5w30? 5w40?

[TomB]

Try to keep the change intervals consistant. In this case you drove ~5,000 less miles on the most recent analysis. Due to this difference in mileage the information isn't very useful to you regarding whether the current brand/weight of oil is any better/worse than previous.

That was at the request of the lab to shorten the interval because of the HIGHER levels.

 

[TomB]

I would make sure it meets VW spec and then choose weight from there. Since you're in Canada I would look at 0w weight oils since most of the wear comes from start up. As for the 30 vs. 40 debate sometimes a 30 really acts like a light 40 and vis versa. It all depends on the brand of oil.

My car requires LL04 and I can use 0w-30/40, or 5w-30/40.

Assuming the majority of the wear is at start up is a debatable subject, not an absolute as stated.

We have yet to see proof that the 0 provides better protection than the 5 at startup. That was the WHOLE point of my postings. I had metal issues even with the 0w30 usage.

With the known PD cam issue it makes it hard to evaluate if oil related or cam related.

 

[Cool Breeze]

Assuming the majority of the wear is at start up is a debatable subject, not an absolute as stated.

.

Hmm I didn't know that. I've always been under the belief that if a certain engine is prone to developing specific wear problem then it's a design issue and not a 0w vs 5w oil issue.

 

[Cool Breeze]

That was at the request of the lab to shorten the interval because of the HIGHER levels.

If I'm reading your UOA correctly you went ~10k miles on 0w-30 and then switched to 5w-30 which you ran for 5k miles. Since the OCI also changed you can't determine with certainty whether the lower wear figures are a result of the shorter OCI or the different oil.

IJS

 

[Cool Breeze]

So your saying that since most wear is at start up that if its a 5w40 oil and its cold its harder to draw on and protect it at start up because its more viscous?

That's my opinion. For start up it's the lower figure which matters 0w vs 5w.

 

[dfusconi]

Rotella T6 Synthetic

I have been using Rotella T 5W-40 for three years since walmart stopped carring Mobile 1 for diesel engines. I am happy with it and it's easy to get. 2003 jetta TDI 125K.

 

[donDavide]

I have been using Rotella T 5W-40 for three years since walmart stopped carring Mobile 1 for diesel engines. I am happy with it and it's easy to get. 2003 jetta TDI 125K.

Since when did WAL-MART stop carrying M1-TDT? 2 near me and both have it. It is 21 inch michelin wiper blade i \have a hard time gettiing , I had to go 3 differnt ones

 

[Joe_Meehan]

So your saying that since most wear is at start up that if its a 5w40 oil and its cold its harder to draw on and protect it at start up because its more viscous?

I would assume that is what Cool Breeze, meant and it is correct. Both are the save viscosity when then engine is warm.

 

[dieseldorf]

...for three years since walmart stopped carring Mobile 1 for diesel engines.

Not true. It's still in the stores and the pricing is better than ever. It was down to $21/gallon, now it's back up to $22/gallon. Not all stores have it, you may have to check around. (It is in the Bellingham store. I always see a few gals on the shelf.)

Welcome aboard, Fusconi !

 

[TomB]

If I'm reading your UOA correctly you went ~10k miles on 0w-30 and then switched to 5w-30 which you ran for 5k miles. Since the OCI also changed you can't determine with certainty whether the lower wear figures are a result of the shorter OCI or the different oil.

IJS

Since metal readings are cummulative, longer run intervals will increase the values. It can be projected out for the longer change interval from the shorter run times.

I ran the 506.01 0w30 Elf evolution from the 5K change and on at 10K intervals, until the metal issues came up. The discussions on this board started indicating some high wear rates. At that time no one knew what the cause was, we now know it was the cam wear issues starting.

As well the Elf was no longer readily available, so I switched to the Elf Solaris LSX 5w30 AND decreased the interval because the lab saw the >10K interval and suggested the lower interval.

The 5w30 continued to show wear, so I move to the 5w40 since there was now discussions that the 30 was too thin for the BHW engine and that this could be causing the cam wear failures.

 

[TomB]

So your saying that since most wear is at start up that if its a 5w40 oil and its cold its harder to draw on and protect it at start up because its more viscous?

