Cam ? on '04 PD 247,000 miles

[mctdi]

All of this discussion got me thinking about my cam and lifters and what is involved in replacing them, so I read the camshaft removal procedure in my Bentley (CD version) Manual. It does not appear too difficult and it appears that you may not need the counter hold tool and the hub puller special tools (anyone here do this job without them?)

But I did notice that there is NO MENTION in Bentley of the need to replace the bolts holding down the injector rockers, nor is there mention of replacing the nuts or bolts (not sure which are used, there is no depiction of the camshaft cap fasteners) holding down the camshaft beraring caps. Bentley lists for both of these fastners a certain tightening torque, PLUS a quarter turn. I thought this meant that they were "torque to yield" and that they should ALWAYS be replaced.

Next, I looked in the section on replacing the unit injectors in my Bentley and for the injector rockers, it said to ALWAYS REPLACE the rocker bolts.

The above illustrates inconsistiences I have observed in the Bentley manual. Obviously, you are supposed to replace the injector rocker bolts each time, but in the section on removing the camshaft, the need to replace the injector rocker bolts IS NOT mentioned. I am still wondering if the cam bearing cap fasteners have to be replaced.

Obviously there appears to be a problem with the PDs burning out cams and lifters WITH the correct oil used, but how prevelant are the failures. I am wondering if it is just a small percentage, and the majority of us will be OK.

--Nate

As to the tools, one should be able to get by without the special tools. But they do make the job a lot easier to do.

I did not get the camshaft seal tool. In trying to put the shaft seal in, I ruined one. And after 45 min. I lucked out in finding a heavy cardboard tube almost the perfect ID, cut a piece about 1" long and with the sprocket bolt and washer pushed the seal into place. With the special tool this would have been two min. and good to go with the first seal.

On the bolts the Bentley is not very clear. What a bite. So to be on the safe side I replaced all bolts not stated as reusable.

 

[PDJetta]

On second thought, if I spend $2,000 on parts, another $125 - $150 on these two tools is not a big deal. I like the looks of the cam counterhold. I could imagine trying to hold the cam without it, while torquing the cam bolt down, only to have the cam slip and bend some valves as they are shoved into the piston(s)! What's the saying...Penny wise and pound foolish.

--Nate

 

[LessIsMore]

On second thought, if I spend $2,000 on parts, another $125 - $150 on these two tools is not a big deal. I like the looks of the cam counterhold. I could imagine trying to hold the cam without it, while torquing the cam bolt down, only to have the cam slip and bend some valves as they are shoved into the piston(s)! What's the saying...Penny wise and pound foolish.

--Nate

With or without the holding tool, it's a good idea to turn the crank back so the pistons are down in the cyl. for this step. Also, for the cam seal, you can just put it on by hand when the cam is still loose.

 

[PDJetta]

That's a great idea about turning the engine back. At TDC, two pistons should be at the top of their stroke and two should be at the bottom. To get the pistons in the middle of their stroke, how far from TDC on #1 should you rotate the crank? 90 degrees?

I know you can easily remove ad install the cam seal after the cam bearing cap at the seal end is loosened, so those seal tools are not needed.

Bentley states when installing the cam, to place it in the head so the cam lobes on cyl. #1 point "up" equally (this approximates the TDC position). After you tighten the cam bearing caps down, is it possible to rotate (by hand) the engine to TDC without the valves hitting the pistons? At TDC on #1 are all the valves closed.

--Nate

 

[whitedog]

Nate, with the crank turned back 90 degrees, all four pistons will be half way up (or down) the bore. With the cam tightened down and locked in place TDC #1 when you crank the engine back to TDC 1-4, #1 valves are closed and #4 valves are in the transition between the exhaust valve closing and the intake valve opening. #2 and 3 you don't need to worry about because the piston is down. Since the cam is locked in place, you can bring the crank up to TDC without hitting the valves.

The valves on #2 will be closed as you turn the crank back to TDC #1 since it is coming down on firing and #3 will have the intake valve open because it is coming down on intake.

Yeah... I think I have that right.

 

[jasonTDI]

Yep. YOu got it. It's a good idea to turn back 90 deg for safety. Just remember where you are at so you don't do something like turn it back the wrong way......

 

[whitedog]

Two years of Colledge and that's all I got from it.

 

[rcracer]

what's the first "sign" that something related to the cams, etc. is starting to need help?

thanks,
rc
_

 

[mctdi]

what's the first "sign" that something related to the cams, etc. is starting to need help?

thanks,
rc
_

Higher iron counts in the oil. Wear marks on the lifter tops.

