Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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rte2MA

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Massachusetts
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2011 Golf TDI
40 times over, not 40 percent over.
I don't think a 14% reduction is going to offset being over by 4000%. :eek:
If X is the allowable amount, and 40X is the peak amount, then that peak amount has to be reduced by 97.5% to get it back down to X. Of course, that's the worst case scenario (at the peak).
 

bobgolf2004

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Sep 7, 2005
Location
Madison, Wisconsin USA
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2018 Camry Hybrid LE
The way I see it all 3 options are crap!
A replacement car would be a used car with unknown history.
The buy back or cash settlement would be Kelly blue book at best.
If they did get one of those 3 and you don't take it you will get a lawyers bill
Throw that letter in the trash where it belongs!
Where do you get your information? Nothing you have said is true under Wisconsin's lemon law.
 

stv

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Weed, CA
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Texas is suing VW for dirty emissions
Texas sues the EPA for making them clean up their filthy toxic nox emitting businesse. ....double standards....
http://www.texastribune.org/2015/07/08/texas-suing-epa-again/
To be clear, the link you quoted from my post is Texas suing VW on behalf of defrauded Texas citizens. Nice to see a government going to bat for its constituents . . . wish California would do that . . . . As for the NOX emitting Texas businesses please elaborate if you don't mind. I had understood Texas to be a leadng wind energy producer in the country.
 

TDIpilot4u

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2010 Jetta TDI
Amen! Jason and I just took the Passat about 1300 miles round-trip to Michigan and it returned 44 MPG on the way out and 47.4 MPG on the way back at today's interstate speeds of 70+ MPH. :cool:
Made it to the 700 club at 51mpg...and if it weren't for the ups and downs of West Virginia, could have made it to 800. The best I've had with my car averaging 65mph. Gotta love it!
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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2009 JSW, 2010 Jetta, 2011 Q7 Prestige, 2012 A3 Premium, 2013 A3 Premium Plus, 2014 Beetle, 2015 Jetta
A coworker friend owns an early Gen 1 Golf TDI, I think 2010 or 2011, and he emailed VW asking to put his name on a buyback list. Most of the reply was copy/paste from the "we're sorry" letter, but they also asked specific questions about his car. Here is a sample of their reply:

VIN:

Dealership from whom you purchased it:

Current mileage:

Whether the vehicle had any repairs performed under warranty and, if so, what they were:

Current mailing address:
 

jimbo1mcm

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CT USA
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2015 SEL TDI PREMIUM Blue 2015 SEL TDI PREMIUM's Silver and Blue
VW has no corporate morality. VW had proposed a voluntary recall to the German authorities because, and I paraphrase," the cars have passed the emissions test" and are legal to drive. This is staggering. They are totally unrepentent and do not care one iota for the environment. I am not a tree hugger but I am floored by this callous proposal. If you think for one moment that VW will do the "right" thing on their own, you are sadly mistaken. They need to be dropped to their knees by fines and lawsuits.

http://www.theguardian.com/business...al-german-authorities-reject-voluntary-recall
 

bizzle

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Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I completely agree that a car is not a financial investment, and it could be deleterious to one's plans/well being to view it as such. Hovever, there are other kinds of investments and, unless all my grad program econ professors were idiots, it's legit to view a car as an investment, just not a financial investment.
I only posted about this because I felt that persons who view their cars as (non financial) investments
were being misunderstood an, in some cases, lambasted by persons who appeared to be unaware of the broader uses of the noun investment.
Sent from the Library, where I double checked my understanding in the reference section ;-)
pretty sure I already explained this to you, but maybe it was someone else.
you unfortunately wasted time researching a red herring in the library :rolleyes:

the issue was whether private vehicle depreciation can be written off as a "capital loss." if your econ professors explained to you that a car is not a financial investment, then why were you arguing that a car's loss in financial value can be written off from one's taxes? :confused:

Thanks for linking me. The way I read the Legality Statement they aren't admitting or denying anything regarding emissions with the tunes they sell. What they are plainly admitting is some of the 'equipment' they sell may only be legal for off road use.
the question is how a company can sell something that someone else can potentially use to violate federal law. some vendors are more explicit about it, some are not. but all will have a minimum disclaimer.

it's on the end-user to follow federal law and not tamper with emissions equipment when they aren't restricting their vehicle to off-road use. and it's on the end-user to know that tampering with the fuel mappings would fall under tampering with emissions equipment.
 

Vidgamer

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Atlanta, Ga
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2011 Golf TDI (turned in)
At some point, this will all blow over. We just happen to be newsworthy for the moment…
Who remembers this from this summer? Or any of the previous 16 since 2013?
[FONT=&quot]Recall No. 17 for the current-generation Ford Escape focuses on engines that don't want to quit[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/focus-c-max-and-escape-are-always-run#ixzz3ofm1anG3[/FONT]
But why is this VW issue newsworthy? Because they set out to purposefully cheat regulations. Maybe if you find out that another company purposefully designed a flaw into a vehicle, that should be as newsworthy, but my feeling is that the above-mentioned issue isn't it. There have been many cases of cars having flaws where companies tried to cover up and not fix. I also get the feeling that some cases aren't as bad as the hype makes it sound.
 

maroonfrog1

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Fort Worth, Texas
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Audi A3 TDI S-Line 2011
The value of the TDIClub site for me in my approach to Dieselgate

... I wondered if I should even add to a thread with over 500 pages so far, but here's my plug for this site, which has helped me a great deal over the last six years...

