10mm vs 11mm alh injection pump

[EttaTheJetta]

Hey there ALH crew. I am looking to upgrade to an 11mm injection pump on my 2000 manual Jetta. I’m wondering if one can take and swap the hight pressure pump side and leave the pump body on the car? I’m getting mixed information from different sources. Thanks in advance

 

[[486]]

you... can but it's a lot tougher than just taking it off and sticking it vertical in the vise

 

[Nevada_TDI]

486 has it.

 

[jimbote]

there's more to an 11mm pump than just the head. Timing piston, cam plate, possibly pump body. Swap the entire pump if you can. You will get more fuel if you just swap the head but it won't be optimal, and as stated above swapping in the car will be an exercise in frustration and it's easy to lose and/or break parts, or misassemble.

 

[[486]]

is the timing piston different?
Last I experimented around with it there wasn't any "base advance curve" built into the pump like on the older mechanical governed pumps. They just sit at whatever the sprocket's set at until the computer feeds the CSV some juice.

 

[jimbote]

is the timing piston different?
Last I experimented around with it there wasn't any "base advance curve" built into the pump like on the older mechanical governed pumps. They just sit at whatever the sprocket's set at until the computer feeds the CSV some juice.

completely different design. The 11 piston has a spring loaded valve built into the center of the piston, not sure of it's purpose but it may allow the timing piston to return quicker. The 10 piston is just a solid machined piece.

 

[oilhammer]

It is for "rev hang" for the automatic cars. At least, that's what they (Volkswagen) told us in tech school. Just because of how an automatic transmission behaves vs. a manual. I think it is just along for the ride if you put the entire 11mm pump in a manual car. Doesn't hurt anything, but possibly isn't really necessary either. Although I theorize it might be why so many 11mm pump cars in manuals often need some IQ tweaking (both mine did, and one still isn't "perfect" unless the A/C is running). But on cars I've swapped just the head I never had to mess with that. But... it is a pain in the butt to do on the car, and I won't ever mess with doing it like that again. And at this stage of the game, I won't even mess with any pumps again anyway. I just let DFIS do all that. They are all so old and have so many miles by now. But at one time, a couple decades ago, it was a pretty popular thing to just buy the 11mm genuine Bosch pump head and swap them on the car.

 

[Mongler98]

Hey there ALH crew. I am looking to upgrade to an 11mm injection pump on my 2000 manual Jetta. I’m wondering if one can take and swap the hight pressure pump side and leave the pump body on the car? I’m getting mixed information from different sources. Thanks in advance

What other mods have you done? If its stock... forget about it.
Order goes nozzles. Turbo and supporting mods and a tune.
If you want more after your clutch slipping upgrade then head work and a cam is good match worth a high revving tune. Then you can think about a IP mod.

Letting us know more details may save you more than the value of the car its self in mods.

Imo until your at the point of some internal upgrade like rods and lower compression pistons.... you are not ready for an IP mod.

 

[oilhammer]

And, of course, disregard what Mongler says.

If you do NOTHING else to a stock, healthy, 5sp ALH but put an 11mm pump on there, it WILL run better. Seat of the pants I'd say it gives it about 10hp all by itself, with more punch off the line and mid-range. It feels like a stock BEW to me.

 

[Mongler98]

And, of course, disregard what Mongler says.

though i do agree with this statement!
i didnt say it wont run better, i was making the point that its a waste of $. the grand you will pay to do this mod, unless you have a machine shop..... its the biggest waste of $ to performance and MPG gain ratio. A cam and an IP mod on a bone stock car ALH... are only good for people who hate money with nothing to show for it.
you could buy 2 sets of performance tires for the price. or even a tune and nozzles!

 

[EttaTheJetta]

completely different design. The 11 piston has a spring loaded valve built into the center of the piston, not sure of it's purpose but it may allow the timing piston to return quicker. The 10 piston is just a solid machined piece.

Thank you for the info

 

[EttaTheJetta]

there's more to an 11mm pump than just the head. Timing piston, cam plate, possibly pump body. Swap the entire pump if you can. You will get more fuel if you just swap the head but it won't be optimal, and as stated above swapping in the car will be an exercise in frustration and it's easy to lose and/or break parts, or misassemble.

Thanks. I appreciate your feedback

 

[oilhammer]

We don't know the OP's situation... given the fact that all the 01Ms have pretty much died over the years, there have been ample opportunities to snag an 11mm ALH pump and swap it to a car that is continuing its long life with a manual gearbox. That's how I got a hold of quite a few of these, as well as for a time the cost from Volkswagen was the same, so we just sent a 10mm back as a core for a new 11mm pump. They don't care (they no longer rebuild them anyway).

 

[EttaTheJetta]

It is for "rev hang" for the automatic cars. At least, that's what they (Volkswagen) told us in tech school. Just because of how an automatic transmission behaves vs. a manual. I think it is just along for the ride if you put the entire 11mm pump in a manual car. Doesn't hurt anything, but possibly isn't really necessary either. Although I theorize it might be why so many 11mm pump cars in manuals often need some IQ tweaking (both mine did, and one still isn't "perfect" unless the A/C is running). But on cars I've swapped just the head I never had to mess with that. But... it is a pain in the butt to do on the car, and I won't ever mess with doing it like that again. And at this stage of the game, I won't even mess with any pumps again anyway. I just let DFIS do all that. They are all so old and have so many miles by now. But at one time, a couple decades ago, it was a pretty popular thing to just buy the 11mm genuine Bosch pump head and swap them on the car.

Thank you. Great feedback

 

[EttaTheJetta]

What other mods have you done? If its stock... forget about it.
Order goes nozzles. Turbo and supporting mods and a tune.
If you want more after your clutch slipping upgrade then head work and a cam is good match worth a high revving tune. Then you can think about a IP mod.

