Cam ? on '04 PD 247,000 miles

mctdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Location
se WI
TDI
2010 Jetta
2/1/9 - UPDATE -
Lifter pics in post # 97 of page # 7


9/6/8 - UPDATE -

Well I finally took time to list the parts used in replacing the camshaft. Sorry for the delay.


Part____________________Part Number ___________Qty. ____Cost Each

Camshaft--------------038-109-101-R--------------------1-------------$699.51----------------$699.51
Camshaft Bearings-------------038-103-673-B-GLB------------10------------$13.50-----------------$135.00
Cam Bearing Cap Bolts------038-103-714-----------------------10------------$4.63-------------------$46.30
Cam Followers------------------038-109-309-C---------------------8-------------$42.37-----------------$338.96
Sealant-----------------------------AMV-174-004-01------------------1-------------$49.23-----------------$49.23
Rocker Arm Shafts------------038-109-527-AF--------------------2------------$285.17----------------$570.34
Rocker Arm Shaft Bolts-----038-103-714-A----------------------8------------$6.02-------------------$48.16
Rocker Arm Adjusting
Screws [w/ shaft]--------------WHT-000-530------------------------0------------$4.32--------------------$0.00
Cam Shaft Seal - sprocket
end [w/ TB kit]------------------068-103-085-E-----------------------1------------$0.00
Tandem Pump Seal-----------038-145-215--------------------------1-----------$11.25------------------$11.25

Cam Tool - Holder-------------Matra T10051-------------------------1-----------$74.50-----------------$74.50
Cam Tool - Sprocket
Puller-------------------------------Matra T10052-------------------------1-----------$89.95----------------$89.95



TOTAL---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------$2,063.20







7/6/8 - UPDATE -


Some followers are in fine shape, others not so good, this was the worst one.



On the bearings, just the lower halves have notable wear. Work is done, and car is running well. :D Thanks to TDIClub members.



7/5/8 - UPDATE - Almost done replacing camshaft and related parts. Two followers were badly worn, one with cracks and a small hole. :eek: These cam lobes are heavily worn too.

As to the groove on the injector lobe for cylinder #2, it is from the follower and its lobe having worn enough that the follower was hitting the injector lobe.


Does anyone have any thoughts of how the groove got into the injector lobe of cylinder #2? This on my '04 Golf PD TDI, with 247,000 miles. Found this as I was going to change the injectors. But now need to think about if other work should be done also? Have always used 505.01 oil and OEM oil filters.

It is only about 1/4 of the way around the lobe. The rocker arm roller has just the thin line all around it, no wider marks.

And how likely this is to grow?



Cylinder #2 intake lobe - left / injector lobe with groove – center / exhaust lobe – right. Horizontal lines on injector lobe are reflection of spring on injector.



One side of rocker arm roller, cylinder #2.



Other side of rocker arm roller, cylinder #2.



Note intake lobe wear, on cylinder #2.
 
Last edited:

andreigbs

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Sep 27, 2004
Location
Walworth Co., Wisconsin
TDI
N/A
First of all, let me thank you for giving me some hope that my PD *can* most likely reach at least 240K miles.

Secondly, I suggest you find DB's price list of parts needed to replace cam, lifters and other worn valvetrain parts. I think the parts list totaled a couple grand, give or take. Installation will be the next expense; only a guru with LOTS of experience should do this for you. Then keep on trucking...

OR

Sell the car and buy another if you feel $5K is too much to pay (possibly) to have it fixed. How does the engine run? What kind of mileage is it returning? How's the power and/or smoke? Startup situation? How's the suspension, paint, and interior (seats?) holding up? If all is well, $4-$5K isn't as bad as a new car payment.

Your pictures just make me want to rip off my valve cover and have a look myself, but I'm trying to help it.
 

wjdell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2006
Location
Central Florida
TDI
06 Jetta TDI DSG PKG 1 17" VV Campy White/Beige
looks as though they were to hot. Any UOA's do you have a journal for the oil and filters. You can feel thats a groove and its not a ridge.

miles - types of 505.01
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
First, can you feel that groove?

Second, did the oil "meet or exceed" the 505.01 or was it "certified" 505.01?

Honestly, I don't think the oil caused this, but I would like to know the oil used.

Third, DBWs list is a worst case scenario.
 

Mach1

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
Location
Spicewood, Tx.
TDI
05.5 Jetta 5 spd, 06 Jetta DE DSG, 04 F250 6L, 2000 F250 7.3L
That is not bad wear for 240000 miles, looks like something got in between and grooved it, that could almost be ok. I would start sampling oil, regularly. There may be some regrind places that may be able to do one lobe..I dont know if that will cause a catistrophic failure, so i would start monitoring it through oA.
 

mctdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Location
se WI
TDI
2010 Jetta
Revolutionary_mind said:
Out of curiousity, why are you changing the injectors? Thats a lot of miles for a PD! Has there been any other PD related problems with the car?
Nozzles do not last forever, and many have posted that they should be changed about every 100,000 mile. So I am late on that one.

