Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[Claudio]

I emailed VW asking them to buy back my 2013 Passat SEL TDI at fair market value before the scandal. Here is the response I got:


Haven't heard from them since. It's been 10 days.

Also, went to 4 dealerships in the area asking to trade the Passat for a TSI Jetta but they said the are not taking any TDIs as trade-ins. They didn't even bother lowballing me. Crazy! I bought 8 brand new Audis and VWs in the past 13 years. I don't think I'll buy another one.

i did the same thing, they called me back after a few hours saying that at the moment they are still investigating the matter so they can't do any buyback, but it is an option their are considering.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I recall the Touareg V10 TDI was briefly available for a while in all 50 states in 2006.

And then there were no new TDIs in the USA during 2007 and 2008 until the 2009 TDIs arrived in late 2008.

V10s were also available in 2007 and 2008 during the time when no other TDIs were available. That's a mostly useless factoid in the context of this discussion, but it's fun nonetheless.

 

[imurrx]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-retrofit-may-be-among-costliest-recalls-ever

This article mentions that they may set to market repair shops to handle the retrofit.

The more I read the more it looks like smoke screen and nothing will be done until a buy back happens to the ea189 engines. At that point they will be worth less than the repair.

 

[fredthe]

Best quote I've seen from the press on this:

“Perhaps they can change their advertising slogan from ‘Das Auto’ to ‘Das Motor: Engines so complicated even we don’t understand how they work!’”

 

[notoveryet]

Why do you want to trade it? Is it giving you problems? If you have bought 8 new vehicles in 11 years.....you should probably be leasing. Mileage doesn't matter if you turn it in a few months early and go right into another lease. The VW dealer near me is taking TDi's in on trade. They tried to get mine the other day when I had the 100,000 mile service done. They offered me a fair price for the mileage.....but, of course, I declined!!
Donald

Honestly, I am not looking to get flamed here but here it is. I recycle, conserve energy, drive clean-ish cars, and live trying to minimize my ecological footprint. It’s my personal philosophy and I am not imposing it on anyone here or in real life. When I found out my car is a lot dirtier than I was led to believe at the time of purchase, my natural reaction was to get rid of it. I simply don't want to drive it anymore and all I want is to get a fair market value before the scandal which, according to KBB, should have been around 21K for a clean 2013 Passat TDI SEL with 38,500K miles. VW lied to me with the whole “clean diesel” premise. I know if I lied to my customers like that, I would be long out of business and living on the streets.

That said, I am not asking to be gold-plated by VW. I am not asking for any freebies or concessions. I am not even asking to be reimbursed for the false advertising, to which I fell victim. I drove 40K and I am willing pay for that wear, tear, and depreciation. All I want is to sell this car and not lose my shirt in the process since it’s just sitting here in the garage as an eye sore.

 

[kydsid]

I agree. I'm not really interested in discussing fraud compensation, because it isn't productive. We have no say in how that will play out, so it's just a matter of wait and see.

Completely disagree. If we had numbers and a unified message to our legislatures that this was fraud and crucify them it would happen. Sadly America doesnt get together on issues any more just argue over them.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-retrofit-may-be-among-costliest-recalls-ever
This article mentions that they may set to market repair shops to handle the retrofit.
The more I read the more it looks like smoke screen and nothing will be done until a buy back happens to the ea189 engines. At that point they will be worth less than the repair.

That article quotes a few figures, from "at least several hundred" to "thousands of dollars" to our very own Linford Berry's "more than $3,500 [to retrofit] in my shop."

Regarding the comment by Linford, that is using retail prices for both labor and parts. Or, at best, wholesale pricing for parts. Volkswagen pays neither full price labor rates nor list price for parts.

It could indeed end up costing several thousand dollars per vehicle, but that's still cheaper than a buy-back at an average price of (let's hazard a guess, here) $10,000 per vehicle.

Total carbon footprint from buying back and destroying 325,000 vehicles followed by producing new vehicles to replace them would be huge when a less expensive alternative to bring them into compliance exists.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Honestly, I am not looking to get flamed here but here it is. I recycle, conserve energy, drive clean-ish cars, and live trying to minimize my ecological footprint. It’s my personal philosophy and I am not imposing it on anyone here or in real life. When I found out my car is a lot dirtier than I was led to believe at the time of purchase, my natural reaction was to get rid of it. I simply don't want to drive it anymore and all I want is to get a fair market value before the scandal which, according to KBB, should have been around 21K for a clean 2013 Passat TDI SEL with 38,500K miles. VW lied to me with the whole “clean diesel” premise. I know if I lied to my customers like that, I would be long out of business and living on the streets.

That said, I am not asking to be gold-plated by VW. I am not asking for any freebies or concessions. I am not even asking to be reimbursed for the false advertising, to which I fell victim. I drove 40K and I am willing pay for that wear, tear, and depreciation. All I want is to sell this car and not lose my shirt in the process since it’s just sitting here in the garage as an eye sore.

