5w30? 5w40?

[dieseldorf]

There is a general expectation that xW30 oil would offer 2 - 4% better fuel ecomony compared to a xW40 oil. However, can we really measure that from tank to tank?

 

[Xavior]

Excellent read on the topic guys, but i still find myself torn on what is ideal to use. Been using Castrol 5W40 since the first day of buying the car even after the warranty has expired. But i mean if i can get better protection and better mpg im always looking for alternatives. I understand that w30 oil would provide better protection hypothetically at startup because its lighter and it can be moved easier under colder temperatures. But, that doesnt for sure mean it does. There have been many opinions here and i find myself just stuck on the fence here..

 

[RalphVa]

Bearings on 2 cycle engines are well protected by very light oil that goes into a mist into the crankshaft. I can't see why xw30 wouldn't protect everything quite well. Heck. Used to never hear of oil much heavier than 30w in crankcases. My dad ran a service station that I worked in all during high school. People used 20w for winter and 30w for summer. Of course, cars back then were 80k mile cars. Ones today will easily go 250k miles.

 

[ruking]

Excellent read on the topic guys, but i still find myself torn on what is ideal to use. Been using Castrol 5W40 since the first day of buying the car even after the warranty has expired. But i mean if i can get better protection and better mpg im always looking for alternatives. I understand that w30 oil would provide better protection hypothetically at startup because its lighter and it can be moved easier under colder temperatures. But, that doesnt for sure mean it does. There have been many opinions here and i find myself just stuck on the fence here..

This is not to be critical, but the only way you are going to get better start up protection between a 5w30/5w40 oil is to go to a 0w30/0w40 !! ?? W refers to "WINTER", even as it is almost always referred to colloquially as WEIGHT. ZERO winter viscosity is better than (thinner) 5 winter viscosity, for example.

As alluded to by several posters, the truth is more like... "all over the place".

To give you a direct and short answer, go to the TDI UOA database, http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205814

1. stay with 5w40 BUT

2. select the BRANDS that have been UOA tested ( for the BEW engine)

3. that tends to yield the LEAST wear (there are as a min 5 brands). ELF was gobbled up by TOTAL. So these 2 become one brand.

Don't trust it or want to see specifically in your case? Run your own UOA tests !!

I think the most important things are: what goals and methodology do you wish to follow and/or experiment with ??

So for example, 5w30 is ONE thing (of many) thing that defines the VW 507.00 specification. It is CERTIFIED (the specification) to be back ward compatible with past VW oil specifications. Anecdotal evidence (UOA's) on this website thread "TDI UOA DATABASE," however seems to indicate that VW specifications oils and specifically 5w30 oils are not as "protective" as NON VW specification oils (aka API, etc and on the order of API being 2x better !! ) and 5w40 viscosity. I am sure you can see/imagine or project the dilemmas here !!??

Lastly, While it does not "hurt" anything to switch oils and brands etc. and actually harms the engine(statistically proven) it would be hard to attribute anything (longer term) to any one brand and viscosity etc. if you kept switching. (brands, viscosities, etc)

 

[GoFaster]

Two-stroke engines don't have heavily loaded cam-followers and don't rely on hydrodynamic lubrication. Rolling-element bearings typical in two-stroke bottom ends do well with light oil-mist lubrication. You cannot really compare that with hydrodynamic lubrication in a 4-stroke engine, and not all 4-stroke engines are built alike. Engines that have rolling-element cam followers (like 2009+ VW commonrail) have important differences in their lubrication requirements from those that have flat-tappet lifters (all prior VW diesels, and for that matter, the gasoline engines also) and the heavily-loaded flat-tappets in the P-D due to the narrow cam lobes introduce another situation to deal with. It's important not to make too many generalizations here. What works in one situation doesn't necessarily work in all.

 

[Dimitri16V]

I was reading today that back in mid 2000's the big players who made flat tappets went out of business and the void was filled with cheaper parts. Oil formulation changes are also suggested but IMO it's probably a combination of the two. Sounds like a tough spot.

Maybe that's cause?
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

thats only the US market . German cars use INA made lifters

Most people agree it's the lack of ZDDP that kills flat tappet engines.

Wonder why all small motor oil companies offer oils or additives for classic or older cars? those oils are loaded with ZDDP .

