Best TDI for Tuning?

[ThePhilosopher]

I'd like to start by saying I've been reading through forums for a few months but this is my first post so I'm not sure if this is the right place for it.

Anyways, I plan on swapping a 2.0 TDI into my 1986 Toyota Pickup 4x4 and want to build the motor up to about 250hp before I do the swap. I do plan on buying new rods, injectors, cam, turbo, etc. when I pull the motor out for the swap and doing a full rebuild and going through EVERYTHING along with a custom tune. What engine code do y'all think would be the best for making this amount of power reliably? So far I know that the BHW can hold a lot of power but are there any CR TDI's that would be equal or better suited for what I want? I'd like to use a Banks iDash through the OBD2 port but I know that the BHW doesn't support that as it is a ISO-9141 and not a CAN BUS vehicle, which is why I'm asking this question.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Nuje]

The ALH is a simpler and more robust engine...and with supporting mods (injectors, turbo, tune), you can get it to deliver a pretty good punch.

 

[ThePhilosopher]

The ALH is a simpler and more robust engine...and with supporting mods (injectors, turbo, tune), you can get it to deliver a pretty good punch.

I know the ALH is a simpler engine but I wouldn't say that it's more robust, the BHW has a stronger block, wider crank bearings, and many parts from the BHW are used to build performance ALH engines. I know an ALH would be simpler to build but as far as I can tell the BHW would hold the power I'm looking for better. If I'm wrong anyone is welcome to correct me as I'm still just looking for answers here and I'm open to any comments, criticism or input

 

[oilhammer]

The BHW is closer to the margins of longevity as it left the factory, just remember that. In other words, it was already "tuned". It is/was the highest output SOHC PD engine. The ALH, on the other hand, was the LOWEST output 1.9L VE engine, unless you count the turbo-less SDIs.

Someone really should start looking into using the MB OM651 engine. 2.1L and in its lowest tuned form, DPF/EGR/SCR and all, makes 168hp. The higher output units left the factory at nearly 200... and the torque is amazing at about 370 at only 1600 RPM.

 

[ThePhilosopher]

The BHW is closer to the margins of longevity as it left the factory, just remember that. In other words, it was already "tuned". It is/was the highest output SOHC PD engine. The ALH, on the other hand, was the LOWEST output 1.9L VE engine, unless you count the turbo-less SDIs.

Someone really should start looking into using the MB OM651 engine. 2.1L and in its lowest tuned form, DPF/EGR/SCR and all, makes 168hp. The higher output units left the factory at nearly 200... and the torque is amazing at about 370 at only 1600 RPM.

That's true that the BHW is "tuned" from factory but there are plenty of tunes, such as the Stage 2 from Malone, that will bring the BHW clear up to 174hp 305tq without digging into the engine or modifying it at all. Granted I don't know how reliable it will be at that power as I've never looked into that, it is still far more than the ALH can make without modifications (134hp 235tq with injectors). As I've said I plan on doing a pretty thorough build before doing any sort of tuning to make more power so the reliability should be fine after I'm done with it. I'm just looking to see if there are any common rail TDI options that would be an equal or better fit for that power output. From what I've heard the CR TDI's have better tunability as far as fueling and they would be plug-and-play with the Banks iDash that I mentioned before.

As far as the OM651, that would definitely be a nice swap with minor mods to make the power I'm looking for, I know people have done OM617 swaps and the adapters to my transmission are very easy to find for that, but as far as I can tell no one sells adapters to swap a OM651 into a W56 transmission. If the OM617 and OM651 have the same bolt pattern then that wouldn't be a problem, but I don't have the resources to make my own adapter plate and I don't know anyone that does personally. If anyone could help with this then the OM651 would probably be my go-to but for now TDI swap parts are easy to find and I'm pretty dead set on sticking with them

 

[dieseldonato]

You can push an alh to around 180hp before rods become an issue, several guys running cheap max porting rods making in excess of that with little complaints. Seems the hybrid engine would be the best bet over all imo for longevity. I believe you can sruff all the bhw bottom end parts into an alh block though. (Correct me if I'm wrong) The injection pump is more then capable of fueling more then 250hp, cheaper and easier to service then the pump duce engines. No real worries about premature cam wear on an alh either. Plenty of build threads on this forum I'd you take the time to dig them up.

