WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story

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DuluthRooster

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slojoe said:
Andy, I'm interested in what kind of mileage you're getting with your VNT-17, RC3, etc., currently in the wagon?
Driving home 725 miles from Missouri I got 680 miles on the tank and averaged 43.7 mpg. That was driving 10 over with a couple of 100 plus bursts to dislodge a pesky 5-series beemer near Nashville :). Not bad for an automatic with an "off balanced" tune. I am still running RC3 setup for stock turbo and Sprint 520's. Aligator tune on the way from Kerma.:cool:
 
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BioDiesel

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"My opinion is that making sure your injectors are popping correctly and not leaking is the difference between a destroyed engine and one that has WVO life expectancy."

Good advice. A well known SVO kit maker advises rebuilding the injectors at conversion. Few do.
Another SVO veteran advises rebuilding the injectors every 60K.
 

nicklockard

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Chasee said:
I'm no chemist. But the theory is that a plant-based engine oil will not polymerize when diluted with biodiesel or WVO as it is designed for this. Plantomot and Biomot are both oils that are used all over EU specifically for this.
Vegetable oil based lubricants are no less likely to polymerize at temperature and pressure in the mildly acidic environment of a crankcase.

In fact, some of the best lubricants, in use in racing applications up until the 1950's were Castor oil (this is where the brand name "Castrol" is derived from.) However, racing teams abandoned them in favor of petroleum based lubricants, which had poorer lubricity, because the Castor oil was known to form gums and varnishes (polymerize.)

Many organic molecules with double bonds (unsaturated) have the potential to polymerize, especially those with a vinyl carbon(s.)


Edit to add: There are also oils known as "drying oils." Linseed oil is a good example. If you have worked with wood you know it makes a good varnish. One very simple experimental way home brewers and waste vegetable oil users can determine if thier oil source may varnish is to simply paint some from each collected batch on a piece of scrap wood and expose it to daylight. If it forms a hard, dry varnish in a day or two, it will very likely polymerize in your crankcase too. If it remains wet to the touch it likely will not. This is by no means definitive, but perhaps it can help give a rough go/no-go type decision for each collection batch of WVO.
 
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slojoe

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DuluthRooster said:
Driving home 725 miles from Missouri I got 680 miles on the tank and averaged 43.7 mpg. That was driving 10 over with a couple of 100 plus bursts to dislodge a pesky 5-series beemer near Nashville :). Not bad for an automatic with an "off balanced" tune. I am still running RC3 setup for stock turbo and Sprint 520's. Aligator tune on the way from Kerma.:cool:
That's pretty good mileage for a modded wagon!
 

BioDiesel

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Clarification on polymerization

Nick posted:

"Vegetable oil based lubricants are no less likely to polymerize at temperature and pressure in the mildly acidic environment of a crankcase."

It's not the crankcase lube that polymerizes, but the unburned VO fuel thats mixed in with the crankcase oil. POsted a pic. a year ago, looked like a thick black rope ni the bottom of the pan.
FWIR, the VO is prone to polymerize if concentrations get close to 10%.
This happens in the presense of petroleum based cranckase oils, but won't happen in the presense of a vegetable oil based crankcase oil.

Nicks test for drying may work, but JourneyToForever has a Drying Index table for various oils. Linseed
is the highest at 130 ( iirc ). Canola is around 100, and soy at 105-110.
One TDI'er who accidentaly ran linseed did ruin his engine.
If you get significant ( > 10% ) portions of VO in your crankcase, you should assume that it will polymerize as it has exposure to heat and air, unless you're running a veg-oil based crankcase oil.
 
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nicklockard

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BioDiesel said:
Nick posted:

"Vegetable oil based lubricants are no less likely to polymerize at temperature and pressure in the mildly acidic environment of a crankcase."

It's not the crankcase lube that polymerizes, but the unburned VO fuel thats mixed in with the crankcase oil. FWIR, the VO is prone to polymerize if concentrations get close to 10%.
I'm aware of that.

BD said:
This happens in the presense of petroleum based cranckase oils, but won't happen in the presense of a vegetable oil based crankcase oil.
Ummmm, why? Please support this (rather large and blanket-like and very hard to swallow) claim.
 

BioDiesel

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"Ummmm, why? Please support this (rather large and blanket-like and very hard to swallow) claim."

I can't. As I said earlier, I'm not a chemist. I'm just passing along wisdom.
If you can speak German, ask at www.fmso.de

Now that I have some veggie-based crankcase oil, I should be able to do a stovetop experiment and prove it. Or I can ship quart to you Nick.
Onother poster said that they heated a sample of VO diluted c.c.o. on a stove at 350*F (?) for 1 1/2 hours and found it later with 'string' or 'rope' inside. This is getting OT, so please start another thread to discuss further.
 
