WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story

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BioDiesel

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nicklockard said:
No, in fact they say: "you are your own warranty."

As is anyone who modifies their vehicle to use an out of specification fuel or otherwise adds performance modifications or otherwise messes with emissions equipment. Remember? Read the home page introduction at www.tdiclub.com :rolleyes:

The warranty question forced you to acknowledge that the tuners don't guarantee their work. They have no idea what changes they are effecting. They make good guesses, and send you on your way. Hence, no guarantee.

SVO manufactures who DO offer warranties:
1. Kit maker Elsbett GMBH, Thalmassing Germany
2. John Deere, USA
3. Audi , Germany ( a single tank kit for their new TDI )
 

Drivbiwire

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BioDiesel said:
The warranty question forced you to acknowledge that the tuners don't guarantee their work. They have no idea what changes they are effecting. They make good guesses, and send you on your way. Hence, no guarantee.

SVO manufactures who DO offer warranties:
1. Kit maker Elsbett GMBH, Thalmassing Germany
2. John Deere, USA
3. Audi , Germany ( a single tank kit for their new TDI )
I AGREE! DAMN!

So by your own admission anybody running SVO, WVO or more than B5 biodiesel in anything other than the OEM approved kits or ratios have to realize that “The [fill in the blan] don't guarantee their work. They have no idea what changes they are effecting. They make good guesses, and send you on your way” You know I have to agree with you!
DB
 

nicklockard

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BioDiesel said:
The warranty question forced you to acknowledge that the tuners don't guarantee their work.
SVO manufactures who DO offer warranties:
1. Kit maker Elsbett GMBH, Thalmassing Germany
2. John Deere, USA
3. Audi , Germany ( a single tank kit for their new TDI )
Yes, and you still lose VW's warranty in those cases. Also, the Elsebett kit is extremely expensive and perhaps one tenth of one percent of VO users are running them (can afford to.) How many installed kits are there in Tdi's in North America? A few hundred maybe? Versus how many are running cobbled-together kits from Ace hardware store parts? I'm betting it's a > 50:1 ratio in favor of the Ace hardware kits.

BioDiesel said:
They have no idea what changes they are effecting. They make good guesses, and send you on your way. Hence, no guarantee.
Well I'd venture to guess they know a heck of a lot more than you or I. There is plenty of first-rate academic work in diesel combustion kinetics and dynamics including rate modeling with different petro fuel blends. Some of it can be extended into other fuels also. It's not a 'black art' as you seem to suggest. Look up the EERE and Navy papers on diesel combustion research and learn a ton.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Saying in one sentence that tuners don't offer engine warrantys (true) and in the next that hence, they don't guarantee their work (not true) requires a leap. Good tuners will make sure your car will run as promised. If it requires other repairs, some tuners will do what they can and not charge extra, or charge very little. And if your car requires some additional software work to make it right a good tuner will do it, no charge. I call that a guarantee. Too many things are out of the tuner's control to warrantee an engine that often already has over 100K on it. Imagine, if I chip my Jetta wagon at 164K and a timing belt component gives up early and destroys my head. Is that the tuner's fault? Am I placing additional stress on the belt with the tune? Probably not.

If a car's tune takes components beyond their design limits most tuners will tell you so, so you walk into the modifications with your eyes open. Do WVO kit suppliers tell you this? Sounds like some do, even if they don't guarantee your engine.
 

BioDiesel

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"Also, the Elsebett kit is extremely expensive and perhaps one tenth of one percent of VO users are running them (can afford to.)"

At $1100 , Elsbetts' kits are actually at the mid priced range in the USA and Germany. And they are more popular in Europe, probably THE most popular.
Stop making $hit up.


Question: Do your 'uber-tuners' do dyno testing? Emissions testing? EGT testing?

Thought not.
 

DarrenUK

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Hello Biodiesel,

To clarify, I know of many Elsbett tdis of the four that have had problems running rapeseed oil; 1 neglected to change the oil, 2 were 'chipped' and the last one had a spring in one of the injectors snap (high milage engine when converted)

Also I'm not sure about Audi offering single tank kit. I have read that VWP ( http://www.vwp-europe.com/ ) have started converting Audi commonrail tdis. They also have been working on a rapeseed oil tractor for John Deere, which is expected to go to market next year.
Deutz offer a tractor that they allow to be fitted with a specific twin tank system. All the other conversions above are single tank.