Selling/trading your car is NOT clean, due to the manufactereing costs of buying another premade car. Your TDI is still clean and as pointed out in other study's, cleaner than most.

So sit back, drive your car and enjoy it, worry less,

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Completely disagree. If we had numbers and a unified message to our legislatures that this was fraud and crucify them it would happen. Sadly America doesnt get together on issues any more just argue over them.

I should have been more specific. You're right that a unified message to our legislators will be effective, as that's how legislation works. However, that will not take place in this thread because it is obviously not a common goal that people are interested in working towards. If it were, you would see a lot more research and a lot less ranting happening in this thread.

 

[oilhammer]

The "pre-fix" cars' value will be going up once this is all blown over. I suspect not many non-SCR cars will end up being retrofitted, if that does indeed end up being the path they choose.

 

[YukonLT]

How can anyone start to put a price on a retrofit when they haven't even designed it yet? It could cost $20,000 for all we know.

 

[jims2321]

US regulators are eager to resolve this issue. 2018? Come on.

They have no incentive to resolve this fast nor does VW. If they stall and delay they may get a more favorable regulators. Nothing moves fast when it comes to EPA/NHTSA. Think about it. VW has to engineer the hardware fix for the gen 1. That is realistically a year. So you are talking end of 2016 before its ready. Then it has to be reviewed and tested by EPA/CARB and NHTSA, that alone will take at least 6 months or more. So your at mid year 2017, now. Then VW has to manufacture and ship and build these special repair facilities and train. Even if they start beginning of 2016, the final training and configuration of the repair shops can not be set until the government approvals. 2018 is not unrealistic.

I have not even mentioned the lawsuits by states, and individuals that might impact the final fix.

Jim

 

[Yardstick56]

'Come in for expert service and drive away with a FREE Volkswagen toque.'
This is the first offer I have received from Volkswagen, hard to pass up. ; )

 

[VeeDubTDI]

How can anyone start to put a price on a retrofit when they haven't even designed it yet? It could cost $20,000 for all we know.

We know what components make up the system and those components have prices. Retail pricing for these parts have been discussed, but as I said before, Volkswagen isn't going to do this at retail prices.

 

[YukonLT]

We know what components make up the system and those components have prices. The full retail price for this system and labor to install it would be under $5000. As I said before, Volkswagen isn't going to do this at retail prices.

So they already have a fully designed, bolt in system to fit the LNT cars?

 

[maybe368]

We do have a say, through legislation and providing feedback directly to our elected officials. A person providing feedback to elected officials should be informed on the issues so as to prevent more speculation, noise, and misinformation. Unfortunately, many of those elected officials are uneducated on the issues themselves.

That is all true, but I am going to have a personal say. I do not intend to be part of a class action, I intend to negotiate with them through my attorney. I intend to be compensated...Mark

 

[roostre]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-retrofit-may-be-among-costliest-recalls-ever

This article mentions that they may set to market repair shops to handle the retrofit.

The more I read the more it looks like smoke screen and nothing will be done until a buy back happens to the ea189 engines. At that point they will be worth less than the repair.

I enjoyed VW CEO Matthias Mueller's answer to the last question in that article.

Asked about trying to fit new parts like a catalytic converter into an engine where there’s no space, he said:

“Then we will just have to make space, to rebuild it if need be. Of course at no cost to the consumer.”

Mr. Mueller certainly has a different perspective.

I have not seen one post on this forum or any news article questioning if this recall would be “at no cost to the consumer”.

And I can count on one hand with a few fingers missing the number of posters eagerly awaiting this “rebuild it if need be” recall.

From “Boris” (played by Woody Allen) in the 1975 movie “Love and Death”:

“Wow! The battle looks completely different in the middle of it than it does to the generals up on the hill.”

 

[YukonLT]

They have no incentive to resolve this fast nor does VW. If they stall and delay they may get a more favorable regulators. Nothing moves fast when it comes to EPA/NHTSA. Think about it. VW has to engineer the hardware fix for the gen 1. That is realistically a year. So you are talking end of 2016 before its ready. Then it has to be reviewed and tested by EPA/CARB and NHTSA, that alone will take at least 6 months or more. So your at mid year 2017, now. Then VW has to manufacture and ship and build these special repair facilities and train. Even if they start beginning of 2016, the final training and configuration of the repair shops can not be set until the government approvals. 2018 is not unrealistic.
I have not even mentioned the lawsuits by states, and individuals that might impact the final fix.
Jim

I'm with you. I don't think some people realize how huge of an undertaking this will be, and on cars that will be pretty long in the tooth before possible implementation. It just doesn't add up...

 

[VeeDubTDI]

So they already have a fully designed, bolt in system to fit the LNT cars?

It's basically the same system that the gen 2 cars have. There will be some engineering to make it all fit into the gen 1 cars, but the components won't be much different.