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BioDiesel

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LoveMyVW

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hey there this is totally of the subject but im interested in the eurojet smic was it an easy install and were do u get 1???
 

Franko6

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The only thing that I noticed about the Eurojet intercooler was it seemed to hold the fender a bit forward from where it was intended. there is a shroud that needs to be modified and the air dam just seems to hang in place.

Thanks for the 'thumbs up" on checking injectors. Of the ones I have seen, the bodies have a polymer coating internally. I don't know if my limited viewpoint is valid, as I also only see the ones that have hydro-locked or otherwise blown up. That gives me a bit of a unrealistic viewpoint.
 

DuluthRooster

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LoveMyVW said:
hey there this is totally of the subject but im interested in the eurojet smic was it an easy install and were do u get 1???
There were no instructions with the Eurojet so I used the instructions that are posted on the TyrolSport site for their SMIC. You must remove the right headlight, right fender liner, and washer bottle. There is some trimming of the plastic under the washer bottle. The old air shroud is too small and Tyrol says their testing showed it made little difference. I just pinched it in place on the front of the Eurojet and the bumper holds it on place. I also changed to a 3 bar MAP for the VNT-17/22.

I got the Eurojet from Kerma. Its real purty. Too bad you cant see it when installed :D
 

danalinscott

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Your post has had positive effects.

Andy..thank you for posting this.
Very few folks are willing to post news that they feel indicate a failure. But experimentation is in fact usually one failure after another with improvements in between...eventually leading to more and more success.
Your post here was almost immediately linked to in several of the VO conversion forums. I saw it HERE. It generated quite a bit of discussion on what had probably occcurred and how to prevent it from occurring in the future. Several folks with over a decade of VO conversion experience participated..including the designer of the kit you used. I have a respect for his choosing to do so similar to that I have for you choosing to share this unfortunate event with us.
As a result of THAT discussion a short "tutorial" is being created HERE that will be archived and linked to in as many VO conversion related forums/discussions as possible. Hopefully this will significantly reduce the number of individuals who repeat your experience in the future.

Again..thank you for sharing this with us all.
We are all a bit richer because you were "man" enough to do that.
 

DuluthRooster

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danalinscott said:
Andy..thank you for posting this.
Very few folks are willing to post news that they feel indicate a failure. But experimentation is in fact usually one failure after another with improvements in between...eventually leading to more and more success.
Your post here was almost immediately linked to in several of the VO conversion forums. I saw it HERE. It generated quite a bit of discussion on what had probably occcurred and how to prevent it from occurring in the future. Several folks with over a decade of VO conversion experience participated..including the designer of the kit you used. I have a respect for his choosing to do so similar to that I have for you choosing to share this unfortunate event with us.
As a result of THAT discussion a short "tutorial" is being created HERE that will be archived and linked to in as many VO conversion related forums/discussions as possible. Hopefully this will significantly reduce the number of individuals who repeat your experience in the future.

Again..thank you for sharing this with us all.
We are all a bit richer because you were "man" enough to do that.
Thanks for the post, Dana :)

I hope that my post has in some way benefited this community that I so much respect. I can see why many that fail go quietly since it has been hard being called everything from incompetent to negligent on various boards. I respect this community of alternative fuelers and wish for us all to learn how to do this better. Chasee and others are having great success with these conversions.

Most of all I have the utmost respect for the maker of my conversion kit. I would never want this to be taken as a knock against their fine product.

I am a firm believer in personal responsibility and I am big enough to stand here and admit I could have done things better. Spending $4000 dollars last week was the price I paid along with being autopsied on the internet.

Now off to try my hand at biodiesel production. Perhaps it may work better with my Soybean oil source and a modded Jetta Wagon. If not, I will be prepared to face the music again.

Andy
 

nicklockard

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The process of learning is an ongoing and lifelong thing

Kudos again. Andy, work is really busy, but I'll do a plans review for you as soon as I can. I'll try to review one section at a time closely and send you notes and inputs.

Keys:

  1. Unit transfer operations--valving flexibility by multiplexing.
  2. Patience
  3. Patience
  4. Patience
  5. Faith in chemistry
  6. More patience
  7. Oh, and a willingness to get really greasy :D
 

2004Nick

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WVO No More

Fantastic write-up and pics--this forum never ceases to astound me--you folks are truly amazing. Thanks for the heads-up, Georgia rooster! Nick in BC.
 

lupin..the..3rd

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Andy- Sorry to hear of the misfortune but very glad that you shared it with the forum! Your photos and write-up are exemplary. I'm confident this will be valuable information for anyone considering WVO in their TDI.
 

