Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[linux_author]

looks like a little pushback going on:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/epa-notifies-volkswagen-of-added-emissions-violations-1446491504

willie
on the factory-tuned TDI Gulf of Mexico

 

[oilhammer]

Hmmm... maybe I WILL get to buy that A6 TDI I've been drooling over!

 

[rick_deckard]

Lots of charging stations around Charlotte. However, the bigger problem is that the eGolf is not offered in North Carolina. You would have to drive to Maryland to buy one and then stop every two hours on the way home to recharge.

I live in the Piedmont. We've got charging stations at the dealerships (Winston, Greensboro, Burlington), but that's it. No public charging like Charlotte and the RDU area. This, of course, clarifies the decision for the e-Golf not being offered, haha. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

I still cannot imagine how VW thought they could get away with all this. By not coming clean with the V6 when they had the chance to earn at least a few confidence points, they passed it up in the hope that maybe noone would notice with all the attention on the 2.0L.

And then they chose the head of the V6 department to be the New Sheriff in Town to clean up the mess left by the 2.0 crook.

Will the stupidity never end.

Arrogance.

 

[Vidgamer]

Don't know about Europe but in the U.S., the law stated manufacturers must supply parts for 10 years. I assume that hasn't changed.

I had a plastic part at the top of the radiator break on my Mazda RX-7 many years ago, and had to wait 2 weeks for it to ship from Japan. I would have thought that they would have had to warehouse the parts inside the U.S., but maybe not.

I'm not sure I'm worried about parts.

 

[TDIintheLOU]

I still cannot imagine how VW thought they could get away with all this. By not coming clean with the V6 when they had the chance to earn at least a few confidence points, they passed it up in the hope that maybe noone would notice with all the attention on the 2.0L.

And then they chose the head of the V6 department to be the New Sheriff in Town to clean up the mess left by the 2.0 crook.

Will the stupidity never end.

This whole scandal has been very telling of how VW operates. Weather it is arrogance or stupidity you have to wonder why anyone would have ever invested in this company. They definitely like to take big risk. This may be one of the biggest dysfunctional billion dollar companies ever.

They are in a big hole and not willing to put the shovel down.

 

[RBTDI]

::runs off to buy a 2016 A6 TDI for pennies on the dollar::

98 pennies.

 

[Vidgamer]

But we have to accept there is a percent that this just happened to hit right when they were planning to upgrade/trade-in/change lifestyles.

It's easy to say "just hang on, values will go back up" but depreciation keeps moving on.

Someone who just had to say move jobs and now commutes 3 miles instead of 75 and doesn't want that 2013 TDI by the time they "hang on and wait for a year" their car just went down in value a year. Depending on time of year your car ages one year as soon as new model year happens.

But if you bought a new (or even newer) car, you'd be out more money. You may want to buy a different car, but you're probably actually better off anyway holding on to what you have, scandal or not. So, holding on to the car isn't all THAT horrible, and is probably better financially anyway than what most people do.

The problem is if you really have to sell the car. Yes, you're going to get less for it right now. I think that's likely a small number, but right now, it's going to be hard. But I don't think normal depreciation is a problem.

It's 2 years old on September 1, 3 years old on December 1. That 2 year old car is now a 3 year old car. Go look on kbb/nada/etc and look at what a 2013 sells for versus a 2012. Values may go back up for a mythical car that's always 2 years old, but their car isn't staying 2 years old. It's turning 3. Maybe those dates/years don't apply or aren't quite right for these models/years I'm just making an example for illustrative purposes.

There is no wait for the values to come up -- they sell now at a drop in resale value, and hanging on a year (or four months!) to wait for prices to un-soften won't help as now they're selling an year older car.

But if they drove a car one more year, that's a year saved not making new-(or even newer) car payments. It's not like you're really losing money by using the car you already have. (You'll really be better off!)

It just feels like the problem is overstated. Yes, there's a problem, but why make it out to be worse than it is? Is this to argue for a bigger buyout plan or something? I think VW will have to do something, everyone says they'll do something, but I don't know what you suggest doing about it right now.

Those are the folks who will be hurting. If lucky, VW plan will help them recover losses. Yes a car is always a loss, but less of a loss is better than more of a loss. That's true regardless of whether you're hurting financially or are very stable and have plenty of cushion. Less still equals "well, that sucks"

Me, I have no plans to sell didn't before and don't now.

Some of us are just saying that it'll be less of a loss when people know about the fix and are more comfortable about what is going on. Right now, all people are hearing is that there is something wrong with the car. This is just not a good time to buy/sell these cars, particularly with the negativity.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

This whole scandal has been very telling of how VW operates. Weather it is arrogance or stupidity you have to wonder why anyone would have ever invested in this company. They definitely like to take big risk. This may be one of the biggest dysfunctional billion dollar companies ever.