Letting us know more details may save you more than the value of the car its self in mods.

Imo until your at the point of some internal upgrade like rods and lower compression pistons.... you are not ready for an IP mod.

I have a Malone tune with a stock turbo and stage tree clutch. She is already wicked fast but I have an 11mm sitting here needing a new car

 

[PakProtector]

Hunt up its new home carefully. No sense working on a rat...
cheers,
Douglas

 

[[486]]

It is for "rev hang" for the automatic cars. At least, that's what they (Volkswagen) told us in tech school. Just because of how an automatic transmission behaves vs. a manual. I think it is just along for the ride if you put the entire 11mm pump in a manual car. Doesn't hurt anything, but possibly isn't really necessary either.

huh, interesting
got a 7.3 IDI that I stuck a manual behind and that thing returns to idle so fast that you gotta hang the throttle a little bit in order to upshift smoothly
always figured it was some part of the governor setup, since you can get auto and manual calibrated pumps. Never cared enough to screw with it, and it's slowly killing itself off with cylinder wall cavitation anyways, so no big deal.

 

[oilhammer]

IH/Navistar/Ford has an anti-cavitation additive that is supposed to go in the cooling system of all the old gas V8 based 6.9L and 7.3L (444 CID) diesels. Not sure what IH calls it, but Ford has it in their Motorcraft brand, that's what we use here. ESN-M99B169-A is the Ford info.

Those engines will last pretty much indefinitely with proper care. Heck, my '90 got a Hypermax turbo kit slapped on it when it was brand new, and was still haulin' balls over 300k miles later and it was primarily used by the original owner to haul a gooseneck livestock trailer all over, then it was used to carry horses in a trailer, until I finally got it... and I used it to drag and haul all kinds of things. It was a beast.

 

[[486]]

IH/Navistar/Ford has an anti-cavitation additive that is supposed to go in the cooling system of all the old gas V8 based 6.9L and 7.3L (444 CID) diesels. Not sure what IH calls it, but Ford has it in their Motorcraft brand, that's what we use here. ESN-M99B169-A is the Ford info.

Yeah, it doesn't patch holes that the previous owner put there though.

actually dumped a used motor in it once because of this, newer motor has the same issue lol
I'll just let it eat until it actually dies. Ain't worth sleeving a single cylinder much less all eight.

 

[mech644]

thanks to the OP for raising the question, timely for me.
Would the tune need any adjusting after swapping from a 10pm to an 11?
My ‘00 ALH (RC3+, PP520’s, PD150 manifold and intake pipe, Eurojet SMIC & larger pipes, Whitbread down pip, and just swapped back to a new Mahle vnt15) is still running the original 10mm ip. 320k on it, other than staking the pressure relief valve and replacing the end seal Oring the ip has worked just fine. Car still reliably returns 46-50 mpg, +4 or 5 more if I’m NOT driving it….
But as Oilhammer noted, 11’s can be acquired pretty easily. I see them often at a local junkyard with 100-150k on them for $500.
I‘m tempted to switch but would be reluctant if the tune needs adjustments that only RC can do. No issues with him in anyway, just need to establish some sort of limit on myself, lol

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

You're going to be over-fueled with an 11mm pump and those nozzles. The VNT-15 is the limitation on handling fueling with your setup. You could bump the IQ up to 5 or 6, and you should be OK, but FE might suffer a bit. I run RC3+ with PP357s and an 11mm pump. It is, by far, my favorite ALH setup.

 

[[486]]

PP520’s
vnt15

you've already got more fuel than a 1749v can handle

 

[Abacus]

Watching this because I have an 11mm to swap onto the wagon when I feel like it, and the K03/04 turbo at the same time. I just have to dig my fingers out and start wrenching, but it runs good the way it is now. I miss the power of my old B4 sedan.

 

[[486]]

Watching this because I have an 11mm to swap onto the wagon when I feel like it, and the K03/04 turbo at the same time. I just have to dig my fingers out and start wrenching, but it runs good the way it is now. I miss the power of my old B4 sedan.

it's really no big deal, just swap the pump head and camplate over, then set the IQ via "hammer mod"
the one measurement to be mindful of is the space in the pumping chamber, don't want the pumping element to run into the endcap, it is adjusted with the little shim between element and camplate
Measure camplate lift, then assemble and make sure that the plunger is at least that far below the "deck" of the barrel.
You'll want the two topcover seals and the three o-rings in the steel pump head.

10mm pumps came with better delivery valves for performance purposes, the 11mm pumps got ones that allow more expansion of the trapped fuel between injection events

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

So basically swap the 10mm delivery valves over to the 11mm?

 

[ghohouston]

So basically swap the 10mm delivery valves over to the 11mm?

Thats what I did.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I would seriously doubt that the delivery valves are the only differences between the two pumps. I don't think swapping those valves gets you 11mm pump output.

 

[Randomhomelesstdibeetlegu]

I would seriously doubt that the delivery valves are the only differences between the two pumps. I don't think swapping those valves gets you 11mm pump output.

Swap 10mm valves to 11mm pump. Perhaps even swap the timing solenoid from 10mm to 11mm.

 

[[486]]

I would seriously doubt that the delivery valves are the only differences between the two pumps. I don't think swapping those valves gets you 11mm pump output.

no, please read preceding posts for context
you want to use the 10mm DVs on the 11mm pump head if you're looking for the most amount of fuel delivery

 

[PakProtector]

no, please read preceding posts for context
you want to use the 10mm DVs on the 11mm pump head if you're looking for the most amount of fuel delivery

Sounds like a plan...just need a means to clean up a set of 10mm DV's well enough to plug into a good runnin' 11mm pushing 5-hole, PP764's...

Douglas