.

__. So, if we assume that it's not the timing (and therefore, not anything directly to do with the process of the timing belt change), that leaves the big question -- what else caused the problem. As people noted before, the two big candidates are 1) broken valve spring (or dislodged collets or keepers,etc) or 2) foreign body that jammed the valve and made it hit the piston.

__. Seems to me that VW has an "out" to deny you your warranty but if it was #1 above, they really do owe it to you. If it was #2, I guess that is an arguable case.

__. My take on it is that you the timing belt change process didn't cause the direct problem. Maybe an error in the change (dropping a foreign object into the intake, although I can't for the life of me BEGIN to understand how that could happen) could be responsible, but that seems unlikely to me.

__. Sounds as if you were just kinda "wrong place, wrong time". I can understand VW's position, but IMO they owe you the warranty.
BH, SENC

 

[GeWilli]

The FOD definately could be the problem . . . but dislogdging some EGR gunk might have done it and then the question becomes is that a warranty issue?

Did the gunk dislodge itself?

IIRC it was the #2 cylinder that JETahh had a problem with carbon getting in there and locking the engine . . . easiest route for large bits of debris from the EGR . . . some of those bits are very HARD

 

[dzljet]

Uh ohh!! Big can of worms Gewilli.

I would suggest evaluate how much time you can have the car down and see if you can be patient with dealer. Again, these guys are only good with what their familiar with or rather, what they see everyday. Now how I would do it, is make it clear (nicely) that if the work is not covered, then you will be taking the car out to have it done. They will be left with either, make some money on warranty or "good faith" payment or make nothing. (except current $) That may inspire them to "help" you get it covered, or it may not. They may have a grudge in people doing work and trying to avoid their steep costs. (I'm thinking of the $60 a dealer by me charges for draining the fuel water separator) Most important for us to know right now, was anything else worked on during this TB change?

I'm remembering this case where a member was not telling the whole story on here and it caused a good deal of trouble. VW and dealers in general are protective of warranty work (in most cases, but I know of some real shady dealings of dealer personnel) so it's not like they can't loosely interpret stuff if they feel compelled to do, rather than just saying "warranty denied!" "WHY?"
"Because we make more money that way, and VW, likes it too, so they will support us 100%."

 

[runonbeer]

this is why my hands are shaking as the guy drives around my neighborhood while i get vag com set up.

I can provide no insight as to the failure but...tdipoet and DBW are definitely on here. the phenomenal forum support we have all utilized IS reciprocal.
MIA, sorry to hear about your situation and I hope it all works out.

TTT

 

[mailman]

I would find it VERY hard to believe that if the timing were off only one cylinder would be damaged. A more thorough inspection of the remaining cylinders and valves is required to see if there are any signs of contact damage. If so, the the damage is likely timing related. If not, something other than timing is the cause ... probably loosened up gunk inside the intake manifold from all the jarring during the TB change, maybe a loose part found its way in the intake, etc.

 

[TDI_ESEL]

Was the engine rotated twice by hand before starting? Was everything locked down after TDC was made? Was TDC made?

 

[Birdman]

I think i would get the BBB involved. I have seem them tear down an engine to find out what caused the problem. Worth a try anyway. IF not try www.car-part.com for a used engine they usally have decent prices. And if you can find out what all is bad maybe Freds members will have the parts.

 

[concours]

Sorry to hear about the problem. There is not a snowball's chance in Hell that VW is going to pay to repair it. Get on with finding the parts you need. I know it's not what you want to hear, but it's reality. Again, sorry.

 

[MIA]

I went back to take another look at the engine, the tech showed me where there were some slight marks on all 4 cylinders, basically a ring of soot was missing in the exact size and shape of the valves, but there didn't seem to be much scoring on the piston itself. The tech pointed out at least one other valve is slightly bent, as it did not seat flush with the bottom of the head (sorry I don't know which cylinder it was either the other valve on cylinder #2 or the same (ie intake or exhust) valve on cylinder #3). I didn't inspect the edges of the other valves that closely.

 

[riddei]

the tech showed me where there were some slight marks on all 4 cylinders

Ruh-row...

 

[POWERSTROKE]

So this means that it is a timing belt installation error or no?

 

[GoFaster]

The last bit of information suggests that the cam timing was off.

hate to say it again, but this step is critical: Remove locking tools and rotate crankshaft forward two full rotations by hand, then check that the locking tools can be re-inserted with the flywheel mark at the correct position

if this is the case, VW doesn't owe anything (sorry to say it but that's the way it is) ... they cannot warranty something that the owner or a third party F's up.

good luck; if it were me I'd buy a complete engine ...

 

[Steve T]

I agree with Brian. It looks as though the cam timing was out by a bit. There was probably a bit of carbon on the #2 piston or valve that ate up any clearance between the two as the piston was coming up and the valve closing.

Sorry about the damage.