TornadoRed

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slojoe said:
I wonder how many WVO tdi owners that "disappear" simply sell the cars that they have turned into ticking time bombs... i wonder how many remove all traces of a grease conversion and say nothing to the new buyers.
About a year ago, a local San Diegan with a WVO-converted Golf called up and asked if I could take a look at his car. There wasn't much I could do for him, it was making noises that I'd never heard come from a TDI, and the entire installation was very messy.

I certainly feel sorry for anyone who has purchased a TDI that was previously run on WVO. There are so many things that can go wrong, and trouble-shooting all of them can get incredibly expensive. Plus, just consider how high TDI prices have been these last couple years. Imagine paying top-dollar for a clean-looking TDI, then have to spend many thousands just to make it run properly.
 

Chasee

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slojoe said:
I wonder how many WVO tdi owners that "disappear" simply sell the cars that they have turned into ticking time bombs... i wonder how many remove all traces of a grease conversion and say nothing to the new buyers.
Specious statement, nothing more. :cool:

I wonder how many owners of any sort of car hide all manor of issues from prospective buyers?

TornadoRed said:
Plus, just consider how high TDI prices have been these last couple years. Imagine paying top-dollar for a clean-looking TDI, then have to spend many thousands just to make it run properly.
Well, from what I've seen, TDIs with grease kits have gone for a premium over and above those already high prices. So, not too sure why someone would pull the system when it should actually get them more money.

So let's not disparage greasers with specious statements, let's consider the simple economics of the situation, and let us never forget:

Caveat Emptor!
 

Scott_DeWitt

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The ground up bits of your old turbo probably destroyed the rest of the engine. Hope you cleaned out the intercooler!
 

TornadoRed

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Chasee said:
Well, from what I've seen, TDIs with grease kits have gone for a premium over and above those already high prices. So, not too sure why someone would pull the system when it should actually get them more money.
There are lots of diesel newbies, who know only what they've read in a few newspaper articles about WVO. So they are entirely ignorant about the downside risks.

If I knew a used TDI had been run on WVO previously, I simply wouldn't buy it at any price. But if someone else was buying, I'd suggest a bid of $2k-$4k below Kelly Blue Book.

So let's not disparage greasers with specious statements
By "greasers", do you mean the cars or their owners? If you mean cars that have been converted to run WVO, even if they've been switched back... they are inanimate objects and cannot take offense at anything I might say.

If you means owners who sell used TDIs without divulging a previous history of WVO use, then I would have no problem describing them with the harshest language. Deliberate misrepresentation might justify a physical response, if legal channels don't get results. (Nothing permanent, nothing that will take more than three months to heal.)
 

Chasee

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TornadoRed said:
If I knew a used TDI had been run on WVO previously, I simply wouldn't buy it at any price. But if someone else was buying, I'd suggest a bid of $2k-$4k below Kelly Blue Book.


By "greasers", do you mean the cars or their owners? If you mean cars that have been converted to run WVO, even if they've been switched back... they are inanimate objects and cannot take offense at anything I might say.

If you means owners who sell used TDIs without divulging a previous history of WVO use, then I would have no problem describing them with the harshest language. Deliberate misrepresentation might justify a physical response, if legal channels don't get results. (Nothing permanent, nothing that will take more than three months to heal.)
OK, let's get the Webster's on "specious":

“Apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible.”

As I stated, SloeJoe's comment is specious as there is no data or even anecdotal evidence backing it up. It is therefore a comment which is also "disparaging":

“To bring reproach or discredit upon; lower the estimation of.”

Now that we have our vocab lesson of the day, let’s move on. :rolleyes:

Do I really need to explain to you that I was referring to people, as was SloeJoe's original statement which I quoted? Hopefully not.

You seem to have taken a random “specious” comment made by SloJoe and exacerbated it to an odd extent. Why the vitriol?:confused:

And hey, try and lowball a grease kit TDI, see how far that gets you. I wish you luck.:rolleyes:
 
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TheTDIWagonGuy

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Great post! We learn more from what we have done wrong than what we have done right! Now all that have read this have learned.
 

JB05

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I find it very amazing how helpful people on this forum are.
To take someone into your home and then fix up his car goes beyond words. Glad things worked out in the end. Good luck on your next endevour.
John
 

TornadoRed

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Chasee said:
And hey, try and lowball a grease kit TDI, see how far that gets you.
As I said, I would not be interested in a grease kit TDI at any price.
 

Ecential

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Come on man you have to tell us what greasekit you had?????? I believe that the forum needs to know which grease car kit you had.
 

G60ING

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No TDIs Currently, I have an R36 Corrado. I've had an ALH Corrado swap, AHU Corrado swap and 2003 TDI Jetta
Thank you for posting your experiance with WVO
 
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