There is also the belief that thinner oils leave the parts more quickly, especially over night thus provide little or no protection on startup, whereas the thicker oils continue to cling to the parts providing more protection until the flow is fully restored.

Again, there are two sides to the issue and you have people on one side or the other.

 

[Cool Breeze]

There is also the belief that thinner oils leave the parts more quickly, especially over night thus provide little or no protection on startup, whereas the thicker oils continue to cling to the parts providing more protection until the flow is fully restored.

Again, there are two sides to the issue and you have people on one side or the other.

Isn't this two different things? Viscosity vs. Film Strength. I would think film strength would be the same regardless of whether it's a 0w or 5w*.

*Assumed both oils are from same manufacturer and both meet the same automobile-manufacturer specification.

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

....It's not the thinner oil that will kill the camshaft , it's the lack of ZDDP......

Low SAPS ESP oils replace the nasty ZDDP with Boron which is a much better additive protecting the valvetrain.

No clogging up the CAT, EGR, PDF, and other emission after treatment gear, and greener tail pipe.

It's a win-win

 

[Dimitri16V]

Low SAPS ESP oils replace the nasty ZDDP with Boron which is a much better additive protecting the valvetrain.

No clogging up the CAT, EGR, PDF, and other emission after treatment gear, and greener tail pipe.

It's a win-win

ZDDP nasty ? how so ? only if you are allergic to it

the ZDDP is a scapegoat and its removal only serves the automakers decreasing the engines life span. it's a win for the automaker , automechanic and loss for you

The jury is still out on boron

 

[Cool Breeze]

ZDDP nasty ? how so ? only if you are allergic to it

the ZDDP is a scapegoat and its removal only serves the automakers decreasing the engines life span. it's a win for the automaker , automechanic and loss for you

The jury is still out on boron

Kinda like MTBE? oh no..wait. *I'm joking around*

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

...
The jury is still out on boron

If so, why Mobil1 uses Boron in their low SAPS ESP oils in place of ZDDP?

 

[TomB]

I got the Pentosin 5w40 results back. Total numbers for 2558 miles were

Alum 2
Chromium 1
Iron 14
Copper 10
Lead 2
Tin 1
Moly 3
Nickel 1
Potassium 3
Sodium 7

The chart is in value/mile so we can compare between the different Oil mile usage.

The first two graph points were Elf Evolution 506.01 0w30. Third one was after switching to Elf Solaris LSX 5w30. The fourth point is the Pentosin HPII 5w40.

It looks like the Copper wear started at 28,166 with the grey Passat before the switch to 5w30 at 40,937. Although now the copper has dropped "slightly" with the 5w40. Or does it mean the copper is all gone now?

I have included the second graph of the Blue Passat. It shows the copper wear starting at 30,534. Is that coincidence or when the Cam issue starts?

This second car was run on Motul 505.01 5w40 and ElF Solaris LSX 5w30 and now has Pentosin with the last change. 0w30 never touched it.

What do others see in these results?

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

TomB,

What are the reasons for doing UOA at such low mileage? Since you have 2 identical cars, why don't have one car using oil A and the other using oil B and have each UOA at 10k? I think you will get a better result that way.

 

[Joe_Meehan]

the ZDDP is a scapegoat and its removal only serves the automakers decreasing the engines life span. it's a win for the automaker , automechanic and loss for you ..

How many engines have you seen that failed due to oil issues or wear of parts lubed by the engine oil when the owner used the correct oil, did not run it dry etc.

I am not against the use of the stuff, but I really question the advantage of it for the average driver with a stock engine.

 

[donDavide]

I guess Joe has not been reading the threads about PD cam falures.

 

[TomB]

TomB,

What are the reasons for doing UOA at such low mileage? Since you have 2 identical cars, why don't have one car using oil A and the other using oil B and have each UOA at 10k? I think you will get a better result that way.

The two cars are different manufacture dates. The gray is one of the last made and the blue was about 8 months earlier. I have found differences between the vehicles. For example the Blue has the oil drip from the intake system, the gray does not. The Blue had the injector pump leaks/recall, the gray did not. The blue had GP failures, the gray did not.

