Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[tariq]

Not sure why consumer reports trying to purposely flip a SUV and succeeding 27 years ago has much to do with them testing tdis to show if changes happen after the fix.

Deflection and displacement, like most VW apologist rationalizations in this long thread.

 

[Rico567]

http://variety.com/2015/film/news/leonardo-dicaprio-volkswagen-scandal-movie-1201615946/

You can't make this stuff up......but they will, they will.

 

[pparks1]

People need to understand that not everyone is OK with waiting on VW for up to 2 years, at which time you will be at their mercy because your car will have depreciated much further. Also, many members have already contacted VW to determine their options and VW has made it clear that they aren't going to do a damn thing for you until the proposed solution is ready and recall is underway. At that time a buyback may be an option. That's what they told me and many others here. I was already trying to sell my Golf right before this scandal came to light. Now I'm basically stuck with it because I can't find a buyer and can't afford to realize the loss.

I'm going to keep trying to sell, but a this point, there really is nothing else I can do, but wait on VW to get their s**t together.

Sadly, you are stuck. As a company, they cannot say to you, "well, because of your unique situation, here are some special options". It's like the housing market, we bought our home for a reasonable price when the market was booming. We had kids, wanted a better school district and when we tried to sell our home the housing market tanked. Our home value dropped over 70%. We couldn't afford that loss, so we found the kids a charter school, we have to drive them to and from the school (which is over 10 miles away), we had to find people to carpool with to ensure we could pick up the kids everyday and we are are just having to deal with it. My mortgage only has about 1 year left, so I almost own the house outright, but its still only worth about 60% of what we paid for it. This is life. There is no corporation I can go to to help me recoup what was supposed to be, "the best investment I can make".


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[MonsterTDI09]

Just to let everyone know I'm on my 100 bag of popcorn. Will this ever thread end

 

[hybridkiller]

...we bought our home for a reasonable price..."the best investment I can make".

Another unfortunate misconception that may have had some validity 50 year ago, but any credible financial planner will tell you that a house is generally not an investment - unless you buy at the bottom of the market, or buy a fix-r-upper with solid upside potential (desirable neighborhood etc.)
Too many people had to (re)learn this since 2009.

Cars are even worse - unlike real estate, they are guaranteed to depreciate. A car is, first and foremost, a means of transportation.

I hate to sound mean, but for those who are financially unable to tolerate an unexpected loss of "equity" value in your car, then you bought more car than you can afford. Harsh reality I know, but true nonetheless.

I understand if people have children, a job, responsibilities, need safe, secure, dependable transportation for them and their family. A brand new Corolla can be had for ~$17K - if someone bought more car than that and feel they are now "stuck" - then I urge those people simply not to make the same mistake again. [/rant]

 

[TCBinaflash]

Having my morning coffee, scrolling for news...just pondering the whole situation and then it strikes me this may be the best thing to happen for diesel passenger cars ever depending on the outcome.

Imagine this....VW solves the EA189 issues at great expense and effort. Gets tested by every tree hugging orginazation on the planet and the tailpipe only emits rainbows and butterflies. Meanwhile the gassers get tested and lo and behold they come as violators of our sacred mother Earth.

Meanwhile the '16s finally get approved and turns out they are just slightly more evil to the environment as your Aunt's Prius.

VW advertising machine starts rolling.... Every manufacturer has been at fault, no car has had more scrutiny- Apologizes for employee caused debacle- reinforces commitment to customer to a much wider audience that didn't even know diesel cars existed before.

The media attention has opened up the market on these cars dramatically. If they get this right it could be a huge win for them.

They prob will switch focus more to electric but regardless, this attention in the US market is a massive opportunity for VAG in the US.