No other issues with engine or trany.
 

mctdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Location
se WI
TDI
2010 Jetta
andreigbs said:
First of all, let me thank you for giving me some hope that my PD *can* most likely reach at least 240K miles.

Sell the car and buy another if you feel $5K is too much to pay (possibly) to have it fixed. How does the engine run? What kind of mileage is it returning? How's the power and/or smoke? Startup situation? How's the suspension, paint, and interior (seats?) holding up? If all is well, $4-$5K isn't as bad as a new car payment.

Your pictures just make me want to rip off my valve cover and have a look myself, but I'm trying to help it.
This brings to question what a total rebuild of a PD would cost.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Location
Chicagoland
TDI
2004 golf
I always thought the PD injectors may have played by different rules since they were a different design, but are you noticing any performance or economy losses?
 

mctdi

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Dec 10, 2004
Location
se WI
TDI
2010 Jetta
Bob_Fout said:
Was the car ever serviced at the dealer...?
For the first oil change, where they tried to cut the plug's washer off to replace the washer. The side cutter was not able to cut the washer off, so they reused the plug with a groove on each side of the washer. This set up leaked, so two days later I had to change the plug and oil to fix.

Two recalls, the leaky fuel pump on the back of the cam shaft, and heated seat wiring recall.

And to do trouble shooting on a ECU wiring issue.
 

mctdi

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Location
se WI
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2010 Jetta
wjdell said:
looks as though they were to hot. Any UOA's do you have a journal for the oil and filters. You can feel thats a groove and its not a ridge.

miles - types of 505.01
No UOA.

Oil filters from dealer. Most oil from dealer - 505.01, some Amsoil European 5W-40 / 505.01. Oil & filter changes after first ones, every 10,000 miles +/- 200 miles.

Yes it is a groove, as one's finger nail will drop into it. A ridge should have made a mark on the roller the same width.
 

sdk131

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Joined
May 19, 2004
Location
Calvert County, MD
TDI
2004 Jetta GL RC1+
mctdi said:
No UOA.

....... some Amsoil European 5W-40 / 505.01. ........
Uh oh, here we go....I'm sure the Amsoil flame wars are about to begin. I'm following this with great interest (the issue itself, not the impending Amsoil comments) as my 2004 only has 1/4 of those miles...but I'm certainly hoping to reach that mark.
 

mctdi

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Location
se WI
TDI
2010 Jetta
Revolutionary_mind said:
I always thought the PD injectors may have played by different rules since they were a different design, but are you noticing any performance or economy losses?
I have not see anything solid on nozzle life, just a few posts that point to 100,000 mile life for PD and pre-PD.

As to economy, use to get 44-45 MPG, now 42-43 MPG. Yes I know a tiny change. But also, get a sour smelling exhaust. Maybe a bad cat.
 

whitedog

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Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
At $600-$800 each for nozzles, it would not be cost effective to replace them every 100,000 miles. Throw in the timing belt and dealer doing the work and that would be $5000 every 100,000 miles. These PD injectors should be good for the life of the engine or until you upgrade for power and not need periodic changing.
 
Joined
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Location
Chicagoland
TDI
2004 golf
mctdi said:
I have not see anything solid on nozzle life, just a few posts that point to 100,000 mile life for PD and pre-PD.

As to economy, use to get 44-45 MPG, now 42-43 MPG. Yes I know a tiny change. But also, get a sour smelling exhaust. Maybe a bad cat.
What are you replacing them with, stock PD nozzles or an upgrade? I guess you gotta figure they wear out, too.
 

mctdi

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Location
se WI
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2010 Jetta
whitedog said:
At $600-$800 each for nozzles, it would not be cost effective to replace them every 100,000 miles. Throw in the timing belt and dealer doing the work and that would be $5000 every 100,000 miles. These PD injectors should be good for the life of the engine or until you upgrade for power and not need periodic changing.
Well it is about $800.00 for the injector unit from the dealer. I had bought a set of injector units from Kerma, on sale. The nozzles on PD injector units can be changed, if one has the needed special tool(s).

So if PD nozzles can last well over 100,000 miles, and run at higher pressures then pre-PDs, why do others say that nozzles should be changed about 100,000 miles. And with PD nozzle / injector units one can not just remove and do a pop test to see if they are OK.

