Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[scooperhsd]

https://global.handelsblatt.com/edi...ts/article/carb-chief-repair-replace-redress?

What could a fix look like?

There are three different generations of vehicles we are talking about here. It appears as though the newer vehicles can be brought back into proper emissions levels with a software fix. The middle generation may require some hardware in addition to the software. And the oldest vehicles, the so-called Gen1 vehicles, they may require a retro fit. And we are quite concerned about that because of our experience with retro fits in general. We have seen in the past that retrofit devices just don’t work as well as they are intended to, even it is being done by the original manufacturer. So I think it is quite likely that they will end up buying back at least some portion of the fleet from the current owners.

Haven't we covered this before ? Nothing new to see here...

 

[Rico567]

Apparently the head gasket thingy was fixed a few years ago. They simply redesigned the thing, sorry, don't remember as of what MY. They also switched all 2.5 and 3.6 engines to a timing chain from the belt around the same time, if I remember correctly.

Visit a Subaru forum or two, you will be able to nail the details in 20 minutes.

Yes, and I also learned on the Outback forum that the head gasket issue is constantly moving into the future due to a "continuous creep" effect. Subaru has announced for a number of years "Yeah, we've got that head gasket thing solved." But when those cars hit the magic mileage range, yeah, they need head gaskets, too. This is from people who are confirmed Subaru enthusiasts and continue to own them, and just accept the head gasket thing as the cost of doing business.
The chain design is probably better than a belt, and may last the design lifetime of that boxer engine, but as we all know, chains wear out, too.

 

[whitedog]

https://global.handelsblatt.com/edi...ts/article/carb-chief-repair-replace-redress?

What could a fix look like?

There are three different generations of vehicles we are talking about here. It appears as though the newer vehicles can be brought back into proper emissions levels with a software fix. The middle generation may require some hardware in addition to the software. And the oldest vehicles, the so-called Gen1 vehicles, they may require a retro fit. And we are quite concerned about that because of our experience with retro fits in general. We have seen in the past that retrofit devices just don’t work as well as they are intended to, even it is being done by the original manufacturer. So I think it is quite likely that they will end up buying back at least some portion of the fleet from the current owners.

I can't read the entire article without logging in, but if that paragraph is from Mary Nichols the head of CARB, it sounds more like what SHE would want VW to do, not what VW is proposing. Yes, that may end up being the answer, but I don't believe that this is confirmation.

 

[MotoTDI]

I can't read the entire article without logging in, but if that paragraph is from Mary Nichols the head of CARB, it sounds more like what SHE would want VW to do, not what VW is proposing. Yes, that may end up being the answer, but I don't believe that this is confirmation.

VW does not get to decide unilaterally what will be done. This is quasi negotiation on a solution both can accept. Whatever solution VW agrees to for US customers it has to consider another country / market using it as a precedent.

Like Union negotiations, once a contract is set with GM or Ford, the others tend to adopt a large percentage of the established agreements. Like it or not CARB is a powerful entity in establishing standards / agreements.

scooperhsd: This is newsworthy because it indicates CARB is laying the framework for what it considers a reasonable solution. CA is one of the largest auto markets and VW does not want to do anything that would result in CARB or CA regulators to make it more difficult to sell cars in CA.

For example, based on VW admitting to the devices being installed and their intended purpose, CARB could possibly require greater accountability and auditing of all VW group products sold in CA going forward with the audit expense passed back to the VW group.

 

[KipF]

I can't read the entire article without logging in, but if that paragraph is from Mary Nichols the head of CARB, it sounds more like what SHE would want VW to do, not what VW is proposing. Yes, that may end up being the answer, but I don't believe that this is confirmation.

One thing that really sticks out to me is her statement "At the moment the cars we are talking about that came to California are 15 percent. But because we have a much more severe air problem and our engineers were the ones who identified the problem we would expect to see a larger portion of the settlement — but that is all to be worked out in the future."
Maybe it's just me, but it seems she is more concerned with how much settlement money they will get vs an actual fix. I think it's going to be a give and take from both sides to come up with something that meets the requirements as best it can but is also reasonable and doable.