Nobody knows how low the ZDDP levels can be and still protect the cam/lifters. Maybe this is reason that M-1 TDT has been so good , it has the lower level of ZDDP but also adds some boron compounds. Some M-1 flavors still have moly. Mobil has 15W-50 specified for flat tappet engines which has around 1200 ppm ZDDP
Now check all the 505.01 oils , they only have low ZDDP and nothing else to back it up. An only emmisions equipment saver . Sure it will take you past 70K which coincidentally it's the federally mandated warranty for emmisions and then you are on your own.
there is one member here with a new PD engine , hopefully he will keep it long enough to see how it performs without ever having a drop of 505.01 oil in it

 

[Sloppy Snood]

First, let me say that I am not even in the same league as you gentlemen on your knowledge of oils and their use within specific VW diesel motors.

My 2005 VW Passat GLS is a BHW engine and possesses the issues GoFaster has spoken to. For my situation, I am curious about a couple of things.

BHW engine repair: having sunk $6700 into my BHW engine after my oil pump balance shaft chain failure and having a brand new BHW camshaft, flat tappet lifters, valves, and bearing shells, I have high interest in protecting these parts. 5W-40 is the route I am choosing and Mobil1 Turbo Diesel Truck is the brand I have chosen.

From what I have read on these forums, there seems to be very little difference in achieving proper oil flow to the most remote locations in the engine (at cold start start-up) when comparing between a 0W-XX to a 5W-30 or 5W-40 oil (I have little concern for VW 505.01 specifications after looking at a bunch of the BHW engine UOAs post in the sticky). Maybe I am incorrect but this is my current interpretation.

Having said that, I am confident that if I use a non-VW spec. oil with added ZDDP content, any emissions system "repair" caused by the ZDDP will pale in comparison to the cost of parts in the BHW motor (seriously, ask me; dann near everything has been replaced in this motor ). My '05 Passat has no diesel particulate filter (DPF) so I am not concerned about what is not physically "there" being damaged. Impex lists a brand new catalytic converter for my BHW engine to cost $522.50 (retail $605.00 U.S. dollars)......

...so, for less than the cost of a $755.25 (Impex) BHW camshaft alone (not to mention the associated flat-tappet lifters, valves, bearing shells), if increased ZDDP protects my BHW engine parts better but at the same time "destroys" my catalytic converter (it won't ), I will gladly take a $522.50 part that I can install myself over a major engine repair bill again. Just my thoughts.

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

.....But i mean if i can get better protection and better mpg im always looking for alternatives. I understand that w30 oil would provide better protection hypothetically at startup because its lighter and it can be moved easier under colder temperatures...

In a multigrade oil, a 5W-40 and a 5W-30 oils are theoretically have the same cold temp protection, since they're both a 5W grade viscosity oils. The W stands for Winter. However, 40 weight grade oil has better high temp protection than the 30 weight grade oil.

If you are looking for a better oil to replace the 505.01 oil you should switch to M1 ESP FM 5W-40. I have a great UOA results using this oil in my PD BHW

 

[TornadoRed]

Good discussion from all participants. Just want to point out that several of the 5w30 oils mentioned here are "thick" 30-weight oils and are nearly as viscous as a 40-weight. In particular I'm thinking of the common 507.00-spec oils from Castrol, Total, and Mobil. These are not as thin as a couple 0w30 oils which were popular here a few years ago.

 

[raybo]

The Mobil1 ESP 5w30 is the closest to 5w40 of all the 507.00 oils. Thicker than other 507.00 oils, it also meets MB 229.51 and is almost as thick as the ESP 5w40 Formula M.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/Mobil/mobil-1-esp-formula-5w-30.pdf

Ray

 

[Sloppy Snood]

So....are we to the point where a "minimum viscosity" value can be surmised for the PD camshafts (BHW or otherwise)?

Maybe a "5W-35" class of oils?

 

[Bob_Fout]

Our oils must have a minimum HTHS of 3.5 isn't it? Or is it 3.7?

 

[Dimitri16V]

So....are we to the point where a "minimum viscosity" value can be surmised for the PD camshafts (BHW or otherwise)?

Maybe a "5W-35" class of oils?

Snood, the PD cam/lifter failure is becoming a wild goose chase.

First , people blamed failure on the usage of non 505.01 oils, then when the engines with the correct oil die started dying , they started blaming the viscosity. Incidentally , they all derived their theory about 5W-40 being better than 5W-30 by looking at mainly M-1 TDT UOAs.
The funny thing is those same "experts" here blamed Syntec 505.00 5W-40 for trashing the camshafts few years ago even though it is 5W-40

IMO, the engine design is to blame along with use of the weak 505.01 oils.
Personally, I have used many kind of oils in my PD since I don't buy the 505.01 hype since the car hit the 100K mile mark. Next oil to experiment with will be M-1 15W-50 with ZDDP additive in summertime.