They are in a big hole and not willing to put the shovel down.

Keep in mind that as recently as 1.5 months ago...investors had no reason to suspect that something was amiss.

 

[Abacus]

I read the link twice and see no mention of how the CAFE standards are related to emissions. They are for economy.

Oh, then the cars meet it now. What's all the fuss then?

 

[RBTDI]

I, for one, would like to welcome V6 TDI owners to this discussion.

OK, here's the plan. We get the V6 TDI owners who are rookies to this thread to admit that they're destroying the Earth, and agree to take their vehicles off the road and send them to the junkyards. For every 2 junked V6 TDIs, 3 of us can keep driving our 2.0L TDIs without having to make any of the upcoming changes (2 x V6 = 3 x 4 cyl). We can call this the NOx equivalent of "carbon offsets".
Just don't tell any of the V6 TDI owners what we're up to. It's our secret

 

[tsingtao]

If I take a loan, I have to keep the money to pay it off in a cash-equivalent account (can't afford to be forced to sell securities in a down market to make payments), which would yield me less than 1% interest today. So even a zero percent loan with the money invested at 1% isn't going to change my financial outlook appreciably.

Not necessarily. You could invest the money long term and pay off the loan out of current cash flow.

Even if you do take out a loan and keep the money in a cash equivalent account, you enjoy more liquidity, which is worth something.

 

[tsingtao]

I read the link twice and see no mention of how the CAFE standards are related to emissions. They are for economy.

US Senators are not known for logic. I think what he is getting at (and this is just a guess) is that if the fix reduces the mileage below what VW claimed, they should have to refund the credits they obtained by selliing cars with that claimed mileage.

 

[tsingtao]

But if they drove a car one more year, that's a year saved not making new-(or even newer) car payments. It's not like you're really losing money by using the car you already have. (You'll really be better off!)

I do agree with this. I was seriously thinking of selling my 2009 with 57K miles on it and getting a new one. (When I purchased it I had to use it to drive for my job but they provided me a vehicle about 6 months later, that's why the low mileage. My commute to work, where I get their vehicle, is only 6 miles each way.)

Why, just because I wanted something new. Now I am stuck with it and I realize it drives fine, I like driving it, and I can put the car payment money in the bank.

Somedays, I am really po'd at VW but other days, I think they did me a favor with this.

 

[Slum Cut]

It seems "Pandora's Box" has been opened, and I see all manufacturers being tested for their on road, real world conditions emission compliance. It will eventually hit gas vehicles as well, as someone defending the diesels will certainly go out of their way to prove diesels engines aren't the only ones being engineered to cheat.

The only explanation I can come up with for why other manufacturers didn't tattle on VW years ago is that they're all doing some amount of cheating. When VW claimed it was making "clean" diesel with no urea injection system, that was something most? every? other car company would have been dying to do. Surely they all went and bought one and took it apart to reverse engineer, and surely they all figured out what VW was (and wasn't) doing.

 

[bring]

proof of what? what are you even talking about?

Read what you wrote

 

[JM Popaleetus]

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/03/audis-new-1000-hp-hybrid-pulls-like-a-freight-train/

Think this has a cheat device?

 

[the beave]

OK, here's the plan. We get the V6 TDI owners who are rookies to this thread to admit that they're destroying the Earth, and agree to take their vehicles off the road and send them to the junkyards. For every 2 junked V6 TDIs, 3 of us can keep driving our 2.0L TDIs without having to make any of the upcoming changes (2 x V6 = 3 x V4). We can call this the NOx equivalent of "carbon offsets".
Just don't tell any of the V6 TDI owners what we're up to. It's our secret

Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this is just PURE GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I get to keep my new 2015 Jetta S!!!!!

I Love My TDI!!

the beave

 

[bring]

How do you know that your car won't be the same after the "fix"? That's right, no one knows the outcome because no one on here knows what the fix will be for the three different generations.

Did you read what I was responding to?

Good god, the diesel paranoia is running rampant out here.....

 

[czeetah]

But if you bought a new (or even newer) car, you'd be out more money. You may want to buy a different car, but you're probably actually better off anyway holding on to what you have, scandal or not. So, holding on to the car isn't all THAT horrible, and is probably better financially anyway than what most people do.

Oh, absolutely! I agree with you completely.

I'm sure there's some small percent where there isn't get a new car.

I wouldn't want to say work in NYC (it's a great city, just not my style) but some company comes along and offers me $500k/year I would contemplate taking them up on the offer. And I would probably want to sell the VW so I don't have to pay to house two cars, and live where I could mass transit.