 

[Diesl]

[...] I'm sure it'll come out soon though and more and more states are stating they think VW should do buybacks on at least some of the TDI's.
It's going to get interesting soon.

More and more states are also thinking (I use that term loosely..) we should send Syrian refugees back to where they are fleeing from. Maybe solve two problems at once, and give each of them a TDI to take back with them?

 

[Jeta Life]

Mary Nichols, head of CARB, the kind of people VW lawyers have to deal with.

Other Californians too:

http://crazifornia.com/2013/12/10/californias-13-most-dangerous/

Based on what's happening with the 1.6 engine, we may expect something like this:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/18/vw-tdi-emission-fix-report/

The auto industry is a tough place to be right now. I spoke to a few dealers where I just had a check light diagnosed and they are anxiously awaiting the overtime pay.

The service advisor gave me the Jetta 1.8T as a loaner. Nice car, he recommended to stay away from the 1.4 due to it being too new for established history. That 1.8T was a nice ride ! Gassers are the way to go, I got 38 mpgs with it, not bad.

 

[marmaj]

The chain design is probably better than a belt, and may last the design lifetime of that boxer engine, but as we all know, chains wear out, too.

So, in other words, and if I understand you correctly, if the chain lasts the lifetime of the boxer engine it shouldn't be a problem, right?

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Gotta love this lynching. The US Government asking for a buy back is an effing joke. I don't see Chevron, who flooded some area's of the Amazon with crude oil, affecting people lives who still live there, who refuse to pay the billions in fines, still try to find clean soil samples to prove its not polluted, and they are allowed business as usual. And that's only the one's we know about, probably 1000's more story's we'll never find out.

 

[barshnik]

My 2013 TDI SEL has been in the shop nearly 6 weeks out of about 120 weeks of ownership. A few weeks ago I called. Customer Care pointing this out, along with my concern about possible fixes for the emission issues. Among the problems was a HPFP failure that stranded us on a vacation to. NoCal. Vw was nice enough to flatbed the car to our home in LV after all repairs were done. Then, a few months after that it suffered a urea tank / sensor / heater failure. Other issues were minor, like a windshield washer pump failure.

I received a call yesterday offering to take back my TDI for a 2016 gasser. ( or a 2016 TDI if they are released for. sale), using MSRP then and now for the two vehicles as the financial baseline.

Pretty darn nice of them I thought, enough to keep me during a vw. Have a few things to discuss yet, but think I'll go for a new TSI SEL if the financial agreement can be finalized. Told them I wanted a couple weeks to think about it.

Another option is to keep my TDI and hope for the best, but given the history of my car I think I'd be more comfortable driving a new gasser on trips. Already had one vacation disrupted. Opinions /. comments?

-----------

I realize now this isn't the correct forum for this post, so the moderator can delete, and readers can ignore. Thanks,

 

[haunruh]

I'd go for the 2016 TSI trade, if for nothing else than to get out of this current fiasco. Good luck.

 

[SageBrush]

I received a call yesterday offering to take back my TDI for a 2016 gasser. ( or a 2016 TDI if they are released for. sale), using MSRP then and now for the two vehicles as the financial baseline.

That sounds too good to be true. Can you post numbers ?

 

[Rico567]

So, in other words, and if I understand you correctly, if the chain lasts the lifetime of the boxer engine it shouldn't be a problem, right?

Yup. If. Our older car, an '04 SAAB, has a pretty bulletproof timing chain, it's the tensioner that has a habit of failing about 200K. Ours has 175K and so far, so good. Of course, unless it's caught, ultimately the chain will self-destruct, and the result is the same.
Given diesel longevity, I think a belt that's replaced at a standard interval is probably a better idea.

 

[Rico567]

<snip>

I received a call yesterday offering to take back my TDI for a 2016 gasser. ( or a 2016 TDI if they are released for. sale), using MSRP then and now for the two vehicles as the financial baseline.

<snip>

I would jump at that immediately, if I'm correct in my interpretation of what you've written. I have to expect you're getting a nice deal because of your history with the car. Since we've had negligible trouble (NOx sensor replaced under warranty) with our '13 Passat, I'd not expect to be offered such a deal.