 

[Swinepartner]

Like quite a few on here, this "crisis" finds me at a transportation cross roads. In my situation the sky is not falling. I live my 13 Jetta sedan. I have 123K miles on it. It's been flawless. Only maintenance is scheduled maintenance. I'm getting 39-42 mpg and getting about 550 per tank. This is the main reason I got this car...mpg. The torque, HP etc is icing on the cake. It cost me now about $30 per tank which is great. I still owe 3 years on my loan. If the fix keeps me up there in MPG and VW compensates me for the loss in resale, I'd be a happy camper. I don't want to extend my debt past 3 years. So, by looking at the potential lists of solutions, it's going to take a while. I'm good with that because right now I haven't lost anything.
There is a lot of good info and smart people on here, so I can't wait to keep reading and learning.

 

[zellerj]

Retrofits don't make sense

(482,000 cars in US X 200,000 miles X 0.8 gm per km) / 0.62 miles per km = 2.8 X 10e12 grams NOx per fleet = 124,387 MT NOx emission per fleet over the life of the car.
Now how significant is this:
According to UN date, the US emits 100 Kg NOx per capita X 300 million people in the US = 30 million MT total per year X 15 years life of car = 240 Million MT NOx emitted by USA over 15 years
Percent VW NOx emissions in the US = 124,387 MT / 240 million X 100 =
0.027%
Which is pretty insignificant. As Shakespear said - much ado about nothing.
Regards

To have VW retrofit all of the offending vehicles does not make sense based on the amount of NOx they are emitting into the environment. Fine them big time for cheating, but don't punish the unsuspecting purchasers with fixes that we don't want. Use the fine to fund engineering research on cleaner diesels, batteries or what ever. To spend a lot of money retrofitting vehicles for no environmental gain does not make sense and would be a waste of money.

 

[Victor-Whiskey]

Sadly, you are stuck. As a company, they cannot say to you, "well, because of your unique situation, here are some special options". It's like the housing market, we bought our home for a reasonable price when the market was booming. We had kids, wanted a better school district and when we tried to sell our home the housing market tanked. Our home value dropped over 70%. We couldn't afford that loss, so we found the kids a charter school, we have to drive them to and from the school (which is over 10 miles away), we had to find people to carpool with to ensure we could pick up the kids everyday and we are are just having to deal with it. My mortgage only has about 1 year left, so I almost own the house outright, but its still only worth about 60% of what we paid for it. This is life. There is no corporation I can go to to help me recoup what was supposed to be, "the best investment I can make".


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Partially correct. However, if your house lost 70% of it's value because you found out it was built on toxic ground and the seller knew it and hid the fact, then you have recourse.

 

[hybridkiller]

They prob will switch focus more to electric but regardless, this attention in the US market is a massive opportunity for VAG in the US.

That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger? In the long run you are probably right. VW (at the very least) needs to take a good hard look at its internal corporate culture - and their often flawed approach to the US market is legend.

There will almost certainly be some serious corporate soul-searching in the wake of all this which can only be healthy for VW going forward.

To have VW retrofit all of the offending vehicles does not make sense based on the amount of NOx they are emitting into the environment. Fine them big time for cheating, but don't punish the unsuspecting purchasers with fixes that we don't want. Use the fine to fund engineering research on cleaner diesels, batteries or what ever. To spend a lot of money retrofitting vehicles for no environmental gain does not make sense and would be a waste of money.

Truth.

 

[Phil5651]

10/13/15 @ 9:22 EST

VW brand plans to change its diesel technology in Europe and North America as well as develop new hybrid and electric vehicles in response to its emissions scandal.


VW division head Herbert Diess said in a statement Tuesday the company would change its approach to diesel emissions in Europe and North America and adopt so-called selective catalytic converter technology, or SCR. That is a system that injects the chemical substance urea into the exhaust stream to neutralize harmful nitrogen oxides.
He said that change would come "as soon as possible."