If I had a new PD engine in my car , I would go with M-1 TDT 5W-40 and something thicker in summer maybe 15W-50 .
ZDDP additive would be a must. Now if you can find M-1 5W-50 , that would be the perfect year round oil for a PD , if not for any VW

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

The Mobil1 ESP 5w30 is the closest to 5w40 of all the 507.00 oils. Thicker than other 507.00 oils, it also meets MB 229.51 and is almost as thick as the ESP 5w40 Formula M.
Ray

UOA results M1 ESP 5W-30 vs M1 ESP FM 5W-40

Engine Type: BHW
Miles on unit: 138060
Miles on oil: 10364
Oil: Mobil 1 ESP formula 5W-30 507.00

Wear Metals:
Fe: 36
Cr: 1
Ni: 2
Al: 6
Cu: 3
Pb: 4
Sn: 0
Cd: 0
Ag: 0
V: 0
Contaminant Metals:
Si: 3
Na: 4
K: 4
Multi-Source Metals:
Ti: 0
Mo: 81
Sb: 0
Mn: 0
Li: 0
B: 99
Additive Metals:
Mg: 9
Ca: 1519
Ba: 0
P: 896
Zn: 1062

Fuel: 0.4%
Soot: 0.3%
Water: <0.1
Vis @ 100C: 12.6
TBN: 2.88

TDI POWER
Engine Type: BHW
Miles on unit: 107000
Miles on oil: 10000
Oil: Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 MB229.51

Wear Metals:
Fe: 38
Cr: 0
Ni: 4
Al: 5
Cu: 1
Pb: 1
Sn: 0
Cd: 0
Ag: 0
V: 0
Contaminant Metals:
Si: 3
Na: 2
K: 1
Multi-Source Metals:
Ti: 0
Mo: 68
Sb: 0
Mn: 0
Li: 0
B: 110
Additive Metals:
Mg: 24
Ca: 1184
Ba: 0
P: 699
Zn: 800

Fuel: <0.1%
Soot: 0.2%
Water: <0.1
Vis @ 100C: 13.4
TBN: 4.54
I-R Oxidation: 11
I-R Nitrate: 18

A

Jetta TDI 2006- 50K UOA

Wanted to post my numbers, as I was worried about a few numbers:
Aluminum: 12
Chromium: 2
Iron: 47
Copper 6
Lead 3
Tin 1
Molybdenum 87
Nickel 2
Manganese 1
Siliver 0
titanium 0
Potassium 18
Boron 97
Silicon 5
Sodum 5
Calcium 1194
Magnesium
Phosphorus 779
Zinc: 1032
Barium 0
SUS 66.1
cSt Viscosity: 11.92
Flashpoint in F 415
Fuel TR
Antifreeze 0.0
Water 0.0
Insoluble .2

Their summary was: Wear was generally above avg, in the first sample from your Jetta. Aluminum and Iron were high enough to show mild piston scuffing, though nothing read high enough to warrant serious alarm. Universal avgs for the VW 1.9 are based on an oil run for ~8K. Your longer oil run likely contributed to the above avg, but we don't think that the oil was run too long. The trace of fuel isn't a problem, and no other harmful contaminatns were found. The viscosity of the oil read in the 10w/40 range.

The other number that they didn't comment on were Molybdenum, Boron....Any think I should be worried, or change something. I'm thinking that I need to go to 8K changes. Since I have been putting in Mobil 1 ESP 5w30, I thought I was safe going with the 10K service recommendation of VW.

VS non PD

Year:2002 TDI
Mileage:103,520
Oil Mileage: 7,832
Oil: 5w-30 ESP Mobil 1 507
Fuel: #2 Diesel diet varies with brands and sources.
Additives: Stanadyne Performance Formula; every tank 8oz. for the past 12 or so fill-ups.
Used Power Service once (white bottle) prior to Stanadyne.
Additional Info: Did not sample the previous oil when drained. Vehicle was purchased with previous oil.
Lab Comments: Compartment wear is normal. No problems indicated at this time. Continue sampling at normal interval.