 

[barshnik]

That sounds too good to be true. Can you post numbers ?

Not until I pick a car and things are final. It may very well be too good to be true.

 

[barshnik]

I would jump at that immediately, if I'm correct in my interpretation of what you've written. I have to expect you're getting a nice deal because of your history with the car. Since we've had negligible trouble (NOx sensor replaced under warranty) with our '13 Passat, I'd not expect to be offered such a deal.

Yes, I 'soft-pushed' for lemon law for the month it was in a shop a long way from home, but didn't pursue it. All in their records though. My biggest gripe with them about diesel gate is that my wife is an environmental scientist for a large government contractor and she liked the idea it was 'green'. Now not so much. We'll see how this progresses. 38mpg highway with the auto TSI seems optimistic, I can usually get 40 with the TDI driving rapidly.

 

[Softrockrenegade]

Thseriousthly?

Anybody else read this in Napolian Dynamite' voice?

 

[GoFaster]

Please stop quoting the statement from Mary Nichols of CARB. It is not necessary to link or quote EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE that this quote appears in. It is SPECULATIVE. PLEASE READ the last several pages as it has already been covered several times, and quoting every single newspaper that quotes this single quote is not constructive!

 

[1854sailor]

Please stop quoting the statement from Mary Nichols of CARB. It is not necessary to link or quote EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE that this quote appears in. It is SPECULATIVE. PLEASE READ the last several pages as it has already been covered several times, and quoting every single newspaper that quotes this single quote is not constructive!

This thread stopped being constructive long ago.

 

[SteveW928]

Gotta love this lynching. The US Government asking for a buy back is an effing joke.

Well, yea, in comparison to other concerns I suppose it's a joke. And, yea, IMO, a take-down attempt on the German economy... but VW made the bed, so...

But, as an owner, I sure as heck want a buy-back program! If they can't 'fix' this without impacting fuel-economy, performance, or reliability/longevity, then I'd have ABSOLUTELY bought a different vehicle.

While I love my Jetta TDI, I won't love a nerf'd one!

Heck, I'd like to roll back to maybe the 2nd firmware update after I bought it (that seemed to improve shifting-pattern/timing a bit). All the updates since that have made it run worse. The last one has made the fan run almost constantly. (Now I know why!)

Anyway... as far as I can see, a buy-back is the ONLY real solution. Anything less and I'm going to be one heck of a pissed off customer. And, I know website design, marketing, etc.... I already have the domain. (vwscandal.info)

Your move.... VW.

 

[Mark SF]

Please stop quoting the statement from Mary Nichols of CARB. It is not necessary to link or quote EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE that this quote appears in. It is SPECULATIVE. PLEASE READ the last several pages as it has already been covered several times, and quoting every single newspaper that quotes this single quote is not constructive!

I'm not sure you used a large enough font. I'm having trouble reading it.

 

[pknopp]

I'm not sure you used a large enough font. I'm having trouble reading it.

There are a lot of people having trouble comprehending it also.

 

[SteveW928]

There are a lot of people having trouble comprehending it also.

So long as it sets up expectations, I guess it accomplishes the goal.

 

[LRTDI]

This thread stopped being constructive long ago.

First the HPFP goes to the dumpster then this one.

Blame ourselves.

Blame VW for starting the ball rolling downhill.

But I don't think Moderators are setting a good example with their mega font.

 

[Riflesmith]

Well, yea, in comparison to other concerns I suppose it's a joke. And, yea, IMO, a take-down attempt on the German economy... but VW made the bed, so...
But, as an owner, I sure as heck want a buy-back program! If they can't 'fix' this without impacting fuel-economy, performance, or reliability/longevity, then I'd have ABSOLUTELY bought a different vehicle.
While I love my Jetta TDI, I won't love a nerf'd one!
Heck, I'd like to roll back to maybe the 2nd firmware update after I bought it (that seemed to improve shifting-pattern/timing a bit). All the updates since that have made it run worse. The last one has made the fan run almost constantly. (Now I know why!)
Anyway... as far as I can see, a buy-back is the ONLY real solution. Anything less and I'm going to be one heck of a pissed off customer. And, I know website design, marketing, etc.... I already have the domain. (vwscandal.info)
Your move.... VW.