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-governor-vw-admitted-deception-earlier-34435671

 

[Galo]

To have VW retrofit all of the offending vehicles does not make sense based on the amount of NOx they are emitting into the environment. Fine them big time for cheating, but don't punish the unsuspecting purchasers with fixes that we don't want. Use the fine to fund engineering research on cleaner diesels, batteries or what ever. To spend a lot of money retrofitting vehicles for no environmental gain does not make sense and would be a waste of money.

Most of us here would probably agree that's the smart thing to do. Then again, we're talking about the gummint, and....when was the last time they did something smart?

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Because you never do anything to your car?

Well if I posted on that thread, I'd be boring as hell. What did I do to my car today?

-Drove it
-Washed it
-Waxed it
-Put fuel in it
-Checked the oil
-Put washer fluid into it
-Took off summer tires and put on snow tires
-Took off snow tires and put on summer tires
-Took it to the dealer for servicing

On rare occasions, changed out a flat.

Not necessarily in that order.

My wife's car is the same except you could add "spewed out more than the legal limit of NOx"

 

[pfennig]

10/13/15 @ 9:22 EST

VW brand plans to change its diesel technology in Europe and North America as well as develop new hybrid and electric vehicles in response to its emissions scandal.


VW division head Herbert Diess said in a statement Tuesday the company would change its approach to diesel emissions in Europe and North America and adopt so-called selective catalytic converter technology, or SCR. That is a system that injects the chemical substance urea into the exhaust stream to neutralize harmful nitrogen oxides.
He said that change would come "as soon as possible."


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/german-governor-vw-admitted-deception-earlier-34435671

This seems so obviously to be a communications error (new TDIs already use urea) that it makes me wonder what I'm missing. Is he trying to say that "add SCR" is the official fix for gen 1 vehicles that had only LNT? If so, why can't they be more !@#% clear........

I'm still in warranty, and want to keep waranty as long as possible (e.g. the parts that were extended to 10y/120k) so I'm on pins and needles to find out what's going to happen to my car and whether it'll be forced on me to keep the waranty. These confusing statements piss me off..... but also keep me coming back to this thread. Please sir, may I have another?


I still suspect the 'compensation' to owners will be moderate at best (no MSRB buyback duh), but also still think in the end it will be best to take VW's offer and also get a $100 check from the final class action suit than to just take VW's offer and turn down any class action payout. !@#% CA lawyers know how to get themselves paid, bastards.

If I could get my money back through lemon law that'd be fantastic, but I don't think it's going to happen. If it did, I'd probably buy a GSW gasser -- this situation pisses me off, but it hasn't turned me off VW. The gas cars are still the same gas cars as before, it's not like the TDI scandal has revealed that they're faulty. And the USA has no other affordable wagons (volvo, subaru, bmw all much more expensive).

 

[rickc007]

To have VW retrofit all of the offending vehicles does not make sense based on the amount of NOx they are emitting into the environment. Fine them big time for cheating, but don't punish the unsuspecting purchasers with fixes that we don't want. Use the fine to fund engineering research on cleaner diesels, batteries or what ever. To spend a lot of money retrofitting vehicles for no environmental gain does not make sense and would be a waste of money.

Not sure if this is the "right" way to think, but I was a thinkin the Same Thing

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I seriously have to think if they update the exhaust system to add the "Add Blue urea" what and how much money they give me to maintain that system? Or will it just be free refills at the dealer then?
I would want a written statement from VW about all its details. One of the reasons I bought exactly THAT Golf TDI with MT was LOW MAINTENANCE and I did NOT WANT a Urea fill up and added cost every xK mi.
If nothing else Malone tune is my next best friend!

You will spend more on a tune to delete the AdBlue system than you will spend on a lifetime of exhaust fluid for he car.

Let's say it's $3/gallon (it's actually less if you purchase at a pump island) and you use 5 gallons in 7,500 miles. That's $15 every 7,500 miles, or two tenths of a cent per mile in exhaust fluid cost. Fluid cost is basically irrelevant in the grand scheme of vehicle operation, especially when you factor in the fuel mileage increase that SCR offers over LNT (you will save more money in fuel than you will spend on urea).