Steve

 

[DeafBug]

Thanks, Brian

I have had that myself. Not sure what happened but I have seen it. After I turn the engine over twice, I can insert the pump pin and lock the cam but the TDC mark is off. I start over. Take the belt out and realign it then put the belt on. In some case, the TDC mark would be close to the position it should be in (the mark on the case) But knowing if I redo it with one tooth moved it would be way off. So I have done it myself. Sometimes I would play around with it to get some better observation on how much the TDC mark moves if you jump one tooth at the crankshaft. But I of course have it correct before reassembling everything. Alright, thanks for giving me a little assurance but still...

But still I would like to know what caused #2 to get "holed." I know there are some guesses.

 

[POWERSTROKE]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB3&Number=498815&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1
Is this what happened to your motor? Is this the same instance or no?
Does this story relate to yours? Just wondering. Because if it does not, then maybe there is a valve spring problem inherent in certain production #'s?

 

[Drivbiwire]

I went back to take another look at the engine, the tech showed me where there were some slight marks on all 4 cylinders, basically a ring of soot was missing in the exact size and shape of the valves, but there didn't seem to be much scoring on the piston itself. The tech pointed out at least one other valve is slightly bent, as it did not seat flush with the bottom of the head (sorry I don't know which cylinder it was either the other valve on cylinder #2 or the same (ie intake or exhust) valve on cylinder #3). I didn't inspect the edges of the other valves that closely.

With that bit of evidence I am just about 99.9% certain the only plausible cause is installation error of the timing belt. That along withthe "Metallic" sounds when starting further cements the possibility that the cam was off just enough to let the engine run yet allow the pistons to hit the opening and closing valves.

Since the engine did run the odds are the repetative hits the pistons made on the valves caused one of the lifters in this case the #2 to finally fail from the stress of trying to be compressed between the piston and cam and finally it shattered (always happens when timing is off).

Since this is an automatic I suspect that you guys may have set the wrong TDC mark in the window, very likely.

The hard starting may have been due to a slip in the timing belt relative to the crank timing.

Anyway, enough said on the topic now lets figure out how we can get you back on the road in the shortest period time.

DB

 

[vincere]

I sent a small donation to your engine fund. I would hope others do the same.
Dave

 

[Birdman]

I have had to pull off the cam because i did not check that the timing mark on the crank was still at TDC. The engine would turn over and start. BUT it was loud so i tried to reinsert the timeing tools and it would not line up. I pulled the cam. turned the crank to TDC then reinstalled the cam and installed the timing tools when i tightened down the tenioner i check the crank this time and it had move so far i could not see the mark at all. had to move it back and retighten the tensioner till it was right on. ALways check that the crank stays in place. I would bet thats what happened here and if he charged you he should step forward and help with a engine to replace the blown one. Everyone makes goofs once in a while. so we all can help with the paypal account.

 

[jjvincent]

I hope we all learned a valuable lesson here.

This scenario is played out every day on various types of vehicles. This is the dark side of free or almost free help. This reminds me of the Porsche 911 and 944 days when we would see problems like this. Once in a while, a car would come in that would have the valves bent and it just had a timing belt (or chain) replaced.

I can think of one time that it was a coincidence. A 944 came in that wouldn’t run. We determined the belt broke upon turning it over. Taking the cover off, we found the belt was perfect and in time. We assumed that someone broke a belt and then put on a new one, only to find out that the valves were bent. Upon talking to the owner, he informed us that a fellow PCA member (and 944 guru) just changed the belt 500 miles ago. Now we knew exactly what happened (from experience). The cam bolt came loose and sheared off the key. Porsche had put out a TSB out a few years before to change the bolt to the newer version, that wouldn’t come loose. Did the belt change cause the bolt to come loose? Probably not. Did we always change the bolt on a belt change? Yes, preventative maintenance and experience in seeing other cars with this problem. Was the owner understanding with the guy who changed the belt? Not really. What happened? The guy who changed the belt went 50/50 with the owner on the repairs.

Just beware, that if this (timing belt failure) happens to the wrong person the person who did the repairs can have a problem on their hands. My fathers business was the third party on a lawsuit where the owner was suing Porsche on a belt breakage, on a 944 Turbo. A 944 “expert” neighbor replaced the belt and it broke after 1200 miles. The owner claimed that it was a defective belt (bought from a Porsche dealer). What happened? We found out that the guy who did the repairs, tightened the balance shaft belt (replaced along with the cam belt) way too tight. The balance shaft belt broke and caused the cam belt to fail. We noticed that the tensioner on the balance shaft belt was in the wrong position. We marked the position, loosened it and then installed a new belt. We tightened the tensioner to the marked position. Then we used Porsche’s $500 belt tension gauge to check it. It was about twice as tight as the specs called out for. Then what happened? The owner sued the guy who did the belt and then they finally settled out of court. We fixed the car and the bill was about $3500.

I would still like to see some pictures of the pistons and valves. There has to be someone there locally who can help you out (plus the guy who did the belt change). If possible, have a third party look at the car and make sure that an out of time belt was the problem. It still could be a coincidence and someone with a little more experience with engines can really help you out and steer you in the right direction.