 

[03Golfer]

Just a side note, personally I would go with an R150 if you're planning on making big torque. I regret my decision to stick with the W56 as changing now will be a pain.

 

[turbobrick240]

You can make 250 hp on a CJAA with factory rods, head bolts, pistons, and head configuration. You'd want an all aluminum intercooler, turbo and injector upgrade. Probably a CP3 hpfp also. And good tuning of course.

 

[ThePhilosopher]

You can push an alh to around 180hp before rods become an issue, several guys running cheap max porting rods making in excess of that with little complaints. Seems the hybrid engine would be the best bet over all imo for longevity. I b
elieve you can sruff all the bhw bottom end parts into an alh block though. (Correct me if I'm wrong) The injection pump is more then capable of fueling more then 250hp, cheaper and easier to service then the pump duce engines. No real worries about premature cam wear on an alh either. Plenty of build threads on this forum I'd you take the time to dig them up.

I've looked into the hybrid ALH/BHW and the only thing putting me off is that if I remember correctly the ALH doesn't have as beefy of a bottom end as the BHW does, that and with the BHW pistons the cylinder walls would be made just that much thinner than stock. I've read through a few of the hybrid build threads and it doesn't seem all that terrible though tbh

Just a side note, personally I would go with an R150 if you're planning on making big torque. I regret my decision to stick with the W56 as changing now will be a pain.

I do plan on doing a r150 swap before I put the TDI in, I know people running stock 4 cylinder diffs with 300hp+ through them so I'm leaving those alone until I get lockers and swap them for 6 cylinder assemblies. I'm just not sure whether I want to keep the 22re bellhousing or not when I swap the tranny because doing a bellhousing adapter would push the motor forward a little bit more and hopefully I won't have any clearance issues with the firewall. I'm not worried about radiator clearance because every setup I've seen has plenty of room and I have a modified 3 core 22re radiator that sits flush with the core support to give more engine room and fit an electric fan as well

You can make 250 hp on a CJAA with factory rods, head bolts, pistons, and head configuration. You'd want an all aluminum intercooler, turbo and injector upgrade. Probably a CP3 hpfp also. And good tuning of course.

I've looked into the CJAA a little bit, I don't know a whole lot about the CR diesels but the CJAA is what I've heard the most about. How does the rigidity of it compare to that of the BHW? I plan on getting an aftermarket intercooler, injectors, turbo, etc. when I go to swap the engine into my pickup. As long as its in the VW I plan on keeping it stock and saving up to do everything at once.

 

[03Golfer]

Good plan on the R150, I would consider just going straight to the R150 adapter though and forget the $$ Advance Adapters or R151 bellhousing. Engine/trans is easy to shift forward as required. In my case, the front axle is in the way so I have it all the way into the firewall. The axle clearance issue will depend how high you want to go with lift. This would be a good topic in the conversion forum. I am running the 4 cyl diffs with Detroit true tracs, they're the last of my concerns. My swap is still in progress, so take it for what it's worth.

I can't speak to the newer diesels, but I am currently building an ALH/BHW hybrid (taking forever waiting for the machine shop...). I am doing the expensive way for what reason I'm unsure at this point. I am using the ALH block and had it machined.

The better way is probably to snag a complete BHW and put the ALH head on there. This is well documented in other threads, thanks Jimbote.

I am drawn to the ALH by it's simplicity and the fact that my daily driver golf has the same engine. I have found older engines in general to be more reliable. Again, I'm far from an expert with regards to the newer diesels, only speaking to that which I have experience with.