 

[ajjl2015]

I took my 2015 Jetta S TDI in for its 10K mile service and the Service Manager said that they were given a stop sale order on all 2015 gassers as of Friday. He said they could sale the few 2016 gas models they had but no 2015. He didn't have a clue as to why (or at least he didn't act like he did).

 

[rick_deckard]

I took my 2015 Jetta S TDI in for its 10K mile service and the Service Manager said that they were given a stop sale order on all 2015 gassers as of Friday. He said they could sale the few 2016 gas models they had but no 2015. He didn't have a clue as to why (or at least he didn't act like he did).

Oh, man... That doesn't sound good. Sort of explains why ALL offers/incentives disappeared from the VW website/local dealer websites.

 

[marmaj]

3.0 tdi

Like many of you, I am puzzled by the 2014 3.0 Tuareg TDI making it to the latest EPA's NoV, but the 2013 and 2015 not, and since we have a '13 Tuareg TDI in our garage, that got my attention, and I sharted thinking of possible explanations, and here is what I came up with, so far:

1. EPA could not get a hold of a '13 or '15 sample, and simply did not test them.
2. EPA did test either (or both) and found it/them to be compliant.

If (1), then chances are another shoe will fall soon, unless VW decided to not install the cheat in '13 and '15, which would be obviously the case with (2).

Of course, there is still a chance (albeit small, IMO) that the latest EPA's tests were erroneous, and VW is clean with the '14.

Am I missing any other possible explanation(s) for the absence of the '13 and '14 on the list? From what I know, I surmise that 13-14-15 are basically the same as far as the engine and emission controls go. Am I right?

Comments are most welcomed.

 

[EnzTDI91]

Diesel scandal is a joke

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-disputes-new-epa-emissions-charges-2015-11-03

TL.DR It's just as I said before this whole scandal is not about emissions or the environment. At the very top this is about competitive advantage and corporations putting pressure on governmental institutions.

I'll say it again. People have died recently from recalls as a result of General Motor's neglect, poor engineering or cutting costs/corners. You barely hear anything about that. Furthermore the media is pushing these assasinine articles about saying Volkswagen emissions MAY have caused 60 people to die early deaths. Open your eyes people. These are great cars, other OEMs not heavily invested in diesel cannot compete.

The quote is from the article I posted above. It's a damn witch hunt.


"The EPA said its recent tests found Volkswagen installed devices aimed at manipulating U.S. pollution tests in some Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche diesel-powered vehicles. The regulator said the vehicles had increased nitrogen-oxide emissions up to nine times the allowable standard.
"VW has once again failed its obligation to comply with the law that protects clean air for all Americans," said Cynthia Giles, the EPA's associate administrator of enforcement and compliance assurance, in a conference call.
A Volkswagen spokesman disputed the EPA's findings, saying the auto maker didn't install emissions-test evading software on any of the newly identified vehicles. "It is a permissible software," he said, adding: "What's at issue here is clear: Does the U.S. want competition in the American market or not?"

 

[scrubber]

Like many of you, I am puzzled by the 2014 3.0 Tuareg TDI making it to the latest EPA's NoV, but the 2013 and 2015 not, and since we have a '13 Tuareg TDI in our garage, that got my attention, and I sharted thinking of possible explanations, and here is what I came up with, so far:

1. EPA could not get a hold of a '13 or '15 sample, and simply did not test them.
2. EPA did test either (or both) and found it/them to be compliant.

If (1), then chances are another shoe will fall soon, unless VW decided to not install the cheat in '13 and '15, which would be obviously the case with (2).

Of course, there is still a chance (albeit small, IMO) that the latest EPA's tests were erroneous, and VW is clean with the '14.



Am I missing any other possible explanation(s) for the absence of the '13 and '14 on the list? From what I know, I surmise that 13-14-15 are basically the same as far as the engine and emission controls go. Am I right?

Comments are most welcomed.

was 2014 the year the published HP rating went from 225 to 240?

 

[TDIpilot4u]

Oh, man... That doesn't sound good. Sort of explains why ALL offers/incentives disappeared from the VW website/local dealer websites.

Yea the only offer listed on VW's website is a multi point inspection . I think those incentives were set to expire around this time, but seems weird there isn't anything listed now.

 

[Lucidexp]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-disputes-new-epa-emissions-charges-2015-11-03

TL.DR It's just as I said before this whole scandal is not about emissions or the environment. At the very top this is about competitive advantage and corporations putting pressure on governmental institutions.