I do agree with you, whitedog, as to being not cost effective as stated above. For me doing the work myself, the labor is much less. And back when VW stated to do timing belts at 40,000 / 60,000 miles would not be cost effective at the dealer rates for me at 65,000-70,000 miles per year. Some of VW's view on cost of owning a VW is not cost effective.
 

mctdi

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Location
se WI
TDI
2010 Jetta
Revolutionary_mind said:
What are you replacing them with, stock PD nozzles or an upgrade? I guess you gotta figure they wear out, too.
I was going with PD-150 units. But things are on hold unit I think this through.
 

supton

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Joined
May 25, 2004
Location
Central NH (USA)
TDI
'04 Jetta Wagon GLS
Out of curiosity: what if you just leave it alone? See how fast it wears down? Or if it is even wearing at all? Maybe whatever caused that groove is long gone, or perhaps (hopefully it wasn't) it was always there--one of those cams that got ground after the world soccer championship.

I mean, if it's not wearing too fast, all it will do is put really fine metal into the oil, which a few UOA's would show, right? I don't think that would cause accelerated wear elsewhere in the motor, no?

I hope the nozzles are lifetime!
 

tditom

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Location
san antonio & austin
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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
The cam lobe wear is more concerning to me. It looks as if all of the plating is nearly worn through. UOA should be interesting.
 
Joined
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Location
Chicagoland
TDI
2004 golf
Perhaps wait for some take offs from a lower mileage car, when they upgrade? Ive seen stock used and PD150's decently cheap come and go. I might try some PD150's one day if someone is selling used ones cheap. These injectors can be very pricey to replace, and you may not recoup the money with the little mileage you may or may not gain.

Your lower economy could be a number of other things, too.
 

Dimitri16V

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Location
DE
TDI
01 Golf, 04 Golf
check the lifters and cam lobes more careful. you have more wear than a scarred injector cam lobe. It's kind of hard to attribute the groove to the oil, seems like something was caught in there as Mach1 said.

BTW, anybody know of a redesigned valve cover for the PDs ? also how come the PDs oil pressure is lower than the ALH ? It only makes sense to have higher flow pump when the engine has too many rotating parts up top.
 

d2305

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Tell amsoil you need a new valve train. I hope I didn't ruin mine as I used it for 10K miles.
 

tditom

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san antonio & austin
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formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
d2305 said:
Tell amsoil you need a new valve train. I hope I didn't ruin mine as I used it for 10K miles.
I dunno about that...
mctdi said:
Most oil from dealer - 505.01, some Amsoil European 5W-40 / 505.01. Oil & filter changes after first ones, every 10,000 miles +/- 200 miles
mc- exactly how many miles on which oil?
 

mctdi

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Location
se WI
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2010 Jetta
About 40,000 miles with Amsoil and/or mix with Amsoil, of 247,000 total miles.

Cam lobe wear at 247,000 miles is heard of. Still not wanted.:eek:

If one looks at picture #4 the intake lobe of cylinder #2 shows wear, and not posted, so does the intake lobe of cylinder #4. The camshaft does need to be replaced. No question there. My question is about the groove in cylinder #2 injector lobe with out leaving as wide a mark in the rocker arm roller? Was it there when the engine was built?:confused:
 

Dimitri16V

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Revolutionary_mind said:
Could be higher flow, which could related to a lower pressure reading, if they had larger passages, etc.

Just a guess
isn't the pump the same as the ALH ? somebody with ETKa needs to chime in
 

whitedog

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Dimitri16V said:
isn't the pump the same as the ALH ? somebody with ETKa needs to chime in
The oil pump could be the same, but if the oil passages and clearances are greater in the PD, then that would give lower oil pressure. (Remeber pumps only create flow. Resistance to flow creates pressure)
 

PDJetta

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supton said:
Out of curiosity: what if you just leave it alone? See how fast it wears down? Or if it is even wearing at all? Maybe whatever caused that groove is long gone, or perhaps (hopefully it wasn't) it was always there--one of those cams that got ground after the world soccer championship.

I mean, if it's not wearing too fast, all it will do is put really fine metal into the oil, which a few UOA's would show, right? I don't think that would cause accelerated wear elsewhere in the motor, no?

I hope the nozzles are lifetime!
That's my vote. Just leave it alone for now and peek under the valve cover periodically.

--Nate
 

jasonTDI

TDI GURU Vendor , w/Business number
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12' RAM 2500 QC,LB. 2019 Cherokee 2.0T
The cat is going if you smell what you're smelling. I know you'll keep the car for another 250 so I'd just replace the nozzels with Kermas. But the cam and other stuff.....do you run with it or not...tough choice.

It wasn't the amsoil....christ.....If it was there'd be plenty of others with failures....
 
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