5w30? 5w40?

[Xavior]

hey guys, just had a question about what oil i should be using for my car. I hopped on to TDIparts and according to them i can use 5W30 for my BEW engine.

Here is the link:
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_120&products_id=1053

I always used to use Castrol 5W40 from the dealer but im looking for better options for the upcoming winter months here in canada.

Im a tad confused if i can be using that oil at all, or should i stick with the castrol.

Regards,

 

[dieseldorf]

Well, this is going to be one of those questions that has no single correct response. Some folks now feel that the xW40 oils are going to offer a bit more protection to that fragile camshaft fitted to the PD cars. OTOH, as long as the oil meets 505.01, it has been certified for the BEW.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Joe_Meehan]

I suggest that you might consider reading the owner's manual where VW provides their specifications for the oil and the change interval.

If you modify the engine, then you are own your own and there have been many threads about oil under different conditions.

 

[Xavior]

I completely understand about the owners manual. the 505.01 spec is to be used. But in winter conditions with my car sitting outside, ideally the 5W30 would be better?

 

[dieseldorf]

well, they're both 5W-xx oils. They'd be similar with cold cranking.

 

[dlb]

Well, this is going to be one of those questions that has no single correct response. Some folks now feel that the xW40 oils are going to offer a bit more protection to that fragile camshaft fitted to the PD cars. OTOH, as long as the oil meets 505.01, it has been certified for the BEW.

Welcome aboard!

Lots of cars on this forum with a "supposedly" fragile camshaft are doing just fine with over 100-200K+ miles (me included). I wouldn't go all the way and say they are ALL fragile ?? And the 505.01 oil thing is also no guarantee ...... but I'd say continue to use that spec when you're inside your warranty period.

 

[Xavior]

Lots of cars on this forum with a "supposedly" fragile camshaft are doing just fine with over 100-200K+ miles (me included). I wouldn't go all the way and say they are ALL fragile ?? And the 505.01 oil thing is also no guarantee ...... but I'd say continue to use that spec when you're inside your warranty period.

My warranty has expired a while back, im up to 180K on the car now, turbo went at 170...just my luck... and now im looking to see what my options are for oil seeing that on TDIparts or IDparts they are suggesting 5W30

 

[Sloppy Snood]

I cannot speak for other motors but the camshaft in the BHW engine in the W-2004-2005 Passats is sensitive to abnormal wear if you do listen to the dealerships and use 5W-30 VW 505.01 specification oils.

Guru oilhammer has previously noted that when the BHWs first arrived in the U.S., a 5W-40 505.01 specification oil was recommended by VW Germany but the ignorant VWOA and its dealership did not have the 5W-40 505.01 oils and were filling BHWs up with 5W-30 oils in 505.00 spec. and 501.00 spec. oils. Camshaft and lifter wear are real issues here with 5W-30 oils and the BHW.

I could care less about the VW 505.01 specification simply because unless it is a 5W-40 oil, the BHW camshafts will wear prematurely. We are now finding out how "weak" that 505.01 spec. is for the BHW camshafts and only now, in hindsight, realize that a couple non-VW certified oils (M1 TDT 5W-40 and M1 ESP Formula M 5W-40) are not only less expensive in the U.S. but protect better than a "warranty-approved" 5W-30 VW 505.01 oil.

 

[RalphVa]

Most valve train wear occurs at startup. So, you'd be better with a 0wxx oil.

I was using 0w30 Mobil 1 in our 1983 Benz a few thousand miles before selling it. Am also using 0w30 Mobil 1 in my diesel tractor.

In a test my Sun Oil on a taxicab fleet, some had dino oil; others had Mobil 1. The Mobil 1 engines had NO VALVE TRAIN wear at all.

In a test showing valve train benefits of using a 0wxx oil, Imperial Research did some cold starts in a -40 F/C room on a Chrysler 4 cylinder with transparent valve cover. ALL oils produced valve train smoke on startup except for 0wxx one.

JD has a 0w40 synthetic for JD tractor diesels. I don't know whether it meets any of the VW specs. On mine, I'm using 0w30.

You can probably get a 0w30 Mobil 1 ESP oil that'll meet even the 507 spec.

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

......
You can probably get a 0w30 Mobil 1 ESP oil that'll meet even the 507 spec.

I don't believe Mobil has M1 ESP 0W30, but only in ESP 5W30 flavour VW507.00 spec.

If I were you I would go with the M1 ESP FM 5W-40.
You would still get the 5W grade oil for Winter cold temp. start up, hence the letter W, and the 40 weight grade oil for the high temp. protection. It's a win-win.

 

[Xavior]

Hey the M1 ESP FM 5W-40 better then the castrol 5W40? I just picked up some castrol 5W40. Where can i get this M1 ESP FM 5W-40 up in canada?