I'll say it again. People have died recently from recalls as a result of General Motor's neglect, poor engineering or cutting costs/corners. You barely hear anything about that. Furthermore the media is pushing these assasinine articles about saying Volkswagen emissions MAY have caused 60 people to die early deaths. Open your eyes people. These are great cars, other OEMs not heavily invested in diesel cannot compete.

The quote is from the article I posted above. It's a damn witch hunt.


"The EPA said its recent tests found Volkswagen installed devices aimed at manipulating U.S. pollution tests in some Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche diesel-powered vehicles. The regulator said the vehicles had increased nitrogen-oxide emissions up to nine times the allowable standard.
"VW has once again failed its obligation to comply with the law that protects clean air for all Americans," said Cynthia Giles, the EPA's associate administrator of enforcement and compliance assurance, in a conference call.
A Volkswagen spokesman disputed the EPA's findings, saying the auto maker didn't install emissions-test evading software on any of the newly identified vehicles. "It is a permissible software," he said, adding: "What's at issue here is clear: Does the U.S. want competition in the American market or not?"

The cool things about facts are they dont have opinions or politics. If the EPA can prove that VW was again cheating then it doesnt really matter how the investigation is perceived since the facts say they are guilty.

 

[EnzTDI91]

The cool things about facts are they dont have opinions or politics. If the EPA can prove that VW was again cheating then it doesnt really matter how the investigation is perceived since the facts say they are guilty.

Guilty of what? Making a superior vehicle? Are you trying to tell me that a 2.0 TDI jetta pollutes more than a Cadillac Escalade? How about a dodge challenger? How about a Range Rover? How about a Chevy Silverado? How about a Dodge Charger? How about a Chevy Corvette? How about a Chrysler 300?

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/volkswagen-disputes-new-epa-emissions-charges-2015-11-03

TL.DR It's just as I said before this whole scandal is not about emissions or the environment. At the very top this is about competitive advantage and corporations putting pressure on governmental institutions.

I'll say it again. People have died recently from recalls as a result of General Motor's neglect, poor engineering or cutting costs/corners. You barely hear anything about that. Furthermore the media is pushing these assasinine articles about saying Volkswagen emissions MAY have caused 60 people to die early deaths. Open your eyes people. These are great cars, other OEMs not heavily invested in diesel cannot compete.

The quote is from the article I posted above. It's a damn witch hunt.


"The EPA said its recent tests found Volkswagen installed devices aimed at manipulating U.S. pollution tests in some Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche diesel-powered vehicles. The regulator said the vehicles had increased nitrogen-oxide emissions up to nine times the allowable standard.
"VW has once again failed its obligation to comply with the law that protects clean air for all Americans," said Cynthia Giles, the EPA's associate administrator of enforcement and compliance assurance, in a conference call.
A Volkswagen spokesman disputed the EPA's findings, saying the auto maker didn't install emissions-test evading software on any of the newly identified vehicles. "It is a permissible software," he said, adding: "What's at issue here is clear: Does the U.S. want competition in the American market or not?"

This is a concern that they should have raised before installing defeat devices in their vehicles. Make no mistake of it...this was a deliberate act to game the system. I'm not even talking about the latest round of vehicles and whether or not they cheated with those too.

VW whining at this point about the EPA and how the rules are unfair are laughable. Clearly...the EPA has had it out for makers of diesel passenger vehicles for some times now. Few will debate that fact.

The writing has been on the wall for years. Companies that had an interest in selling diesel passenger vehicles in the U.S. (i.e. VW, BMW, Daimler, Mazda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.) should have put their differences aside years ago and banded together on this one issue to form a lobbying group to ensure that they don't get di**ed over at every turn.

VW doesn't have a leg to stand on at this point. You can't game the system and then complain that the game is unfair. VW should have had a press release done up about this latest round of vehicles before the EPA had a chance to nail them. They didn't. That...to me...is telling. They're sneaky and didn't really learn anything from getting dragged through the mud in September.

It doesn't matter how things are...it matters how they look (where public opinion is concerned).

Edit:

The cool things about facts are they dont have opinions or politics. If the EPA can prove that VW was again cheating then it doesnt really matter how the investigation is perceived since the facts say they are guilty.

Yup. This is what gets me about this whole thing. I'm not a fan of the EPA. To me...they've gotten "too big for their britches." In this case though...VW has no one to blame but themselves.

 

[csl223]

Yea the only offer listed on VW's website is a multi point inspection . I think those incentives were set to expire around this time, but seems weird there isn't anything listed now.

That shocked me, but they were all set to expire as of today anyways so i figured there was just a delay in getting the new ones up... I am not sure about the validity of a stop sale on gas models mentioned, but if so.... DAYYYUM!