Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[gcodori]

VW needs to save face. They need to flip the switch at the Tennessee plant and start building the euro Passat here. They need to build the Passat GTE, and do it soon. The plant is already equipped to build the newer platforms.

It will never happen (VW doesn't take the US market seriously) but one can dream. And it would be cheaper if it was made here (for those who say the euro Passat would be too expensive). Just skip the xenons and the digital dash.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/volkswagen/passat-gte

The latest announcement about going this direction - then they should just do it already. Build the alltrack and skip the 7 seater that no one is going to buy (it will be too small anyway - based on the Golf).

 

[tomo366]

The bad news: US TDI buyers were comprised of a relatively tiny group with a cult-like mentality.

The good news: US TDI buyers are still comprised of a relatively tiny group with a cult-like mentality.



Word.

Actually this is wrong.......only about 1 in 5 folks that buy a TDI Car sign up on this site and of those on this site probably only about 15% post here....
These have the Cult Mentality......not than many though.....
I am Keeping Mine!!

 

[linux_author]

I think the biggest news here is that China has an air "quality watchdog"

"AQSIQ: China's quality watchdog announced today that it was "highly concerned" about the mechanism in Volkswagen's diesel cars designed to trick emissions tests and would take appropriate follow-up measures."

thanks for this - best laugh i've had all day!

willie
on the 'now that's funny right there' Gulf of Mexico

 

[yadent]

CO2 and 'climate change'

Write your congressman.
Unfortunately, our Congress never signed the Kyoto protocol treaty and is in denial on CO2 and it's effects on climate change.
The EPA enforces laws om the books and rules derived from those laws.
Arguments on which is worse, CO2 or NOx are irrelevant untis such time that CO2 is a regulated emission.
The question is: Did VW break the law or not?

Maybe you missed this or ignored it or deny it but it does put a kink in the 'human caused climate warming/cooling' scenario--------"A MATHEMATICAL discovery by Perth-based electrical engineer Dr David Evans may change everything about the climate debate, on the eve of the UN climate change conference in Paris next month.
A former climate modeller for the Government’s Australian Greenhouse Office, with six degrees in applied mathematics, Dr Evans has unpacked the architecture of the basic climate model which underpins all climate science.
He has found that, while the underlying physics of the model is correct, it had been applied incorrectly.
He has fixed two errors and the new corrected model finds the climate’s sensitivity to carbon dioxide (CO2) is much lower than was thought.
It turns out the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has over-estimated future global warming by as much as 10 times, he says.”(source--http://www.ntnews.com.au/lifestyle/miranda-devine-perth-electrical-engineers-discovery-will-change-climate-change-debate/story-fnk0b1ks-1227555674611)
Of course VW 'broke the law' as it is written. VW should face the consequences of it's failure to obey it as they voluntarily marketed vehicles as being compliant under said law.

 

[Nexus7]

Why are the EPA such lazy asses?

Why can't they strap testing equipment to cars and take 'em out for a drive? There are places in,say , California, that have relatively constant weather all-year, eliminating that as a variable. They can have a prescribed course, and a testing cycle. Like they used to test in the good 'ol days. Why are we in limbo because the EPA is incompetent?

 

[crazyrunner33]

Depending on exactly what Volkswagen ends up doing, it's possible that gen1 LNT emissions cars (2009 - 2014 Golf, Jetta, Beetle, A3) could get better fuel economy if they upgrade them to gen3 SCR. If that's the case, CO2 would be reduced via a reduction in fuel consumption. That's right, I'm speculating that an SCR retrofit, depending on which one, could actually increase fuel economy.
I think the more likely scenario is that they'll get a gen2 SCR retrofit like the 2012 - 2014 Passats have, and fuel economy may improve slightly, if at all. I find it very unlikely that gen1 cars that receive an SCR retrofit will end up getting worse fuel economy.