 

[burpod]

Good plan on the R150, I would consider just going straight to the R150 adapter though and forget the $$ Advance Adapters or R151 bellhousing. Engine/trans is easy to shift forward as required. In my case, the front axle is in the way so I have it all the way into the firewall. The axle clearance issue will depend how high you want to go with lift. This would be a good topic in the conversion forum. I am running the 4 cyl diffs with Detroit true tracs, they're the last of my concerns. My swap is still in progress, so take it for what it's worth.

I can't speak to the newer diesels, but I am currently building an ALH/BHW hybrid (taking forever waiting for the machine shop...). I am doing the expensive way for what reason I'm unsure at this point. I am using the ALH block and had it machined.

The better way is probably to snag a complete BHW and put the ALH head on there. This is well documented in other threads, thanks Jimbote.

I am drawn to the ALH by it's simplicity and the fact that my daily driver golf has the same engine. I have found older engines in general to be more reliable. Again, I'm far from an expert with regards to the newer diesels, only speaking to that which I have experience with.

i've never heard of a bhw head on an alh block... i'm not really even sure what or how that is possible or what the benefits are (appears opposite). seems like a very high cost to benefit ratio tho and the benefit is questionable. an alh done right, and a bhw, or bew done right, can be awesome. personally, i would never take the time/$$ to morph them. without much effort, all 3 engines can be bumped up quite a bit. how good it performs is really a question of the tuning, assuming no hardware blunders or things overlooked. which is from my experience, a constant probability

 

[03Golfer]

ALH head on BHW block.

 

[burpod]

maybe i'm confusing people. you just said you're having an alh block machined to fit... but you're not the OP.

I can't speak to the newer diesels, but I am currently building an ALH/BHW hybrid (taking forever waiting for the machine shop...). I am doing the expensive way for what reason I'm unsure at this point. I am using the ALH block and had it machined.

The better way is probably to snag a complete BHW and put the ALH head on there. This is well documented in other threads, thanks Jimbote.

 

[03Golfer]

BHW/ALH VE Hybrid...

Decided to post this here as it can translate to FWD cars although the engine is going in my tacoma http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=293577 ....I was going to put an ALH in the truck but as fate had it I happened upon a killer deal for a BHW shortblock so I snapped it up and had to go...

forums.tdiclub.com

ALH/BHW Hybrid: Success!

First of all shoutout to jimbote and Trevor Morris on helping me with this build! After several hours of set back we got this alh bhw hybrid going! some issues: -didn't realize there wasn't a hole for large roller had to tap and drill it -pd150 tip kit had issues with fitment had to...

forums.tdiclub.com

Links for clarity. No I'm not the OP, but we're building similar trucks. Just putting an engine option out there for discussion.

 

[burpod]

BHW/ALH VE Hybrid...

Decided to post this here as it can translate to FWD cars although the engine is going in my tacoma http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=293577 ....I was going to put an ALH in the truck but as fate had it I happened upon a killer deal for a BHW shortblock so I snapped it up and had to go...

forums.tdiclub.com

ALH/BHW Hybrid: Success!

First of all shoutout to jimbote and Trevor Morris on helping me with this build! After several hours of set back we got this alh bhw hybrid going! some issues: -didn't realize there wasn't a hole for large roller had to tap and drill it -pd150 tip kit had issues with fitment had to...

forums.tdiclub.com

Links for clarity. No I'm not the OP, but we're building similar trucks. Just putting an engine option out there for discussion.

right, i'm aware of bhw bottom end with alh.. i have tuned ecala01's car. there are still some things to resolve. but i have not heard of bhw head on alh

 

[03Golfer]

Right, and nobody mentioned a BHW head on an ALH. I'm having my ALH machined for the 2.0 pistons and using BHW rotating assembly, and ALH head. But the cheaper way is to just use the BHW block. Also, sent you a PM a few days ago

 

[burpod]

I can't speak to the newer diesels, but I am currently building an ALH/BHW hybrid (taking forever waiting for the machine shop...). I am doing the expensive way for what reason I'm unsure at this point. I am using the ALH block and had it machined.

i guess i'm misreading a typo, but you did? that's where my confusion lies. i did get your PM, and think i responded.. i'm scatter-brained myself...