I will post all the lifter pictures later, in the first post.

 

[Revolutionary_mind]

MC, at what point does the car start running bad, smoking, poor economy, etc?

 

[rcracer]

MC, at what point does the car start running bad, smoking, poor economy, etc?

+1

thanks RM

 

[jasonTDI]

You get a drop off in mileage other than the normal seasonal one. A bit of blue unburt diesel smoke at idle and at low throttle. Also there is a slight pop, pop, pop, pop noise once the lifter starts to really go.

 

[rcracer]

has VAG 'admitted' (cough!) there seems that the PD has "issues" ...

.

 

[jasonTDI]

Nope and don't expect it either.

 

[GoFaster]

They last long enough (in general) to get through the warranty period.

P.S. Don't expect any other mainstream manufacturer to have a much different attitude than this for problems that are tough or expensive to fix, and particularly for an engine/vehicle that is no longer in production.

 

[supton]

I have to wonder: if these cams are only making say 200kmiles prior to breaking (assuming proper or at least "good enough"), well, $2k is still cheaper than a new car payment. No, I wouldn't want to pay it, and I'd be steamed: but plenty of cars have had soft cams. Just not quite so expensive cams...

 

[rcracer]

so, when should start looking/listening/feeling, tell-tale signs, etc of cam failure?

 

[velociT]

so, when should start looking/listening/feeling, tell-tale signs, etc of cam failure?

As soon as you swear off M1 CJ-4 and buy more 505.01

 

[mctdi]

so, when should start looking/listening/feeling, tell-tale signs, etc of cam failure?

Before the warranty runs out, look for lifter [ follower ] wear. That is if its there, it might be covered.

UOA can help see this coming, too.

And at 80,000 miles, at TB time, and mid-next TB time, to catch things going bad. Before things are bad, repairs are of more parts, and higher total cost.

 

[rcracer]

Out of curiousity, why are you changing the injectors? Thats a lot of miles for a PD! Has there been any other PD related problems with the car?

this may seem silly to even ask:

what % of PD BEW's have had cam failure?

thanks

_

 

[LNXGUY]

this may seem silly to even ask:

what % of PD BEW's have had cam failure?

thanks

_

It was silly to ask, you'll never get a good answer.

 

[rcracer]

It was silly to ask, you'll never get a good answer.

never always, or never probably

_

 

[whitedog]

Never possible

 

[GoFaster]

It is impossible on ANY internet website to evaluate a percentage of failure for ANYthing. You will only ever hear of the failed ones, and you will never hear a thing from the non-internet-savvy people who drive the car and never had a failure.

 

[Revolutionary_mind]

We have to assume a large chunk, maybe a majority of TDIs sold in the US are owned by people who dont use TDIclub. So we will never know. Im sure there have been plenty of instances where non-car savvy folks didnt change the oil, ran the oil low, used the wrong oil, bad oil, and just brought it to the dealer, independent mechanics, or just sold it.

 

[rcracer]

It is impossible on ANY internet website to evaluate a percentage of failure for ANYthing. You will only ever hear of the failed ones, and you will never hear a thing from the non-internet-savvy people who drive the car and never had a failure.

however, the question was neither an either/or ...

how many PD BEWs , that we know of here on tdiclub, have had failed cams

thanks

_

 

[GoFaster]

Your original question asked how many percent have the failure. In order to know that, you also have to know how many have NOT had the failure ... and therein lies the problem. A lot of people who would never otherwise know about this website, show up because they are having a problem (albeit not necessarily THAT problem). It's also complicated by the fact that failures have been reported at a wide range of odometer readings.

There is a proper term for what you are looking for. For rolling-element bearings, for example, they have something called the "L10 life" - the number of revolutions at a given load at which 10% would be expected to fail, and there is a curve for the relationship between applied load and number of revolutions that represents the L10 life. If you know the applied load then you use the chart to get the estimated life. If you know what the life needs to be, you can work backwards to the maximum load that can be applied to the bearing to maintain that life.

In the case of the camshafts ... we have absolutely nowhere near enough data to even take a guess at what that would be.

 

[rcracer]

non-aristotelian

how many PD BEWs , that we know of (have been reported) here on tdiclub, have had failed cams

thank you

 

[whitedog]

No one is tracking this so if you really want that information you will need to find it yourself since it will require going through thread after thread after thread reading and reading and reading.

Sorry we can't be of more help to you.

 

[jasonTDI]

Better yet who cares......busy body.....