Copper 3
Iron 43
Chromium 2
Aluminum 4
Lead 3
Tin 0
Molybdenum 87
Silicon 0
Sodium 10
Potassium 1
Calcium 1693
Magnesium 12
Zinc 1151
Boron 147
Phosphorus 1087
Silver 2
Barium 0
Nickel 1
Cadmium 0
Titanium 0
Vanadium 0
Manganese 0
Soot 55
Oxidation 8
Sulphur-product 0
Water NEG
Fuel Dilution NEG
Antifreeze NEG
Viscosity 13.3

Rev A: SPFrancis UOA added

 

[Dimitri16V]

Date: 12/23/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 6,400
Miles/unit: 187,000
Oil Type: German Castrol 0W-30 505.00 , SL

Fe Iron: 24
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 6
Cu Copper: 1
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 258
Nickel : 0
P: 1257
Zinc: 1370
Boron:10
Calcium:3809

Additive : MoS2 , ZDDP


Visc @ 100C : 13.11
Soot : 0.4 %
Fuel : <0.5 %

Date: 10/15/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 180,000
Oil Type: M-1 TDT 5W-40 CI-4+

Fe Iron: 33
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 6
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 1
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 227
Nickel : 1
P: 1226
Zinc: 1465

Additive : MoS2


Visc @ 100C : 15.81
Soot : 0.3 %
Fuel : <0.5 %

Date: 06/16/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 170,000
Oil Type: M-1 TDT 5W-40 CI-4+

Fe Iron: 20
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 7
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 147

Additive : MoS2


Visc @ 100C : 15.25
Soot : 0.3 %
Fuel : 2.5 % ( had a misfiring injector )

Date: 03/11/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 9,000
Miles/unit: 160,000
Oil Type: ELF EVO 0W-30

Fe Iron: 24
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 5
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 1
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 202

Additive : MoS2


Visc @ 100C : 10.68
Soot : 0.3 %


Date: 12/11/2008
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,500
Miles/unit: 151,000
Oil Type: Mobil-1 TDT 5W 40 CI-4
Fe Iron: 31
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 5
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 1
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 64

Visc @ 100C : 15.28 , slightly on the high side
Soot : 0.4 %


Date: 8/29/2008
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 141,000
Oil Type: Mobil-1 TDT 5W 40
Fe Iron: 33
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 5
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 352

LM MoS2 additive used

Soot : 0.7 % ( sample saw extended idle time and heavy AC use )



Date: 5/19/2008
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 131,000
Oil Type: Mobil-1 TDT 5W 40
Fe Iron: 20
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 6
Cu Copper: 1
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 0

Here is mu 120K analysis on my 04 PD. oil used Elf Solaris 507.00 for 9,000 miles.

Alum : 8
Cromium : 1
Iron : 29
Copper : 2
Lead : 2
Tin : 0
Moly : 25
Nickel : 1
Manganese : 1
Silver: 0
Ti tanium: 0
Pottasium : 3
Boron : 12
Silicon : 2
Sodium : 6
Calcium : 1774
Magnesium : 79
Phosphorus : 703
Zinc : 842

Viscosity @ 210F : 64.3
Viscosity @ 100C : 11.42 ( CST)
Fuel < 0.5
Soot : 0.3
TBN : 3.2

Iron and aluminum are lower than before when M-1 5W-40 TSUV was used. But I suspect leftover 505.01 spoiled that analysis. To verify I should go back to 505.01 oil and retest. For now , M-1 TSUV went back in after I used the Elf 507 for 12K miles.

 

[Kristopher]

Found this excerpt on this site.

See part way down about ZPD/Zinc
****
Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.

The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."

The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.
If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group
***

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

.....
Iron and aluminum are lower than before when M-1 5W-40 TSUV was used. ....

I am comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges.

ESP VS ESP in a PD BHW vs PD BHW vs other PD and vs ESP in a non PD.

Miles on UOA: 6400 vs 100,000

Additional additive: MoS2, ZDDP vs mine none

 

[silverbox]

Dimitri you are getting great UOA#'s no mater what oil you are using. Were you using the GC and 507.00 elf in the winter only?
Does the engine sound different with the 0w30? The reason I ask is my car seemed smoother and quieter with the GC 0w30 than with the D1 esp. My UOA's were good with both oils as well. .Your impressions?