 

[03Golfer]

I'm having the ALH machined for BHW rotating assy, and using ALH head. That's what the OP had alluded to in post #9. I am just suggesting using the BHW block to save costs, instead of paying for extra machine work as I did (long story, machine shop was supposed to use torque plate with ARP head studs and didn't...)

 

[burpod]

I'm having the ALH machined for BHW rotating assy, and using ALH head. That's what the OP had alluded to in post #9. I am just suggesting using the BHW block to save costs, instead of paying for extra machine work as I did (long story, machine shop was supposed to use torque plate with ARP head studs and didn't...)

ahhhh ok. that seems like way too much effort to me, for my own circumstances. the most i'm capable (money/time) and caring to do is a .5 overbore if the block needs it, stronger rods + asv pistons. beyond that IMO the bang-buck decreases rapidly... and my available buck for that is fairly small lol

 

[ThePhilosopher]

Good plan on the R150, I would consider just going straight to the R150 adapter though and forget the $$ Advance Adapters or R151 bellhousing. Engine/trans is easy to shift forward as required. In my case, the front axle is in the way so I have it all the way into the firewall. The axle clearance issue will depend how high you want to go with lift. This would be a good topic in the conversion forum. I am running the 4 cyl diffs with Detroit true tracs, they're the last of my concerns. My swap is still in progress, so take it for what it's worth.

I can't speak to the newer diesels, but I am currently building an ALH/BHW hybrid (taking forever waiting for the machine shop...). I am doing the expensive way for what reason I'm unsure at this point. I am using the ALH block and had it machined.

The better way is probably to snag a complete BHW and put the ALH head on there. This is well documented in other threads, thanks Jimbote.

I am drawn to the ALH by it's simplicity and the fact that my daily driver golf has the same engine. I have found older engines in general to be more reliable. Again, I'm far from an expert with regards to the newer diesels, only speaking to that which I have experience with.

I plan on leaving the trans in its place, with an R150 the shifter assembly is already moved 3" forward from the W56 and almost hits the floorboard at the base of it so I don't want to deal with that. The adapters for the w56 bellhousing to R150 are easy to find and to me would be worth the money to not have to move the transmission mounting place backwards or forwards. anywaysss
I've heard that the ALH head/BHW block is a good combo too, I'm not sure how the flow compares between the two but I'd say its worth looking into personally. I think I would rather do a straight BHW build over a hybrid just to save myself a little bit of time and money in that aspect.

i've never heard of a bhw head on an alh block... i'm not really even sure what or how that is possible or what the benefits are (appears opposite). seems like a very high cost to benefit ratio tho and the benefit is questionable. an alh done right, and a bhw, or bew done right, can be awesome. personally, i would never take the time/$$ to morph them. without much effort, all 3 engines can be bumped up quite a bit. how good it performs is really a question of the tuning, assuming no hardware blunders or things overlooked. which is from my experience, a constant probability

As far as tuning I'm deciding on whether I should attempt to tune the engine myself or find a company/someone on the forums to do it. I would love to start getting into tuning but that all seems daunting to me currently, I'm still a long ways away from that though and plan on looking into it before I make any decision.

As far as hardware I plan on going as all-out as my budget allows u to the 250hp point. Full rebuild, cam, con rods, pistons, bearings, turbo, intercooler, possibly porting the head and the works. I'm not sure what turbo I'm going with currently, I've been looking into a lot of different compressor maps of more modern turbos like the Garrett GBC20-300 but I'm not sure how well that would work as it isn't a variable geometry turbo. I've tried looking around and couldn't find anything in the forums but if y'all could help me out there that would be great. If I end up not going that route I would grab a GTB2056VK and call it a day since they're already proven to work great for my power goals.