Hopefully you realize that VW could simply tell the authorities in North America where to go if the penalties imposed are too draconian. Foreign governments are not really in the position to impose unlimited punishment. Take down the German economy? Not likely. These folks are not fools.

 

[VWmeow]

I'll add another:

7) Just buy the same Clean Air Credits the EPA sells to polluters over their threshold that allows
them to continue to pollute. If other companies can buy them to stay in business, why can't VW
buy them. Leave the cars as they are and focus on the new ones and the old ones will slowly go
away due to attrition and engineering problems anyway.

This way the consumer wins in that their cars still return great economy, the EPA wins in that they
get gobs of money and a promise that can be kept, and VW wins in that it will probably cost them
less. It's a win-win-win compromise that keeps the world spinning and shuts up those bent on making
this into more than it is already.

The very fact that you can actually pay to pollute is what makes me take nothing the EPA says or does seriously. Its ALWAYS about the almighty buck. Which is perfectly fine.. but dont throw stones in glass houses. The EPA really stands for the Environmental Pay up Agency..

 

[Chrisinla]

Hopefully you realize that VW could simply tell the authorities in North America where to go if the penalties imposed are too draconian. Foreign governments are not really in the position to impose unlimited punishment. Take down the German economy? Not likely. These folks are not fools.

They certainly are doing a good imitation....
Unless VW closes up shop in the US, they will comply

 

[CHenry]

Hopefully you realize that VW could simply tell the authorities in North America where to go if the penalties imposed are too draconian. Foreign governments are not really in the position to impose unlimited punishment. Take down the German economy? Not likely. These folks are not fools.

I suspect both sides acknowledge the realities of this situation. The EPA has its mandate and VW has to cooperate avidly in devising a remediation plan that it will then have to implement in the USA as a going concern and not as some entity in receivership. VW also knows that if it thumbs its nose at the US government, it will be walking away from an important growth market in which it has invested billions of Euros of company money. Worse, that kind of example will have very negative repercussions in other countries that expect VW to take emissions regulations seriously and comply with the law. VW's value in Germany is as an export producer of German technology; ruining their relationships with importing partner countries is a non-starter.

 

[jen_madcity]

My 2013 TDI SEL has been in the shop nearly 6 weeks out of about 120 weeks of ownership. A few weeks ago I called. Customer Care pointing this out, along with my concern about possible fixes for the emission issues. Among the problems was a HPFP failure that stranded us on a vacation to. NoCal. Vw was nice enough to flatbed the car to our home in LV after all repairs were done. Then, a few months after that it suffered a urea tank / sensor / heater failure. Other issues were minor, like a windshield washer pump failure.

I received a call yesterday offering to take back my TDI for a 2016 gasser. ( or a 2016 TDI if they are released for. sale), using MSRP then and now for the two vehicles as the financial baseline.

Pretty darn nice of them I thought, enough to keep me during a vw. Have a few things to discuss yet, but think I'll go for a new TSI SEL if the financial agreement can be finalized. Told them I wanted a couple weeks to think about it.

Another option is to keep my TDI and hope for the best, but given the history of my car I think I'd be more comfortable driving a new gasser on trips. Already had one vacation disrupted. Opinions /. comments?

-----------

I realize now this isn't the correct forum for this post, so the moderator can delete, and readers can ignore. Thanks,

Take the offer and run. I asked them for exactly that...my car has been in the shop 9 days/28 weeks of ownership. They called and said "Uh, no." If they were smart, they'd offer those who WANT IT a way out of their diesels but keep them in a VW. Keeps them with the brand and placates them at the same time. Good luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Abacus]

The very fact that you can actually pay to pollute is what makes me take nothing the EPA says or does seriously. Its ALWAYS about the almighty buck. Which is perfectly fine.. but dont throw stones in glass houses. The EPA really stands for the Environmental Pay up Agency..

That has been the position of several of us on these boards for some time.

That it's even allowed to happen removes credibility from the agency doing it, the same one crying foul now.

It is always about the money...and power.