Have a GTG in your area. I bet if enough of you tackle an engine change it could be done over a weekend. Try to get a complete engine (Modern Imports in St.Louis is a good place also (314)638-6040) as it will make the change quicker and you don’t have to change over too many parts. For the payback, let the person who lets you use their garage, have the old engine. They can sell off any of the old good parts to other members here on this site.

 

[Drivbiwire]

IF the valve did not fall in the cylinder then there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER that a new head could not be installed and send you on your way. Even if you have sever dimples from the pistons hitting the valves they will be just fine since all the combustion occurs in the bowl NOT on top in the valve recesses.

I suggest locating a TDI head and install it. Used is fine, just clean it up and DO NOT try and resurface the head.

Since all the valves hit the pistons DO NOT attempt to reuse any of them if you try and repair the head.

Contact Bkmetz, he has a whole set of valves springs and lifters that I can give to you, just reimburse him for shipping. Order BRAND NEW valve guides and replace every one of them.

That should get you going ASAP!

DB

 

[tongsli]

I sent a small donation to your engine fund. I would hope others do the same.

already sent

 

[TDI_ESEL]

Good Lord. I mean, I could see it if the guy needed a new kidney. But, seriously, here folks...let's get some perspective.

Donate to the "engine" fund? Yikes. Where's that "Life is more than just TDIs" guy when we need him.

I sent a small donation to your engine fund. I would hope others do the same.

 

[Larry Larson]

For what it's worth I had a 16 valve Mitsubishi interference engine that broke the timing belt. When I took the head off, there were small dents in the top of all 4 pistons. I didn't know any better, so I had the head redone (all 16 valves were bent bad) and I put it back on. It ran fine for another 160,000 (miles with regularly scheduled timing belt replacements, of course!) Larry

 

[GeWilli]

Where's that "Life is more than just TDIs" guy when we need him.

you mean me?

I'm here

 

[jjvincent]

If an engine (or any other) failure was caused by the dealer, VW, independent repair shop, neighbor or fellow TDI mamber, then shouldn't that party be paying for the repairs? I understand how we all feel for this person and the dilemma that they are in, but why should we all chip in? If the party at fault was such an "expert" then shouldn't they be bending over backwards and getting this car back on the road.

This reminds me when I used to work for my father. When I would screw up, it came out of my pay. I put a seal kit in a Audi 4000 automatic transmission. Two months later, the transmission had a slipping second gear (the customer brought it in on a Thursday night). We discovered that I did not readjust the preload on the second gear brake band. Guess what, the brake band burnt up and sent clutch material all throughout the transmission. I had to buy (out of my own pocket) a used transmission, put in a new seal kit, install the transmission over the weekend (on my own time) and then deliver the car on Sunday afternoon to the customer (so he wouldn't be out of a car).

I know that this story seems "high and mighty" but lets get real. If everyone pulled together, then people donating their time should be enough (just like I stated in my previous post).

If the dealer or an independent shop screwed up the job we would be all over their case. Everyone would be screaming how they (dealer or shop) should pay for everything. Since another person who posts on this site, did the job, then we want to help out. By that logic, I need a new clutch since I put on a tuning box. Since I post here, then everyone should feel sorry for me and start sending me money for my "clutch fund". BTW; I want to race a TDI in the Grand Am Cup but don't have the money. Please send your money to my "I want to go race a TDI" fund. Trust me, I can get it (a TDI) approved with no problem since Grand Am needs the entries. As soon as I hit $200K, the you'll see the TDI represented in sportscar racing in the US.

 

[Gary Miyakawa]

In the forsale section, there is a used head for $200 with valves...

Gary M

 

[riddei]

This Saturday I had a respected TDI member change my TB at his house.

If an engine (or any other) failure was caused by the dealer, VW, independent repair shop, neighbor or fellow TDI mamber, then shouldn't that party be paying for the repairs? I understand how we all feel for this person and the dilemma that they are in, but why should we all chip in? If the party at fault was such an "expert" then shouldn't they be bending over backwards and getting this car back on the road.

Wow... This is a tough one. I don't know if a lay-person legally owe's you a new engine. Morally, if it proves to be that the timing was off, due to their mistake, (as seems likely from what is described here) they do owe you <font color="red"> big time!</font>

Legally, that's what you get by not going to a licensed repair facility (Caveat Emptor: Let the Buyer Beware!)

I hope that the "respected member" chimes in here and gives us their take of the situation. This is sad, and scary.

 

[jjvincent]

Legally, that's what you get by not going to a licensed repair facility (Caveat Emptor: Let the Buyer Beware!)

Yes, a lay person does legally owe you an engine (I have personally seen this happen). This is the exact reason why you become incorporated or a LLC. If an incorporated repair shop ruined your engine, you would not be able to sue the owner, only the corporation. Yes, if the owner intentially tried to ruin your engine, the you could go after him but let's stick to this situation. For example; if I ran into your car with my personal car and caused $3000 in damage to your car and had no insurance, would I legally owe you? If I ran into you and was driving an ABC, Inc. delivery truck, would I or ABC, Inc. owe you? From my knowledge, ABC, Inc. would owe you. I hope you see the point.