Considering that this option is being thrust on customers who may have purchase gen1 emissions vehicles specifically to avoid AdBlue, I think it would be smart for Volkswagen to offer free AdBlue fills and an extended component warranty for all TDIs that get modified. We'll see if that happens.

 

[hybridkiller]

...but also still think in the end it will be best to take VW's offer and also get a $100 check from the final class action suit than to just take VW's offer and turn down any class action payout.

If I could get my money back through lemon law that'd be fantastic, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I'd be very surprised if any cash compensation offered by VW wasn't conditional upon signing a liability waiver - IOW a promise not to sue, which would include participation in any CAL.

Yeah, lemon law wouldn't even apply here since you haven't lost functionality of the vehicle.

 

[autdi]

Considering that this option is being thrust on customers who may have purchase gen1 emissions vehicles specifically to avoid AdBlue, I think it would be smart for Volkswagen to offer free AdBlue fills and an extended component warranty for all TDIs that get modified. We'll see if that happens.

That only works if a dealer is convenient. Driving 1.5-2 hours for a "free" DEF fill is not really useful. The warranty would need to cover a lot more than the SCR, I'd expect a powertrain warranty to at least the emissions warranty point at 120k. I'd probably be looking for a warranty of anything within 3 feet of something they changed as well. So if they botch on the fix, and you get fender rust because they dinged up the inside of the fender putting something in, I expect it covered. All depends on how much has to be disassembled to make the fix happen, as to how wide the warranty needs to cover.

 

[Rico567]

Partially correct. However, if your house lost 70% of it's value because you found out it was built on toxic ground and the seller knew it and hid the fact, then you have recourse.

Unless you live in a state that allows "as-is" sales, this is a matter of state law. When I sold my uncle's house in CA, luckily an as-is sale* was allowed under probate, but not for most general real estate sales.

*NB: This did not involve an attempt to conceal anything, which is where any parallels to what VW did breaks down. Every known problem with the property was specifically disclosed to the buyers, and they had to sign off on that list at closing.

 

[oilhammer]

It also remains to be seen if the fuel savings with SCR will continue, or vanish, on cars that already had SCR, since they too seem to have failed the allowable NOx limit on the test drive.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Well, if not in cheat mode, what explains the differences between the tests? CR has an advanced auto testing facility that receives scrutiny from every auto manufacturer out there so the testing has to be accurate and verifiable. It's an early test and subject to verification but the implications are disturbing.

A low sample size (of one, from what I can tell) and operator error. A half second change in 0-60 is easy to do if you don't get the launch just right.

As for their fuel economy difference, something as simple as a head wind can cause the fuel economy change that they observed.

If they want to claim that these differences are cheat vs. non-cheat, they need to present us with a lot better data than they have.

 

[romroc]

Sadly, you are stuck. As a company, they cannot say to you, "well, because of your unique situation, here are some special options". It's like the housing market, we bought our home for a reasonable price when the market was booming. We had kids, wanted a better school district and when we tried to sell our home the housing market tanked. Our home value dropped over 70%. We couldn't afford that loss, so we found the kids a charter school, we have to drive them to and from the school (which is over 10 miles away), we had to find people to carpool with to ensure we could pick up the kids everyday and we are are just having to deal with it. My mortgage only has about 1 year left, so I almost own the house outright, but its still only worth about 60% of what we paid for it. This is life. There is no corporation I can go to to help me recoup what was supposed to be, "the best investment I can make".


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

This "argument" is false. VW conspired under Winterkorn and Peachy to defraud buyers into buying VW 'clean' diesels. There were many competitive choices including gasoline VW models.

A house's value may return. A car's merchantability and resale are impaired here directly as a result of fraudulent trade policy. Unlikely that value will recover, ever.