I was very interested by the 3 litre Audi commonrail conversion. The first single tank commonrail conversion to be sold. I've read that Audi are marketing a 3 ltr tdi next year that will have combustion pressure sensing glow plugs, I guess it will use the commonrail system. I imagine that this will be a prime candidate for biodiesel / SVO.... an engine that automatically tunes itself to the combustion event!
 

nicklockard

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BioDiesel said:
Universal reports of increased smoking with mod's whether fueled with diesel or SVO, indicate none of your theorized benefits are occuring.
I'm making stuff up?:eek: :rolleyes: What nerve. You make this ridiculous blanket claim of "universal reports..." which is total crap, then you quote a price for Elsebett which probably only covers half the required system (not to mention Elsebett's warranty ONLY covers you if you are running virgin rapeseed oil (that save you a lot of money???:eek: ;) LOL. What's that cost?)

Last I saw (a year ago), installed Elsebett kits were running upwards of $1800 AND you voided your Elsebett warranty immediately if you put one drop of WVO in it, no matter how water or contaminant free it was. You are only telling half the story, Mister.
 

BioDiesel

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Turbo Damage

Someone posited:
"All it takes is one: Rock, nut, bolt, petrified turd, etc and the turbo will be destroyed."

Looking at the two missing pieces pf the piston, perhaps thats the foreign objects(s).
 

BioDiesel

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You're right Slave2school. They could only damage the exhaust half of the turbo.


"The other issue is a matter of removing all suspended water from the WVO. The water in this environment makes an explosive type of detonation. The water will burst into a steam explosion at inappropriate times in the cycle of the engine..."

Water is known to erode the injector tips.


"that save you a lot of money??? LOL."

Yes. About $2/gallon in Germany. Truckers LOVE Elsbett's. They easily save $10-20,000 per year.
Now you know why the phone doesn't stop ringing at Elsbett.
 
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nicklockard

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BioDiesel,

I respectfully suggest that you do some more honest full disclosure such as what you PM'd me here in this thread regarding:

  • Price
  • your status wrt/Elsebett
  • Elsebett's stated warranty with restrictions, etcetera.
And to regain some credibility, I suggest you withdraw your "universal reports of smoking" claim.

People reading this thread and others regarding VO/WVO/Biodiesel need us to be honest information brokers. They deserve to know ALL risks, true (as installed and meeting reseller's warranty requirements) costs and pro's and con's of such conversions. Let's not leave with only half the story told. Your PM was enlightening.

Finally, you'd need to justify those quoted savings for European truckers using Elsebett systems: vis-a-vis explaining how that can NOT translate into similar savings here in North America, where virgin rapeseed vegetable oils are quite costly compared to standard D2.
 
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Chasee

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nicklockard said:
BioDiesel,

Finally, you'd need to justify those quoted savings for European truckers using Elsebett systems: vis-a-vis explaining how that can NOT translate into similar savings here in North America, where virgin rapeseed vegetable oils are quite costly compared to standard D2.
This is the only part I can chime in on. What are you asking? Are you asking if it is true that SVO is very much cheaper than D2 in the EU? If so, the answer has been yes for 20+ years. That's why Elsebett has been around for so long.

Of course using SVO stateside has been not been economically viable so far. But with the trajectory oil prices have been taking as of late, that may very well change in the next couple of years. Some people don't care as much about ROI as they do about using a domestically produced, renewable, non-toxic, carbon neutral fuel.

Me, I'll take my cake and eat it too. Just hit 71K on WVO. With all my investment in a serious industrial filtration system, kit, installation, I estimate I hit my ROI back around 60K. That was figuring a low-ball average D2 MPG of 120 and $2.50/gallon. I guess at this point I'm building up a buffer for that new IP everyone says I'll need. :D
 

deepseafortydog

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Questions:

So does quality (home brewed/dried/filtered) biodiesel produce the same or similar effects as the WVO has here?

If I run BD at 50%, can I still do extended oil changes using synthetics and OARs from Blackstone or what?

Can I do conservative engine mods and still run B50?

