EPA Hits Two More Diesel Tuners With $10 Million Fine For Defeat Devices

[ticaf]

There can be multiple way to handle the battery situation. A subscription allowing swapping batteries makes a lot of sense for some people, not all.

In any case, after watching people queuing for GAS at every rest stops this Thanksgiving weekend, it become obvious we cannot have 100% electric cars and be able to travel during a busy weekend like Thanksgiving. In order to do that, you would need 100 supercharger stalls at every rest stops.

 

[nwdiver]

In order to do that, you would need 100 supercharger stalls at every rest stops.

Yep.

 

[Jr mason]

Yep.

Great, now multiply that by 140,000 give or take.
Ad in a few hundred large scale additional electric plants while your at it.

 

[nwdiver]

Great, now multiply that by 140,000 give or take.
Ad in a few hundred large scale additional electric plants while your at it.

There's ~160k miles of highway in the US. Give or Take. Every 50 miles is more than enough. That's ~3,200 not 140,000 and most of those don't need to be giant 100 bay stations.

You also don't need to generate electricity at these sites, just store it so they can handle the few hours of peak demand. Kettleman has ~100 bays now, no power plant aside from solar canopies and it's doing just fine. Only ~10% of charging is done at fast chargers. The remaining ~90% is done conveniently and cheaply wherever the car is parked at home, work, hotels, restaurants or while shopping.

 

[Jr mason]

Until you hit peak hours and your Gov goes public telling you not to charge and turn your A/C off, or they will do it for you in the form of a blackout.
That with less than 20% EV take rate in CA. I can't wait to see the show unfold out there in the next several years. It'll be an expensive lesson for some.

 

[turbobrick240]

The EV take rate actually just exceeded 20% in California this past quarter. It's growing rapidly despite the overall auto market contracting significantly. The grid will be built out accordingly.

California: Plug-In Car Sales Reached 20% Market Share In Q3 2022

New vehicle sales in California continue to decrease, although all-electric car sales note consistent growth and reached a new record market share.

insideevs-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Jr mason]

I only used CA as an example because of their idiotic mandates despite the fragile state of their grid. Having the best incentives in the country is the only reason they're as popular as they are. That and, well it's CA. What can you say? They aren't known as the land of fruits and nuts for nothing

The USA as a whole is barely 1% EV take rate, a much better snapshot of just how popular they actually are.

The grid will be built out accordingly.
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There's been no evidence to support this, yet. California is famous for getting the cart in front of the horse and then wondering why in the hell the horse got run over.

 

[Abacus]

Arizona is similar. They’ll give you a free Nest thermostat but you have to agree they can log in and adjust your AC temp upwards to save power because the grid is near capacity already. Toss in a bunch of EV’s across the state and it’ll push things over the edge.

 

[turbobrick240]

There's been no evidence to support this, yet. California is famous for getting the cart in front of the horse and then wondering why in the hell the horse got run over.

There's plenty of evidence. Both California and Texas are adding solar and wind generation capacity at an unprecedented rate. California is more famous for powering a disproportionate slice of the US economy.

 

[Jr mason]

Again, the evidence suggests otherwise. 2020 was the first time in over 2 decades they dealt with widespread rolling blackouts that weren't fire related. That's not progess.

Since then the state has been rife with flex alerts and stage 2 and 3 emergencies, which gives the Utility owners the right to rotate outages throughout the state.

Cart in front of the horse.

 

[nwdiver]

Cart in front of the horse.

Doesn't the grid need more storage to add more renewables? EVs are storage. They're not a liability for the grid. They will soon be its greatest asset. EVs are the cart AND the horse.

Duke Energy Testing V2G Technology With Ford F-150 Lightning Trucks In Florida

 

[Zak99b5]

But as you’ve said, you plug in your vehicle to charge at home overnight when demand on the grid is low. And solar output is little to none, so you’re not storing any of that.

If you leave it plugged in at work during higher demand times, now your battery is low when it’s time to drive home if it’s been feeding the grid. No thanks.

 

[Jr mason]

Doesn't the grid need more storage to add more renewables? EVs are storage. They're not a liability for the grid. They will soon be its greatest asset. EVs are the cart AND the horse.

Duke Energy Testing V2G Technology With Ford F-150 Lightning Trucks In Florida

I've read about this. Sounds good in theory but like most of the battery tech I have my doubts. "Most" people plug in their vehicles at night, solely based on their schedules. This coincides with when the grid is at its lightest demand.
Which begs the question, are you charging or supplying? Will you have an option, or will you come out to your vehicle (regardless of time of day/night) expecting a full charge only to find they "needed" the energy more than you did and now have less charge than when you parked it.

It sounds an awful lot like the thermostat game mentioned above to me. Convenient until it isn't.

 

[x1800MODMY360x]

Arizona is similar. They’ll give you a free Nest thermostat but you have to agree they can log in and adjust your AC temp upwards to save power because the grid is near capacity already. Toss in a bunch of EV’s across the state and it’ll push things over the edge.

Which they don't give much credit for, like $25 a year per thermostat, and my work did install like 5-8 thermostat in the last two years for them. Hell I wouldn't let them touch my thermostat.