Date: 12/23/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 6,400
Miles/unit: 187,000
Oil Type: German Castrol 0W-30 505.00 , SL

Fe Iron: 24
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 6
Cu Copper: 1
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 258
Nickel : 0
P: 1257
Zinc: 1370
Boron:10
Calcium:3809

Additive : MoS2 , ZDDP


Visc @ 100C : 13.11
Soot : 0.4 %
Fuel : <0.5 %

Date: 10/15/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 180,000
Oil Type: M-1 TDT 5W-40 CI-4+

Fe Iron: 33
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 6
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 1
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 227
Nickel : 1
P: 1226
Zinc: 1465

Additive : MoS2


Visc @ 100C : 15.81
Soot : 0.3 %
Fuel : <0.5 %

Date: 06/16/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 170,000
Oil Type: M-1 TDT 5W-40 CI-4+

Fe Iron: 20
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 7
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 147

Additive : MoS2


Visc @ 100C : 15.25
Soot : 0.3 %
Fuel : 2.5 % ( had a misfiring injector )

Date: 03/11/2009
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 9,000
Miles/unit: 160,000
Oil Type: ELF EVO 0W-30

Fe Iron: 24
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 5
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 1
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 202

Additive : MoS2


Visc @ 100C : 10.68
Soot : 0.3 %


Date: 12/11/2008
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,500
Miles/unit: 151,000
Oil Type: Mobil-1 TDT 5W 40 CI-4
Fe Iron: 31
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 5
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 1
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 64

Visc @ 100C : 15.28 , slightly on the high side
Soot : 0.4 %


Date: 8/29/2008
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 141,000
Oil Type: Mobil-1 TDT 5W 40
Fe Iron: 33
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 5
Cu Copper: 2
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 352

LM MoS2 additive used

Soot : 0.7 % ( sample saw extended idle time and heavy AC use )



Date: 5/19/2008
Engine Code: BEW
Miles/oil: 10,000
Miles/unit: 131,000
Oil Type: Mobil-1 TDT 5W 40
Fe Iron: 20
Cr Chromium: 1
Al Aluminum: 6
Cu Copper: 1
Pb Lead: 2
Sn Tin: 0
Moly : 0

Here is mu 120K analysis on my 04 PD. oil used Elf Solaris 507.00 for 9,000 miles.

Alum : 8
Cromium : 1
Iron : 29
Copper : 2
Lead : 2
Tin : 0
Moly : 25
Nickel : 1
Manganese : 1
Silver: 0
Ti tanium: 0
Pottasium : 3
Boron : 12
Silicon : 2
Sodium : 6
Calcium : 1774
Magnesium : 79
Phosphorus : 703
Zinc : 842

Viscosity @ 210F : 64.3
Viscosity @ 100C : 11.42 ( CST)
Fuel < 0.5
Soot : 0.3
TBN : 3.2

Iron and aluminum are lower than before when M-1 5W-40 TSUV was used. But I suspect leftover 505.01 spoiled that analysis. To verify I should go back to 505.01 oil and retest. For now , M-1 TSUV went back in after I used the Elf 507 for 12K miles.

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

Great???

UOA taken at 6400 not at full 10,000 miles

Additional MoS, ZDDP were added

 

[silverbox]

Yes great, 24ppm at 6400mi is great, and consistent with what he has been getting. I doubt his Fe would be above 35 at 10,000 mi. since the greatest wear is usually at the beginning of the OCI.
If you look on the UOA database here
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=205814
You will see all Dimitri's Wear numbers are way below average.

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

Yeah..with the extra additive he added to the oil, anybody can bring his/her UOA wear metals down. Is not a rocket science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSxbmUcR8ao

 

[Xavior]

Yeah..with the extra additive he added to the oil, anybody can bring his/her UOA wear metals down. Is not a rocket science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSxbmUcR8ao

haha that made my day

 

[Dimitri16V]

Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.

that's BS .
Older oils had 0.2% or more ZDDP , Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate.
Whover wrote that article is an idiot. How does he explain all the identical failures in all kinds of engines ? From modified domestic to exotic to newer euro engines. defective materials can't be an issue , it happens with stock cams , modified cams,stock lifters etc..

I have talked with chemists at Infineum whcih makes additives for motor oil companies and they admitted that less ZDDP will wear the camshaft on flat tappet engines. I will get a chance to talk with chemists at Afton Chemicals ( ex Ethyl corporation ) for their opinion.

the only myth I see here is that artcicle

 

[Sloppy Snood]

the only myth I see here is that artcicle

Come on now Dimitri16V......if the information is in print, it must be true, right?