Thanks
 

GoFaster

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Plenty of people here use quality biodiesel with normal oil change intervals. Me included. I do not home-brew; I trust quality control at an industrial plant better. And my vehicle is chipped.

Biodiesel is much closer in viscosity (think: atomization in the combustion chamber!) to standard diesel fuel than it is to vegetable oil. As long as you keep the combustion efficiency high, it should not be a problem for the motor oil.
 

nicklockard

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GoFaster said:
Biodiesel is much closer in viscosity (think: atomization in the combustion chamber!) to standard diesel fuel than it is to vegetable oil. As long as you keep the combustion efficiency high, it should not be a problem for the motor oil.
And to elaborate on that, vegetable oils are 4 times more viscous than the upper limit for D2 (2-6 centipiose kinematic viscosity) even when preheated. Biodiesel made from waste soy oil ranges from 7-10 cP kinematic viscosity at the same temperatures. I collected this data myself on a rotary viscometer with a type "F" spindle using a controlled water bath and calibrated against water (control blank):





Edit: the curves above show a clear formation of a complex phase for this biodiesel sample at 19C and below. That would suggest you should not run (this) neat, B100 below 19C but should blend it accordingly with D2 to reduce its viscosity.

Caveat Emptor.
 
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deepseafortydog

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Cool. Thanks for the info. We have been running B50 on a mostly stock engine for about a year. I would hate to encounter ring sticking because my BD fuel was diluting the engine oil.
 

BioDiesel

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"So does quality (home brewed/dried/filtered) biodiesel produce the same or similar effects as the WVO has here?"

Yes. Check the famous 'black rope' in crankcase photo here.

If you do mod.'s learn how to home test for polymerization at infopop.
 

UFO

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deepseafortydog said:
Cool. Thanks for the info. We have been running B50 on a mostly stock engine for about a year. I would hate to encounter ring sticking because my BD fuel was diluting the engine oil.
I believe the "ring sticking" is caused mostly from incompletely burned fuel getting trapped and cooking in the rings. This is far less likely with biodiesel, as the sticky stuff (glycerine) has been removed in the fuel-making process.
 

GoFaster

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If you have good combustion efficiency, you're not going to get (significant) unburned and partially burned fuel getting into the ring lands. Doesn't matter the type of fuel.

Still, the combustion efficiency is affected by the atomization, and that's affected by the range of viscosity that the injectors are designed for ...
 

UFO

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GoFaster said:
If you have good combustion efficiency, you're not going to get (significant) unburned and partially burned fuel getting into the ring lands. Doesn't matter the type of fuel.

Still, the combustion efficiency is affected by the atomization, and that's affected by the range of viscosity that the injectors are designed for ...
Ideally, but starting at lower temperatures will result in more unburned fuel present, and in a direct injection there is more chance of wetting the cylinder walls.
 

rez311

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Nice read. That totally sucks. Don't you think a gummed up injector could have raised EGTs so high to cause all of this damage? I know WVO can coke up injectors. But damn. 50K?!?!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I've seen holed pistons from stuck injectors on a car running WVO. It's not egt, it's hot spots in the combustion chamber that can be a problem.
 

LurkerMike

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
I've seen holed pistons from stuck injectors on a car running WVO. It's not egt, it's hot spots in the combustion chamber that can be a problem.
Is there any way to detect this occurring BEFORE it is too late?
 

rez311

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IndigoBlueWagon said:
I've seen holed pistons from stuck injectors on a car running WVO. It's not egt, it's hot spots in the combustion chamber that can be a problem.
What do you think EGTs are?!?!?!

High EGTs will cause fried pistons and piston rings. I know this might be WVO related, but a precaution of having an EGT gauge with a warning light could have prevented this. I have seen this too many times with people upgrading their engines.

Also, he did upgrade his turbo to force more boost without getting a retune. I have seen modified engines blow up all the time because of a bigger turbo running more boost and no dyno tuning to prevent EGT spiking. I bet he has his stock CAT on the car. Mistake #3! That alone will cause EGT spikes.

I wouldn't totally blame WVO for this engine damage.
 
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DPM

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Nah, you can have high combustion temperatures and/or hotspots without there being high EGTs. Advanced timing leaves the heat in the cylinder, retarded timing brings the fire out into the manifold...
 
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