 

[donDavide]

Hey the M1 ESP FM 5W-40 better then the castrol 5W40? I just picked up some castrol 5W40. Where can i get this M1 ESP FM 5W-40 up in canada?

In my opinion, most likely. read the label and see if Castrol says not for sale outside the Americas then Castrol is group 3 and M1 is better.

 

[Joe_Meehan]

well, they're both 5W-xx oils. They'd be similar with cold cranking.

I believe this is the winning answer. I somehow missed the point of the question in my earlier post. The first number (in this case both are 5) is the cold temp figure so both oils are going to have similar cold starting performance.

 

[T_D_I_POWER]

Hey the M1 ESP FM 5W-40 better then the castrol 5W40? I just picked up some castrol 5W40. Where can i get this M1 ESP FM 5W-40 up in canada?

You should be able to get it from MB or Chrysler dealers

.....The first number (in this case both are 5) is the cold temp figure so both oils are going to have similar cold starting performance.

......You would still get the 5W grade oil for Winter cold temp. start up, hence the letter W, and the 40 weight grade oil for the high temp. protection

 

[TomB]

Most valve train wear occurs at startup. So, you'd be better with a 0wxx oil.

In a test showing valve train benefits of using a 0wxx oil, Imperial Research did some cold starts in a -40 F/C room on a Chrysler 4 cylinder with transparent valve cover. ALL oils produced valve train smoke on startup except for 0wxx one.

Ralph, do you have the UOA reports to support this first statement?

My multiple UOA have shown that the 0w30 and 5w30 oil does not cut it for BHW engine. The 30 just isn't enough at normal operating temps.

I have the new Pentosin 5w40 UOA submitted to see if there is a change, but based on OilHammer and others statements (with pictures and UOA) it should be better.

The key is to have a 40 weight oil for normal operating temperatures where the vehicle is 99% of the time. I have yet to see a 0w40 505.01 compliant oil on the market. 505.01 compliance is important because there are other levels related to that standard beside the weight of the oil.

Also, applying the results of a Chrysler 4 cylinder gasser to a VW TDI is just nonsense. These are two totally different beasts.

 

[RalphVa]

I worked for 31 years in the lube oil process industry. We were privy to all the Imperial Research test work. They stated that most wear occurs on startup. Don't recall ever seeing the data on this. The Sun Oil data (reported to me by a guy who worked for me, quit, went to work for Sun and then back with ExxonMobil after Sun went out of the lube oil business) sorta indicate that the wear likely occurs on startup. Otherwise, why wouldn't they report wear to the bearings or other lower end machinery on dino oil vs. Mobil 1? Makes sense from the Imperial Research startup test that the valve wear is occuring on startup. The lighter your oil is (and 0wxx is lightest), the better will be your protection.

I'm not convinced that you need the protection of xxw40 oil at operating temperature.

My (limited) data on our 1983 240D showed 0w30 oil gave 1 more mpg over 5w40 oil that I had been using in it. That's 3%, which is around 1.2 mpg on a TDI.

A 0w30 oil will be lighter at startup (if below the 0wxx test tmperature, typically around 5 F) than a 0w40 and certainly lighter than a 5w40. The oil pump will pick the lighter oil up a whole lot faster.

Best way to eliminate such startup wear would be to install electrical driven (prelube ones are used in some equipment) lube oil pumps. Even they would have a difficult time getting suction quick enough at -40 F/C starts though.

 

[dieseldorf]

 

[GoFaster]

RalphVa, you can go too thin with oil viscosity. Thin oil escapes from the clearances in a journal bearing too easily and can lead to the oil film being too thin between camshafts and lifters. For example, you really, really don't want to use the new Xw20 oils except in an engine that specifically calls for their use (and oil suppliers and engine manufacturers agree on this, it's not just me). Even if the bearing is still capable of maintaining hydrodynamic conditions, that's contingent on having adequate supply of oil to the bearing. If the oil leaks out easier then it needs a larger supply volume. If the demand exceeds the ability of the oil pump to supply it ... big trouble.

If you go through the P-D cam/lifter survey thread, it appears that those who used Xw30 oils at some point in the engine's life are overrepresented.

P-D or rotary-pump TDI engines all use flat-tappet lifters and I wouldn't suggest anyone to use an Xw30. The common-rail engine has rollerized cam followers, which shouldn't be as sensitive to it.

 

[TomB]

RalphVA,

So what metals indicate valve train wear and what metals indicate crankshaft/bearings wear?

Here are my UOA using the 0w30 and then 5w30. The 0w30 showed higher levels of iron, copper and lead. The 5w30 showed some improvement except on copper.

Again, I am waiting on the 5w40 results to come back.

[/IMG]

 

[Dimitri16V]

to those that have 200K miles or more on their PDs and claim that the lifters/cam are fine, post pics . At the very least , there is more wear than normal. Chances are you will need a new cam/lifters before 250K

 

[Dimitri16V]

RalphVA,

So what metals indicate valve train wear and what metals indicate crankshaft/bearings wear?