 

[romroc]

Having my morning coffee, scrolling for news...just pondering the whole situation and then it strikes me this may be the best thing to happen for diesel passenger cars ever depending on the outcome.

Imagine this....VW solves the EA189 issues at great expense and effort. Gets tested by every tree hugging orginazation on the planet and the tailpipe only emits rainbows and butterflies. Meanwhile the gassers get tested and lo and behold they come as violators of our sacred mother Earth.

Meanwhile the '16s finally get approved and turns out they are just slightly more evil to the environment as your Aunt's Prius.

VW advertising machine starts rolling.... Every manufacturer has been at fault, no car has had more scrutiny- Apologizes for employee caused debacle- reinforces commitment to customer to a much wider audience that didn't even know diesel cars existed before.

The media attention has opened up the market on these cars dramatically. If they get this right it could be a huge win for them.

They prob will switch focus more to electric but regardless, this attention in the US market is a massive opportunity for VAG in the US.

Are you tree hugging now? Try to get some real fresh air. You are dreaming, big time.

 

[roostre]

…..
Is he trying to say that "add SCR" is the official fix for gen 1 vehicles that had only LNT? If so, why can't they be more !@#% clear...…..

Below is a statement from Peter Thul a VW spokesman clarifying this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-emissions.html?_r=0

The change, which involves adding a tank of a urea-based fluid to clean exhaust, is aimed at new cars and is not part of its plan to fix those already in circulation, said Peter Thul, a spokesman for Volkswagen.

 

[jrock]

It also remains to be seen if the fuel savings with SCR will continue, or vanish, on cars that already had SCR, since they too seem to have failed the allowable NOx limit on the test drive.

I was always a little puzzled on how little DEF my Passat used compared to my EcoDiesel. I realize the RAM is a much larger and heavier vehicle with a larger engine, but the math still does not add up, percentage wise.

 

[bhtooefr]

It's also worth noting that Peter Thul works for Volkswagen AG, not Volkswagen of America.

This is the European solution, adding SCR to all diesels they sell in the future, and not retrofitting it to noncompliant diesels. They've already done that as of model year 2015 in the US.

 

[HARd_NOx_LIFe]

Investment opinion article. Simple register required to access.

To Volkswagen Or Not To Volkswagen? - October 13
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3567296-to-volkswagen-or-not-to-volkswagen?

 

[TCBinaflash]

It's also worth noting that Peter Thul works for Volkswagen AG, not Volkswagen of America.

This is the European solution, adding SCR to all diesels they sell in the future, and not retrofitting it to noncompliant diesels. They've already done that as of model year 2015 in the US.

For Europe specifically. In the US we ARE getting SCR.

"Paul Willis, general manager of Volkswagen Group in Britain, said on Monday that repairs for diesels sold in Europe would not involve the installation of a new emission filtration system using urea as an additive. But such a remedy is expected in many vehicles in the United States, which has tougher standards for emissions of nitrogen oxides or NOx, which have been linked to a host of respiratory and cardiovascular illnesses."

 

[VeeDubTDI]

It also remains to be seen if the fuel savings with SCR will continue, or vanish, on cars that already had SCR, since they too seem to have failed the allowable NOx limit on the test drive.

The excessive NOx emissions are more likely due to DEF dosing than due to engine programming. We've already established that VW's dosing rate is well below the industry standard.

I don't expect a significant drop in fuel economy as a result of SCR retrofits or SCR adjustments, but what the hell do I know? I'm just some guy on an internet forum.

I personally think that gen2 emissions cars ('12 - '14 Passats) may see a slight fuel economy penalty as a result of tune adjustments, but I expect gen1 emissions cars that get gen2 or gen3 retrofits will see an improvement in fuel economy.

 

[kevin_in_idaho]

Below is a statement from Peter Thul a VW spokesman clarifying this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-emissions.html?_r=0

Wow. Very, very, very bad marketing. I don't know who at VW is behind this but I would never call something "selective" after all of this.