That's exactly what I was thinking, plus the ash load in the DPF shouldn't fill up as quickly. If the retrofit is done right without sacrificing space, I would be a happy camper.

It's funny, the 6.7 Cummins used to have an emission system to the gen 1 TDI, But Cummins finally went with SCR in 2013. The result has been an increase in reliability and a huge bump in fuel economy. Heck, my father's heavier 6.7 Cummins with a slush box achieves higher fuel economy than my 12 valve with a manual.
http://cumminshub.com/emissions.html

 

[Marsupial]

This is an interesting about face from VW. It's not totally surprising given that the TDI emissions scandal could potentially kill the company. It appears to be a business survival strategy and to save face.

It will be interesting to see how many of VW's customers in Europe switch to gasser hybrids when it eventually comes time to replace their beloved TDIs. I see this as a good business opportunity for other manufacturers to gain market share with their diesel car offerings.

Although I'm no longer a TDI owner and own BMW diesels, I'm still open to owning TDIs again. No more new TDIs in the future means no more VWs for me.

To tell the truth, when I was shopping for a car last year, I would have not even looked at a TDI if VW had a Golf with the same hybrid setup as the Jetta. I didn't want the hybrid Jetta because it was not a MQB platform (still isn't in the USA) and the battery pack takes way too much space in the trunk. If there was an MQB Golf with that hybrid system and the battery pack hidden under the rear seats and under trunk floor, I would've been looking at that instead of a TDI. Maybe as a result of this TDI fiasco, we'll finally see such a car in the USA - not likely though since VW does not think anybody in the US will want it.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Why can't they strap testing equipment to cars and take 'em out for a drive? There are places in,say , California, that have relatively constant weather all-year, eliminating that as a variable. They can have a prescribed course, and a testing cycle. Like they used to test in the good 'ol days. Why are we in limbo because the EPA is incompetent?

Really? I don't understand the anger that's being projected at the EPA about this.

What "good 'ol days" testing are you talking about? Are you implying that the EPA went out and road-tested every single vehicle in the real world? If so, that's news to me!

 

[Riflesmith]

Typically, optimizing for CO2 (reducing CO2) increases NOx. By improving the capability to reduce NOx thru the urea injection systems downstream of the cat, the engine can be tuned for slightly better power and reduced CO2.

Witness the new TDIs (with optimized urea systems) have 150HP versus the Gen 1's 140HP

Carbon in equals carbon out. The only source of CO2 emissions in any engine comes exclusively from the fuel. Engines cannot be tuned to reduce CO2. Our ridiculous emissions laws decrease fuel economy via EGR and DPF regenerations in order to reduce NOx(in non-SCR engines). Decreasing fuel economy, of course, increases CO2.

 

[SGI]

Maybe you missed this or ignored it or deny it but it does put a kink in the 'human caused climate warming/cooling' scenario--------"A MATHEMATICAL discovery by Perth-based electrical engineer Dr David Evans may change everything about the climate debate, on the eve of the UN climate change conference in Paris next month.
A former climate modeller for the Government’s Australian Greenhouse Office, with six degrees in applied mathematics, Dr Evans has unpacked the architecture of the basic climate model which underpins all climate science.
He has found that, while the underlying physics of the model is correct, it had been applied incorrectly.
He has fixed two errors and the new corrected model finds the climate’s sensitivity to carbon dioxide (CO2) is much lower than was thought.
It turns out the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has over-estimated future global warming by as much as 10 times, he says.”(source--http://www.ntnews.com.au/lifestyle/miranda-devine-perth-electrical-engineers-discovery-will-change-climate-change-debate/story-fnk0b1ks-1227555674611)
Of course VW 'broke the law' as it is written. VW should face the consequences of it's failure to obey it as they voluntarily marketed vehicles as being compliant under said law.