 

[shakescreek]

"The BHW is closer to the margins of longevity as it left the factory, just remember that. In other words, it was already "tuned". It is/was the highest output SOHC PD engine"

Not quite accurate, The bhw was only the highest output sohc pd engine sold in north america. Europe got several with higher outputs, arl(pd150), bpx and buk(pd160's). I think the bhw still has a fair bit of headroom without sacrificing a lot on reliability. Boats work engines far harder than any car does as they need much higher power levels on a continuous basis. The bpx in my jetboat is tuned to about 230hp and it gets run regularly at about 125hp output for hours at a time. I have over 2600 hours on it now with no issues and still going strong.

 

[turbobrick240]

I've looked into the CJAA a little bit, I don't know a whole lot about the CR diesels but the CJAA is what I've heard the most about. How does the rigidity of it compare to that of the BHW? I plan on getting an aftermarket intercooler, injectors, turbo, etc. when I go to swap the engine into my pickup. As long as its in the VW I plan on keeping it stock and saving up to do everything at once.

I'd say the CJAA block is similar to slightly more rigid than the BHW. Here's a guy dynoing a stock CJAA with CP3, big turbo, and intercooler upgrade only and making 230 WHP. He's got a bunch of other vids too.

 

[MrCypherr]

CJAA blocks are a good platform to make some power and not worry. Anything past aorund the 250hp mark is when the head starts not following properly from what I've read/seen. Now if you really want to get into it, you can get a CR180 head and use that and push past that barrier, especally with a bigger turbo.

 

[Dalon]

CUAA is basically at 250hp stock

 

[dieseldonato]

I plan on leaving the trans in its place, with an R150 the shifter assembly is already moved 3" forward from the W56 and almost hits the floorboard at the base of it so I don't want to deal with that. The adapters for the w56 bellhousing to R150 are easy to find and to me would be worth the money to not have to move the transmission mounting place backwards or forwards. anywaysss
I've heard that the ALH head/BHW block is a good combo too, I'm not sure how the flow compares between the two but I'd say its worth looking into personally. I think I would rather do a straight BHW build over a hybrid just to save myself a little bit of time and money in that aspect.


As far as tuning I'm deciding on whether I should attempt to tune the engine myself or find a company/someone on the forums to do it. I would love to start getting into tuning but that all seems daunting to me currently, I'm still a long ways away from that though and plan on looking into it before I make any decision.

As far as hardware I plan on going as all-out as my budget allows u to the 250hp point. Full rebuild, cam, con rods, pistons, bearings, turbo, intercooler, possibly porting the head and the works. I'm not sure what turbo I'm going with currently, I've been looking into a lot of different compressor maps of more modern turbos like the Garrett GBC20-300 but I'm not sure how well that would work as it isn't a variable geometry turbo. I've tried looking around and couldn't find anything in the forums but if y'all could help me out there that would be great. If I end up not going that route I would grab a GTB2056VK and call it a day since they're already proven to work great for my power goals.

Look at the gtd2060vk.

 

[KERMA]

IMO: CJAA

 

[MrCypherr]

CUAA is basically at 250hp stock

Which we dont get in North America, so if you plan on importing an engine, youll also need the harness, ECU and most likely a couple other things so it would be stupid to not just build a CJAA.

 

[Dalon]

Which we dont get in North America, so if you plan on importing an engine, youll also need the harness, ECU and most likely a couple other things so it would be stupid to not just build a CJAA.

Respectfully, disagree. Maybe Adam can chime in here but I'm sure the amount saved on parts that the CUAA comes stock with and it's ceiling for power, you'd save money even with the import fees.

Edit: CJAA is definitely cheaper on paper I would agree, but CUAA makes sense strictly from a power standpoint imo.

 

[MrCypherr]

Does anyone in NA touch those engines? I know of one person here that has done it.

 

[Dalon]

Does anyone in NA touch those engines? I know of one person here that has done it.

In terms of modding or tuning? Adam is the only person I know of who has done the swap