Your molybdenum disulfide additive is Lubro-Moly, correct? Have you seen actual lower wear due to (in part) the addition of this additive? Thanks.

 

[Dimitri16V]

Great???

UOA taken at 6400 not at full 10,000 miles

Additional MoS, ZDDP were added

the oil was kept for 10,500 miles. It was tested earlier to evaluate the increase in ZDDP level using the additive since it was the first time I used it. Another sample was not resubmitted since wear looked already good at 6400.
The MoS2 has not shown to have any noticable benefit , it has not been used every time either.
all 0W-30s were used in winter and the engine was smoother with GC but so was my Scirocco and my lawnmower

I will do an UOA on 15W50 in summertime

Yeah..with the extra additive he added to the oil, anybody can bring his/her UOA wear metals down. Is not a rocket science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSxbmUcR8ao

Nice response

see you when you reach 190,000 miles

 

[Dimitri16V]

Come on now Dimitri16V......if the information is in print, it must be true, right?

Your molybdenum disulfide additive is Lubro-Moly, correct? Have you seen actual lower wear due to (in part) the addition of this additive? Thanks.

have not seen any benefit but being only $6 , I figured it's worth a try.

I have to find the 110K UOA. That was the 1st oil change with M-1 TDT and I remember wear was higher than what you see above . I think Fe was around 50-60 ppm. that was due to left over Motul 505.01 oil in the crankcase.

 

[SonyAD]

Only the very best 5w40 synthetics and the exceptional 0w40 synthetics provide a normal engine enough protection (film strength and film thickness) in a HTHS environment. Normal meaning (to me) one with contact roller rocker OHC valvetrain (not even finger followers like in many/most 2.5 tdi V6s).

In flat tappet engines with thin cams, unsupported camshaft bearings and high downward forces on the camshaft an oil otherwise leisurely adequate might not be enough long before you reach 150°C.

There is nothing sequestering the oil between the cam and tappet like in a journal bearing. Film strength is the only thing working to prevent contact. So above a minimum threshold, flow matters squat in there.

BTW, why do they camfer the edges of the cams. Isn't that making it easier for oil to escape from in front of it?

The viscosity class of an oil is but a very crude indicator of the oil's viscosity. One should duly note the 40°C viscosity and the 100°C viscosity, the Viscosity Index and the HTHS viscosity. I would be highly reluctant to use an oil with a viscosity index of less than 170 and 100°C viscosity of less than 14 mm²/s.

To the point of the engine running dry on start-up.

That's likely true but I don't think anywhere to the extent that Liqui Moly graph makes it out to be unless you're running an oil filter with no anti-drainback diaphragm/valve.



If I had a 1.9 tdi I would definitely use the MoS2 additive from Liqui/Lubro Moly. I don't but still do.

I've bought their Ceratec (boron nitride) additive for next OC, due soon, but am at odds whether to use it in conjunction with the MoS2 or skip an interval and use the MoS2 in the power steering.

 

[RalphVa]

In answer to silverbox's question about engine sound with 0w30: our VW Cabrio is DEFINITELY quieter with 0w30 vs. 5w30 on startup. The lifters seldom pound on it now on startup. They ALWAYS mounded with the 5w30.

Never noticed any difference in sound on the 240D with 0w30 vs. 5w40 or the 10w40 I used a good bit of its life. It was always a noisy engine (but far quieter than those diesel pickups).

My JD diesel tractor engine sound is no different for 0w30 vs. 5w30. This one sounds virtually the same as the 240D, even though it's 3 cylinders vs. 4 in the 240D.

 

[silverbox]

Sony, I take issue with your definitive statement "Only the very best 5w40 synthetics and the exceptional 0w40 synthetics provide a normal engine enough protection".
There are quite a few examples of Xw30 oil providing adequate protection on 1.9 and 2.0 TDI's. Check the Used Oil Analysis Database on this forum.
A good example is Total Ineo Mc3. Also Member Indego Blue Wagon Had great results going 20,000mi with Elf Full Tech.
These are both PAO Synthetic oils which may have had something to do with the good results.

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

In flat tappet engines with thin cams, unsupported camshaft bearings and high downward forces on the camshaft ...

I don't quite understand you?

...BTW, why do they camfer the edges of the cams. Isn't that making it easier for oil to escape from in front of it?

It's a stress reliever. Radius and and chamfer corners have less stress than sharp ones.