Perhaps you should read: http://www.skepticalscience.com/david-evans-understanding-goes-cold.html

 

[TDIpilot4u]

Current production on the 2016 Passat is increasing at the Chattanooga plant. We are all confused as to what VW is doing. Initially, we were only building the 4 cylinder gas engine for the US market for California only. We were building the diesel engines for Canada only. We built a few 4 and 5 cylinder gas engines for Mexico and Saudi Arabia. Last week the day after the news broke that VW was pulling the request for certifying the diesel engines in the US, guess what happened? We started building the US diesel every 2 or 3 cars on the line. The difference is, the US cars are missing the headlights and front bumpers and grills. They are wrapping them and parking them in the outside lot. We increased production to 180 cars per shift, 2 shifts total.

We aren't sure what the reasoning behind the US diesels are unless they plan on stockpiling them and getting certification approval at a later date. Either way, building only California gas engines only and none for the rest of the US is causing everyone to be concerned for our future here. We built 180 total cars on day shift yesterday (Monday).

We were told last week that the fix isn't going to be easy for existing TDI's. If the software upgrades don't fix the emission problems we were told the other option might be a new engine install. Could be a very costly and difficult fix. Yes, we are worried about our future here.

Thanks for the insight. Feel for all of you, uncertainty sucks. As for being told about the new engine option...which cars would that be for?

 

[hybridkiller]

Actually this is wrong.......only about 1 in 5 folks that buy a TDI Car sign up on this site and of those on this site probably only about 15% post here....

#1 go back and read the comment I was responding to

#2 my remark was intended to be humorous, not a statement of fact

#3 nowhere did I refer to internet enthusiast forums, this website, or any other for that matter

 

[DerekG]

Rofl


http://jalopnik.com/this-is-the-apology-letter-vw-sent-to-diesel-owners-an-1736298817

"And, yes, I guess I did have a defeat device or two in there, but all that’s over now.

Seriously, baby, you can check my phone and everything. Any time you want.

So, okay, maybe I did lie to those agencies, and maybe the car that I so love to see you drive, the one you look so damn sexy in, maybe that car is emitting about 10 to 40 times more pollutants than I said.

But, damn, do you look fine in that [MACRO: INSERT CAR MODEL HERE]."

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Current production on the 2016 Passat is increasing at the Chattanooga plant. We are all confused as to what VW is doing. Initially, we were only building the 4 cylinder gas engine for the US market for California only. We were building the diesel engines for Canada only. We built a few 4 and 5 cylinder gas engines for Mexico and Saudi Arabia. Last week the day after the news broke that VW was pulling the request for certifying the diesel engines in the US, guess what happened? We started building the US diesel every 2 or 3 cars on the line. The difference is, the US cars are missing the headlights and front bumpers and grills. They are wrapping them and parking them in the outside lot. We increased production to 180 cars per shift, 2 shifts total.

We aren't sure what the reasoning behind the US diesels are unless they plan on stockpiling them and getting certification approval at a later date. Either way, building only California gas engines only and none for the rest of the US is causing everyone to be concerned for our future here. We built 180 total cars on day shift yesterday (Monday).

We were told last week that the fix isn't going to be easy for existing TDI's. If the software upgrades don't fix the emission problems we were told the other option might be a new engine install. Could be a very costly and difficult fix. Yes, we are worried about our future here.

PB,

Thanks for checking in! It's very interesting that the US diesels are missing their front body components. Do the cars have VINs?

I would be very surprised to see complete engine-swaps on the table. I think they have a number of other options before going down that road, including SCR retrofits to cars without it, which a number of us think is the most likely solution.

Please keep us informed.

 

[TDIMeister]

My guess is that the Passats are destined to foreign markets with different headlight and bumper requirements. Not Canada though - ours are harmonized with those of the US.

 

[Tailwagger]

We aren't sure what the reasoning behind the US diesels are unless they plan on stockpiling them and getting certification approval at a later date. Either way, building only California gas engines only and none for the rest of the US is causing everyone to be concerned for our future here. We built 180 total cars on day shift yesterday (Monday).