There are comments that some of the later PD's had different camshaft components so I am trying to monitor only one at a time to limit the variables.

The short interval is too keep an eye for any SUDDEN and BIG changes indicating a need to act immediately.

I am not changing the oil at this 2,558 check, just doing withdrawals on the oil at various points in its life.

 

[GoFaster]

If so, why Mobil1 uses Boron in their low SAPS ESP oils in place of ZDDP?

Because they are forced to by the environmentally-driven limits on total "ash" content. That doesn't necessarily imply that the boron-based additives are any better or worse than ZDDP ... only that they do less damage to catalytic converters.

My understanding is that from the point of view of wear protection, ZDDP remains the best known compound for that purpose.

 

[Joe_Meehan]

I have been using Rotella T 5W-40 for three years since walmart stopped carring Mobile 1 for diesel engines. I am happy with it and it's easy to get. 2003 jetta TDI 125K.

Mine has had it for the last three years, that's what I use.

 

[Joe_Meehan]

I guess Joe has not been reading the threads about PD cam falures.

That I have not. I guess I don't keep up with PD since I don't have one. Thanks for the information.

Is it believed that more changes reduces the problem?

 

[Dimitri16V]

How many engines have you seen that failed due to oil issues or wear of parts lubed by the engine oil when the owner used the correct oil, did not run it dry etc.

I am not against the use of the stuff, but I really question the advantage of it for the average driver with a stock engine.

flat tappet engines thrive on ZDDP, you take it away , they are on their way to the junkyard.
the extra protection that large amounts of ZDDP provided is not there anymore. None of the oil additive companies or oil companies will tell you what amount of ZDDP is safe to use without causing excess wear on the cam lobes.

 

[RalphVa]

Those plots back up what I said before: most wear occurs on startup, and a 0w30 will provide better protection there.

 

[Cool Breeze]

flat tappet engines thrive on ZDDP, you take it away , they are on their way to the junkyard.
the extra protection that large amounts of ZDDP provided is not there anymore. None of the oil additive companies or oil companies will tell you what amount of ZDDP is safe to use without causing excess wear on the cam lobes.

I was reading today that back in mid 2000's the big players who made flat tappets went out of business and the void was filled with cheaper parts. Oil formulation changes are also suggested but IMO it's probably a combination of the two. Sounds like a tough spot.

Maybe that's cause?
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

 

[TomB]

Those plots back up what I said before: most wear occurs on startup, and a 0w30 will provide better protection there.

After seeing that the iron continues to climb with the 5w30 and 5w40, I am starting to think the 0w30 was better for overall wear.

It looks like the Copper issue started under the 0w30, so not sure if that is just the cam/tappet issue or the number of miles. It seems like they both started to have the copper issue at about 30K miles regardless of the weight. The grey had 0w30 and the blue had 5w30.

Then again, we would need to see those using 5w40 the whole time and evaluate if they started having copper issues at the same 30K range.

 

[RalphVa]

How does synthetic get higher mpg than a dino, and why did 0w30 give higher mpg than 5w40 on my 1983 240D? Because the 0w30 or synthetic aren't grinding away the valve train while the engine is running, and particularly when starting.

 

[TomB]

How does synthetic get higher mpg than a dino, and why did 0w30 give higher mpg than 5w40 on my 1983 240D? Because the 0w30 or synthetic aren't grinding away the valve train while the engine is running, and particularly when starting.

One could assume because it takes more energy to pump a thick fluid under pressure than it does a thinner one. That requires additional energy.

I have analyzed my MPG logs and here is my summary review. 0w30 - 30.44 mpg summer and 30.04 winter, 5w30 - 30.47 summer and 31.28 winter, and for the 5w40 - 29.69 for the winter. I don't have summer numbers yet for the 5w40. I will work on a graph.

This does not bare out any big MPG differences between the grades. Remember that in the Pacific NW our temperature difference between summer and winter are not that extreme, only about a 40 degree spread.

One thing to note is that with the 0w30, I had to add oil, since it was being consumed. With the switch to 5w30 and 5w40, the level stays rock solid.

I conceded a point to you and you succeeding in over-reaching in your conclusions.