 

[nwdiver]

But as you’ve said, you plug in your vehicle to charge at home overnight when demand on the grid is low. And solar output is little to none, so you’re not storing any of that.

If you leave it plugged in at work during higher demand times, now your battery is low when it’s time to drive home if it’s been feeding the grid. No thanks.

You're forgetting wind. Wind usually peaks at ~2am.

Unless you're working the late shift demand is low and solar is high during most working hours. There's usually a ~$0.10 difference between peak and off-peak energy value. On Flex Days that can rise to a $1. Even with a smaller battery you can cycle 20kWh and still have plenty of room to get around town. That's >$60/mo for just having your car plugged in. >$180/mo with a larger battery like the Ford Lightning has. You'd say no to that?

Which begs the question, are you charging or supplying? Will you have an option, or will you come out to your vehicle (regardless of time of day/night) expecting a full charge only to find they "needed" the energy more than you did and now have less charge than when you parked it.

It sounds an awful lot like the thermostat game mentioned above to me. Convenient until it isn't.

V2G is still years from being helpful. Even just charging EVs are an asset. To add more solar generation at 5pm when it's REALLY needed more solar needs to be added. The less solar that goes to waste between 7am and 3pm the more incentive there is to add solar.

Of course it will be an option. And don't you think that most people are going to find it a lot easier to get their cars charged after 10pm or before 3pm than to use their HVAC less when it's 100F outside.

 

[turbobrick240]

The highest electricity demand period is typically after people get home from work until about 8-9:00. Some people will charge during the day when there is abundant solar, and many others will charge at night when demand/rates are low. Both helping to balance out the supply.

 

[JELLOWSUBMARINE]

Ill try to restrain opinion here and stick to actual "boots on the ground" facts. Im not going to site charts and debatable "facts", check actual common guy truths. First of all I presently reside in this God forsaken (literally) state called California, so I'm speaking first hand. You know you've just crossed the boarder into Ca. by how destroyed the roads become. Im also prequalifing my electric car comments on first hand hybrid ownership as the wife traded in her Subaru for a 19' prius prime plug in.

Do we have the infrastructure? Well yesterday we had a power outage. More and more common. See next question on states abilities.

Can Ca. afford to upgrade the grid? Anyone hear of all the electric caused fires that are burning this state down? Just PG&E vrs. state finger pointing and lawsuits in reality so far.
Not to mention the fraudulent mail in voting. that one proposition would have put a small % 1.6 tax increase on 2 million + income. Instead it dumped relatively high load on "Joe the plumber". This was for our overreaching electric fantasies.

What about wind? When you drive by acres & acres of non operational windmill siting stagnate it just makes you wonder??? I know the loud talk now is all the birds that are killed by the blades! YIKES! * (inject sarcasm here)

Does Ca. have financial ability to actually move forward? Maybe... if you're the governor If you can stop the major bleeding of all the overtax and over regulated business from fleeing the state.

Do I benefit from buying electric? IDK, maybe in some cases. They used to offer things like exemptions for commute lane charges. No mo ability to get that tag, gotcha sucka' i guess.

Am I o.k. with owning the plug in? Yeah overall. Mainly because it has a 35 mile range for a couple dollar slow charge 110v. That covers the wifes daily task driving and saves the short trips on the JSW.

Will the benefits last? Resounding no. Power grid failure. Planned price increases. New Environmental issues with electric?

Make no mistake, especially if you look up to Ca.'s lead(?) The ULTIMATE goal is no fossel fuel and to be further precise mass transit only.

Side note: Why was elite Gubner newsome wearing a sweater when pushing a "turn your a/c down" commercial? Answer; When in an ultra cooled oversized mansion (not state owned but personal on tax payers dime), it can be damn tough.

 

[kjclow]

There's ~160k miles of highway in the US. Give or Take. Every 50 miles is more than enough. That's ~3,200 not 140,000 and most of those don't need to be giant 100 bay stations.

You also don't need to generate electricity at these sites, just store it so they can handle the few hours of peak demand. Kettleman has ~100 bays now, no power plant aside from solar canopies and it's doing just fine. Only ~10% of charging is done at fast chargers. The remaining ~90% is done conveniently and cheaply wherever the car is parked at home, work, hotels, restaurants or while shopping.

However, when you're on a trip, you don't have the luxury of charging at your house every night. My trip this summer was about 1200 miles each way. We chose to stop overnight to break it up but that still leaves about 600 miles per day. Even on fast chargers, it would have required stopping to charge for 45 minutes each day. Plus charging at the hotel and our friends house when we get there. We stopped for fuel once and saw that the Tesla chargers were all full. After filling, biobreaks, and getting snacks, those cars hooked up to the chargers were still there.

 

[nwdiver]

Will the benefits last? Resounding no. Power grid failure. Planned price increases. New Environmental issues with electric?

How does adding storage to a grid that increasingly needs more storage not have a lasting benefit? We need to use less fossil fuels, quickly. What's a better solution?

And if you're worried about birds maybe start with cats and work your way down the list...

Even on fast chargers, it would have required stopping to charge for 45 minutes each day.