Sounds like they are going to Europe to me as they are DEF equipped.

 

[hybridkiller]

We started building the US diesel every 2 or 3 cars on the line. The difference is, the US cars are missing the headlights and front bumpers and grills. They are wrapping them and parking them in the outside lot. We increased production to 180 cars per shift, 2 shifts total.

My guess is that the Passats are destined to foreign markets with different headlight and bumper requirements.

Sounds like they are going to Europe to me as they are DEF equipped.

??? He said "US cars" ??? Seems to know what he's talking about...

 

[crazyrunner33]

Sounds like they are going to Europe to me as they are DEF equipped.

All of the newer VW TDI engines in the US market are DEF equipped.

 

[Lucidexp]

Maybe you missed this or ignored it or deny it but it does put a kink in the 'human caused climate warming/cooling' scenario--------"A MATHEMATICAL discovery by Perth-based electrical engineer Dr David Evans may change everything about the climate debate, on the eve of the UN climate change conference in Paris next month.
A former climate modeller for the Government’s Australian Greenhouse Office, with six degrees in applied mathematics, Dr Evans has unpacked the architecture of the basic climate model which underpins all climate science.
He has found that, while the underlying physics of the model is correct, it had been applied incorrectly.
He has fixed two errors and the new corrected model finds the climate’s sensitivity to carbon dioxide (CO2) is much lower than was thought.
It turns out the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has over-estimated future global warming by as much as 10 times, he says.”(source--http://www.ntnews.com.au/lifestyle/miranda-devine-perth-electrical-engineers-discovery-will-change-climate-change-debate/story-fnk0b1ks-1227555674611)
Of course VW 'broke the law' as it is written. VW should face the consequences of it's failure to obey it as they voluntarily marketed vehicles as being compliant under said law.

So shortly after marrying his now wife Jo Nova (http://joannenova.com.au/) a known climate change denier all of a sudden he had a chance of heart. Seems legit.

Then again I live in San Diego and the median temp is 20 degrees warmer today than it is typically, which seems odd except for the fact that the last 5 years have been the warmest 5 years ever.

 

[Rico567]

I think the biggest news here is that China has an air "quality watchdog"

"AQSIQ: China's quality watchdog announced today that it was "highly concerned" about the mechanism in Volkswagen's diesel cars designed to trick emissions tests and would take appropriate follow-up measures."

We were in several cities in China in '09, and as far as Beijing is concerned, residents of the L.A. basin should get down and kiss the ground in thanks that they live there and not in Beijing. We sat in the departure lounge at the airport, and could -just- see the 777 we were going to board. Nothing else; the sun was a bit above the horizon, but only managed to be visible as a dimly glowing tangerine. Everything I've heard since indicates that their "watchdog" is continuing to emit some really smoggy farts.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

We really need to steer this discussion back to Volkswagen's emissions, not the global climate. There is a CO2 thread here if you want to talk about it specifically: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448937

 

[yadent]

A pissing match

Perhaps you should read: http://www.skepticalscience.com/david-evans-understanding-goes-cold.html

For every article for, there is another scientific one against--- http://nzclimatescience.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=377&Itemid=32 , or http://joannenova.com.au/2015/10/new-science-8-applying-the-stefan-boltzmann-law-to-earth/, or http://joannenova.com.au/2015/10/ne...s-treated-the-same-the-ground-is-not-the-sky/ or.....
Point being regarding this thread is that my Passat 2015 TDI is probably producing less CO2 than most vehicles on the road, if it really matters all that much. As for NOx, I have yet to see any data that shows the 2015 Passat with the EA288 engine, is exceeding EPA limits on this gas or any of the other listed engine exhaust pollutants. I have also yet to receive an answer from VW regarding the removal of the 'cheat code' from this Passat year/model as to whether it will affect performance, fuel consumption, or DEF usage.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

 

[bizzle]

??? He said "US cars" ??? Seems to know what he's talking about...