Here are my UOA using the 0w30 and then 5w30. The 0w30 showed higher levels of iron, copper and lead. The 5w30 showed some improvement except on copper.

Again, I am waiting on the 5w40 results to come back.

[/IMG]

you might wanna buy the camshaft/lifter kit now.
The thinner oils didn't kill the camshaft . I used 0W-30 506.01 and Castrol 0W-30 505.00 and 5W-30 507.00 before and the UOAs looked fine.

Look at the tin, that's your lifters wearing out. Copper is the cam bearings taking a crap

 

[Joe_Meehan]

Has anyone found data on a worn out engine (stock) that had oil changed according to the VW recommendation using the prescribed oil?

 

[Dimitri16V]

Has anyone found data on a worn out engine (stock) that had oil changed according to the VW recommendation using the prescribed oil?

half of the reported fubared PDs have been using 505.01 5W-40 in 10K intervals

It's not the thinner oil that will kill the camshaft , it's the lack of ZDDP and the extra loading on the camshaft from the injectors. the fact that the lower bearings are worn and the upper are pristine is evidence of those loads.
a thinner oil might not be ideal in the summer but it should be fine in the winter. But a synthetic 5W-30 should not kill the engine if used all year around.

did you know that an oil tested by VAG has to pass a camshaft/lifter wear test to get the 505.00 spec ?

VAG drives the crank with an electric motor at a certain speed for a number of hours. The requirements for lobe or lifter scuffing is that none should be present.

I wonder if the 505.01 certification has a similar test and how they deal with the injectors if the engine is electrically driven

 

[GoFaster]

Tin and copper are babbitt material and that's either cam bearings (certainly not unheard of on a P-D) or main/rod bearings (rare for those to fail unless the engine has had an oil-starvation situation). The babbitt bearings in this engine are supposedly lead free, but that has been an ingredient in traditional babbitt bearings. Tin is NOT present in any significant amount in either the camshaft or the lifter wear faces. Iron and chromium are present in steel alloys but you can't tell from an oil analysis whether it's coming from the cam / lifter interface or from the piston ring / cylinder interface because the same stuff is present in both.

From what folks have posted about the insides of these engines, I suspect that the engine for which the oil analyses were posted above is wearing into the cam bearings. Iron and chromium are present, but not excessive.

 

[Joe_Meehan]

half of the reported fubared PDs have been using 505.01 5W-40 in 10K intervals

I am not familiar with the PDs. They are 507.xx are they not?

 

[Cool Breeze]

hey guys, just had a question about what oil i should be using for my car. I hopped on to TDIparts and according to them i can use 5W30 for my BEW engine.

Here is the link:
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_120&products_id=1053

I always used to use Castrol 5W40 from the dealer but im looking for better options for the upcoming winter months here in canada.

Im a tad confused if i can be using that oil at all, or should i stick with the castrol.

Regards,

0w-30, 0w-40 for year round.

 

[Cool Breeze]

RalphVA,

So what metals indicate valve train wear and what metals indicate crankshaft/bearings wear?

Here are my UOA using the 0w30 and then 5w30. The 0w30 showed higher levels of iron, copper and lead. The 5w30 showed some improvement except on copper.

Again, I am waiting on the 5w40 results to come back.

[/IMG]

Try to keep the change intervals consistant. In this case you drove ~5,000 less miles on the most recent analysis. Due to this difference in mileage the information isn't very useful to you regarding whether the current brand/weight of oil is any better/worse than previous.

 

[Xavior]

0w-30, 0w-40 for year round.

You suggest 0w-40? VW suggests 5w40, the 0w40 is a lighter oil i assume so easier for the oil pump to draw on when its coooold in canada ?

 

[Cool Breeze]

You suggest 0w-40? VW suggests 5w40, the 0w40 is a lighter oil i assume so easier for the oil pump to draw on when its coooold in canada ?

I would make sure it meets VW spec and then choose weight from there. Since you're in Canada I would look at 0w weight oils since most of the wear comes from start up. As for the 30 vs. 40 debate sometimes a 30 really acts like a light 40 and vis versa. It all depends on the brand of oil.

My car requires LL04 and I can use 0w-30/40, or 5w-30/40.

 

[Xavior]

I would make sure it meets VW spec and then choose weight from there. Since you're in Canada I would look at 0w weight oils since most of the wear comes from start up. As for the 30 vs. 40 debate sometimes a 30 really acts like a light 40 and vis versa. It all depends on the brand of oil.

My car requires LL04 and I can use 0w-30/40, or 5w-30/40.

So your saying that since most wear is at start up that if its a 5w40 oil and its cold its harder to draw on and protect it at start up because its more viscous?