It's possible that they opt to go with a gen 3 system, but those components exist, as well. I think gen 2 is the more likely option, but that remains to be seen.

 

[k^2]

I'm not sure what the labor time for a timing belt has to do with an SCR retrofit. They're completely unrelated jobs.

Just think. Replacing a component that was designed to be replaced vs installing a now component that your car was not designed to have installed. Huge difference. If I am not mistaken a timing belt install takes min 4hours.

 

[Jimmy Coconuts]

Volkswagen pays neither full price labor rates nor list price for parts.

You think VW dealers (who VW screwed way more than any customer) are going to offer up their facilities and employees at cost? Absolutely not going to happen.

If VW has to set up specialty repair facilities it would be even more expensive than paying dealers retail rates to clean up VW's mess, as they would have additional overhead for brick and mortar facilities, hiring and training new employees. Think about that. They would need one in every major city. Then what happens when the repairs are finished? Lay off all the workers they hired and trained?

It's going to cost a lot more than a few thousand dollars to fix the gen 1 cars. The potential for sunk and hidden costs is huge.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

That is all true, but I am going to have a personal say. I do not intend to be part of a class action, I intend to negotiate with them through my attorney. I intend to be compensated...Mark

I think that is a far more productive approach than jumping on a class-action bandwagon right now.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

You think VW dealers (who VW screwed way more than any customer) are going to offer up their facilities and employees at cost? Absolutely not going to happen.

If VW has to set up specialty repair facilities it would be even more expensive than paying dealers retail rates to clean up VW's mess, as they would have additional overhead for brick and mortar facilities, hiring and training new employees. Think about that. They would need one in every major city. Then what happens when the repairs are finished? Lay off all the workers they hired and trained?
It's going to cost a lot more than a few thousand dollars to fix the gen 1 cars. The potential for sunk and hidden costs is huge.

Parts at cost? Yes. Labor at cost? Of course not. There will be a negotiated rate just like insurance companies and medical practices and repair shops have.

 

[maybe368]

X2
I don't get the consumer fraud angle. No one cheated me.....they cheated the EPA. Trust me....when people can't buy a new TDi for any period of time, the values will rise on the used cars. The higher mileage cars won't be desireable, but the newbie cars will be!!
Donald
PS The "entitlement" term keeps popping up. It explains the new generation.

The epa is not a consumer, you don't seem to understand the meaning of consumer fraud...Mark

 

[maybe368]

Compensated for what? Owning per your words, "a real sports car" plus you get above EPA mileage. The level of entitlement here is embarassing.
Meanwhile in other news, Honda has "deathbags", airbags that send metal fragments into passengers causing death. Weird, no national news coverage about that?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/b...-study-that-questioned-airbag-propellant.html

Compensated for the fact that the car was not clean as advertised, period...Mark

 

[jims2321]

This is all hyperbole comments now. My car is tagged in FL, so I will not do the retro fit, because its not required currently. I would seriously doubt, that FL will ever require it because of its business friendly/environment hating officials. So this has little or no impact to me. This is more of a interesting thread to follow for me.

 

[dmarsingill]

The epa is not a consumer, you don't seem to understand the meaning of consumer fraud...Mark

I do understand.....they cheated the EPA, not the consumer. Therefore....no consumer fraud. Devaluation is a result of consumer demand, not the actual act of deception of VW. It is the same car that you bought brand new. It still functions as advertised. How do you feel you are a victim of fraud?

Donald

 

[dmarsingill]

Compensated for the fact that the car was not clean as advertised, period...Mark

VW never advertised it as a certain level of clean to the consumer. Can you provide documentation where VW stated their NOx level to the consumer before you bought it? When I bought mine, there were no ads running stating levels of NOx. The big deal back then was CO2 levels.

Donald

 

[Hyates]

Me Thinks...

That if VW wants to drill holes in my car to retrofit hardware, they will need to buy it from me and/or offer a very good incentive on a replacement. Sorry, I can't see this retrofit being a bolt-on experience.

I'm in Canada, and from what what I've read, Environment Canada does not have laws forcing owners to get this recall done. Maybe the Gov't will change their laws, who knows?

At any rate, I'm not volunteering our car for butcher classes. To me that is similar to having the car wrecked and rebuilt. Something that I would not own afterwards.

H.

 

[maybe368]

I do understand.....they cheated the EPA, not the consumer. Therefore....no consumer fraud. Devaluation is a result of consumer demand, not the actual act of deception of VW. It is the same car that you bought brand new. It still functions as advertised. How do you feel you are a victim of fraud?
Donald

Go watch any of those commercials with the 3 little old ladies and it says, multiple times "clean diesel". This is a knowing lie, repeated ad nauseam thousands of times, over an extended period of time, on national tv advertising , THAT IS CONSUMER FRAUD because THEY KNEW that they were not clean. Besides that, none of you know my personal situation, but you are sure ready to criticize what I do...Mark