He did say "US cars" but that could be in reference to specs. Building them to CARB standards would satisfy even the most strictest countries' emissions standards, including states other than California.

There's nothing really conclusive about them being built to CARB standards meaning they have to be sold only in CARB compliant states. The fastest recertification process is going to hinge on VW pointing to a known compliant standard and then shipping them out as fast as possible.

The thing holding the current year models up is the mere presence of the cheat software, not necessarily the emissions coming out the tailpipe.

Demonstrate the cheat software is removed, standards are CARB, and EPA will fast track their 2016 certification. I can't imagine EPA wanting VW to lose an entire model year of sales. That doesn't help anyone and so far VW has been relatively open, contrite, and willing to resolve the issues quickly so everyone should be willing to smooth the regulatory process.

 

[TDILeo]

PB,
Thanks for checking in! It's very interesting that the US diesels are missing their front body components. Do the cars have VINs?
I would be very surprised to see complete engine-swaps on the table. I think they have a number of other options before going down that road, including SCR retrofits to cars without it, which a number of us think is the most likely solution.
Please keep us informed.

For some reason, I would be more agreeable to an entire engine swap with integrated SCR as opposed to a retrofit SCR for my gen I Golf. But, boy howdy, how would that program be implemented?

Yeah, I don't see that happening, but I suppose everything is on the table at this point.

 

[pfennig]

As much as I'd love to chime in with a snarky joke about why the ice is thin.... I'd only be able to do that by also being on thin ice. Listen to VeeDubTDI folks, skip the chatter about climate change. It's not productive, even by the standards of this thread.


If VWoA's official response ends up being something like "so sorry TDI buyer, have a retune and new exhaust system to make you compliant, and $1k to cover your devaluation / reduced eficiency / urea hassle", would they legally be able to say you only get that if you agree to give up your right to sue or join a class action lawsuit? In other previous cases where an auto manufacturer did something bad and paid owners (e.g. CMAX MPG claims perhaps) did getting compensation require signing papers to give up your rights?

It's lawyers, so I'd guess the answer is "yes, and you also agree to never talk to the press and to give us your first born".

 

[bizzle]

If they did all that and it fixed the issues there wouldn't be any damages to sue over.

One can't sue for hypothetical damages.

You also have an obligation to not exacerbate damages, so you can't simply refuse an offer that would repair the issue and go for more damages "just because."

 

[roostre]

Performance would suffer on LNT cars because in order to reduce engine-out NOx (pre-treatment), you must run a lot of EGR and be careful with timing advance. LNT's handicap is that is can only do so much, and the NOx storage must be regenerated frequently, which reduces fuel economy beyond what the "clean" tuning reduces it - a double-whammy of sorts.
…..

Thanks VeeDubTDI, for the simple explanation and also for being a stabilizing influence on this forum.

Forum member “sapgar” posted an article on a different thread that I have not seen posted on this thread. The article contains a concise but seemingly thorough comparison of the Gen 1, Gen 2, and Gen 3 TDI emission systems:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4917746&postcount=90

Below is a direct link to the article:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09/20150921-vw2l.html

 

[jperlow]

If they did all that and it fixed the issues there wouldn't be any damages to sue over.

One can't sue for hypothetical damages.

You also have an obligation to not exacerbate damages, so you can't simply refuse an offer that would repair the issue and go for more damages "just because."

Not necessarily true. The de-valuation of the cars plus the emotional damage of having contributed to polluting the environment as well as being defrauded is enough to be considered damage. Just because VW "fixes" the vehicle (and "fix" would be a very broad term, it depends if it satisfies the consumer on a number of aspects, and not everyone has the same criterion for satisfaction) doesn't meant there still aren't damages. Certainly if the Blue Book on the car has devalued and stays that way after a fix means there was wrongdoing.

 

[1854sailor]

...the emotional damage of having contributed to polluting the environment...