If you're not taking ~45 minutes worth of breaks on an 8 hour trip you probably should be...

 

[turbobrick240]

If you're not taking ~45 minutes worth of breaks on an 8 hour trip you probably should be...

Most definitely. Being sedentary for that long just isn't healthy. I'm still fairly young, but if I don't get out and stretch my legs and arms on long trips, my shoulder that I injured years ago will be incredibly sore for a week or so after I reach my destination. My dog likes the breaks too.

 

[JELLOWSUBMARINE]

How does adding storage to a grid that increasingly needs more storage not have a lasting benefit? We need to use less fossil fuels, quickly. What's a better solution?

And if you're worried about birds maybe start with cats and work your way down the list...

Not debating storage needs. To my point, supporting these massive needs takes a big, expensive step or better put, a large carbon footprint if the state can even finance it. again isn't that counter to what most greener than thous are after???

L.O.L. the birds thing isn't a issue with me. Just my sarcasm can be easily confused I guess.

 

[nwdiver]

Not debating storage needs. To my point, supporting these massive needs takes a big, expensive step or better put, a large carbon footprint if the state can even finance it. again isn't that counter to what most greener than thous are after???

Sure. I wanted to save money but spent $10k on solar, a YUGE expense. But in the last 10 years that array has saved me >$20k. The carbon cost is no different. Even in the worst case EVs on average have less than half the impact of ICE over their life. And that's not counting EOL recycling or the fringe benefits they offer as storage. Doesn't have to be perfect, just better than fossil fuels. What's a better way to reduce our dependency?

 

[kjclow]

Doesn't the grid need more storage to add more renewables? EVs are storage. They're not a liability for the grid. They will soon be its greatest asset. EVs are the cart AND the horse.

Duke Energy Testing V2G Technology With Ford F-150 Lightning Trucks In Florida

Ask those people in Florida who's house was under 12 feet of water how well their Lightning worked for power after the hurricane.

 

[kjclow]

If you're not taking ~45 minutes worth of breaks on an 8 hour trip you probably should be...

We stop about every 2 hours for about 10 minutes. Time to hit the potty and do a little stretching. Check road conditions. Switch drivers and go. So yes, we might get 45 minutes in 8 hours but it's spread out over 3-4 different breaks. We would still need those in addition to the charging stops.

 

[nwdiver]

Ask those people in Florida who's house was under 12 feet of water how well their Lightning worked for power after the hurricane.

They said they couldn't have used the power anyway since their house was under 12 feet of water...

Stopping for ~10 minutes every 2 hours is probably going to be enough to charge.

Here's a ~6 hour trip, requires 2 stops for ~18 minutes.

Screen Shot 2022-05-16 at 10.25.17 PM.png

• nwdiver
• May 16, 2022

 

[JELLOWSUBMARINE]

Sure. I wanted to save money but spent $10k on solar, a YUGE expense. But in the last 10 years that array has saved me >$20k. The carbon cost is no different. Even in the worst case EVs on average have less than half the impact of ICE over their life. And that's not counting EOL recycling or the fringe benefits they offer as storage. Doesn't have to be perfect, just better than fossil fuels. What's a better way to reduce our dependency?

There are numbers are out there to support both sides... really. It sometimes comes down to who's got the best persuasive argument. I'm not here to do that. I really take a long overview with such complex issues as this. What is lost, what is gained. Did the end game produce good or bad results? Was the loss greater than the gain?

Reduce dependency? No matter what the media claims, that was once us, not so long ago. makes you wonder what was done right? oh that's right opened pipelines, refineries. HOLD ON, I know whats next... I'll bet we were the gross pollutors of the world. Nope, we have highest standards and quit possibly cleanest country on the globe. Why not expend efforts effectively for much better results elsewhere. Effort towards, lets just call them the worlds gross polluters.. China, India ect maybe for starters.... Like the maintenance saying goes "20% of the equipment gives 80% of the trouble". But then again we can follow Californias great lead, throw away everything that made this nation work and daydream it into reality.

 

[nwdiver]

There are numbers are out there to support both sides... really.

The highest break-even I’ve seen is ~80k miles. And that was with a grid powered entirely from coal which really no longer exists anywhere. Doesn’t appear to be much ambiguity with the numbers. EVs are better the only question is by how much.

 

[JELLOWSUBMARINE]

Not sure what you mean?

 

[Jr mason]

The highest break-even I’ve seen is ~80k miles. And that was with a grid powered entirely from coal which really no longer exists anywhere. Doesn’t appear to be much ambiguity with the numbers. EVs are better the only question is by how much.

Does that include or exclude the tax credits and annual registration costs that states have begun to apply?
How about 180k miles or say 15 years of ownership? Some people value long term ownership. Not everyone turns their keys in every 3-5 years.
Not trying to be negative, that's just the reality.

 

[nwdiver]

Not sure what you mean?

After < 80k miles the fuel + manufacturing energy consumed are lower for an EV vs ICE.

If China and India want to keep using oil for energy that’s fine. But better they buy from the US than Ruzzia. Best way for us to export more oil is to burn less. What’s a better way to do that?