My situation:
  • Bought 2011 Audi A3 TDI from dealer service loaner program
  • Liked the handling / performance of the car, but LOVED the mpg
  • Have put over 75,000 miles on it such that now it has passed 100k miles

Having never owned a diesel, but interested in taking the leap, I began to visit the TDIClub site in 2010 to see what the VW / Audi TDI camps were saying about their cars. I found a WEALTH of great information that helped me make the purchase decision and maintain the car over the years.

Now -- as friends of mine tell me I made a mistake buying the diesel A3 over four years ago, I look to TDIClub for advice "above the noise", and am compelled to:
  • Sit back and wait
  • Let VW figure out what's in their best interest as a company
  • Continue to enjoy driving my car
  • Put another 100k miles on it
  • Continue to get at least 10mpg better mileage than most of my commuting peers
  • Periodically check back with TDIClub to see what the savvy folks' stories are
  • Pocket a few bucks towards my next TDI when Audi makes an offer

Am I disgruntled that VW/Audi lied about their NOx emissions? Sure.
Should I fly off the handle and worry about the reduced value of my car? Nope. I bought it to drive the wheels off -- because it's a diesel and that's how they roll!

Thanks, TDIClub! for providing these forums.
-maroonfrog1
 
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Rico567

Top Post Dawg
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Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
What would be nice is a thread on "Internal Combustion Engines 101*." There still seems to be a lot of confusion about 1) how IC engines operate, 2) the differences between Otto cycle (gasoline) engines and Diesel cycle engines, and 3) the engineering challenges in pursuing both efficiency (e.g., CAFE standards) and emissions control as a matter of public policy (which, however much both may be seen as politically desirable, has nothing to do with whether they are scientifically achievable, and are NOT complementary goals for engineers).

*NB: Please, no replies to me about hybrid or EV....
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
But why is this VW issue newsworthy? Because they set out to purposefully cheat regulations. Maybe if you find out that another company purposefully designed a flaw into a vehicle, that should be as newsworthy, but my feeling is that the above-mentioned issue isn't it. There have been many cases of cars having flaws where companies tried to cover up and not fix. I also get the feeling that some cases aren't as bad as the hype makes it sound.
There are lots of cases where loopholes are clearly exploited to circumvent an unreasonable regulation. Like Ford importing Transit Connects from Turkey with rear seats bolted to the floor so they can be considered a passenger car and thus avoid the 25% import duty (aka "Chicken Tax") on trucks, then at port of entry the seats get removed and tossed out.

Or even more granular things like our new shop's parking lot that requires a certain percentage of handicapped accessible spots, and as soon as the final city inspection is rubber stamped, those spots got striped over as regular ones (and doubles the parking spaces). Or the giant ventilation system they made us put in the shop, that MUST run the entire time the shop is in operation, and therefor they made it be wired up to come on with the lights. The electricians simply prewired in a "defeat switch" in the breaker panel, and as soon as the city rubber stamped us... you guessed it, the electrician came back out and put a switch on the ventilation system. We've been in operation since January 1, that system hasn't been turned on once, and nobody here has gotten sick because of some "fumes" :rolleyes:. And now we have a giant $28k ventilation system mounted on the roof that we don't use. The roof that had to be structurally uprated and cost itself an extra $60k. And the electric feed that had to be uprated for another $10k. And the natural gas service that also had to be uprated (because it preheats the air for use in winter) for an extra $12k. So, for $110k, the city got us a giant, ugly, useless albatross of nonsense bolted to the top of the roof. To keep us all "safe" :rolleyes:

You should see the size (and I'm sure the cost is equally huge) of the stormwater reservoir the gov't made the car dealer I worked at put in when the new Lexus store was built. Imagine three olympic sized swimming pools set in the ground under the parking garage... just to be able to hold rain water in case of a once-every-100-years type of flood happens. :eek: But you know what they did? They built it as a lower level of the parking garage, so as soon as the ink was dry for the business, they could add ramps at each end and actually USE it for something. BTW, maybe 100 years from now there'll be a bunch of cheap brand new water damaged Lexus models for sale cheap :p.

Unreasonable regulations make people and organizations and companies seek out and exploit any and all loopholes they can. It won't ever change. I think what Volkswagen did was stupid, but I can at least understand the drive to do so. I only hope, although I very much doubt it will happen, is that the regulatory bodies can see the standards put in place may simply be TOO stringent and Volkswagen's chicanery will have brought this to their attention. I really think all the money in trying to make 100+ year old technology "clean" would be better spent in pursuit of replacement technology to eventually offset and ultimately replace the piston engines anyways.
 

meerschm

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Location
Fairfax county VA
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2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
.......it's on the end-user to follow federal law and not tamper with emissions equipment when they aren't restricting their vehicle to off-road use...........
lets be clear, this is an argument not based in law.

the laws do not have such an out for "off road use"

in fact, there are separate standards for off road engines and machines.

any emissions-impacting modification that changes the approved design of a vehicle approved for sale is a prohibited act under the Clean Air Act (as modified) This has been true since 1990

the most common enforcement method is inspection associated with vehicle registration in areas that fail to meet air quality standards.

some local places do have exceptions for special cases, with requirements for inspection and proper registration which fit a defined use.



http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/edge-products-llc-settlement is good background on the related question of the legality of selling devices which enable such illegal emissions modification. the only "protection" that tuners and folks that make specific substitute plumbing enjoy is just staying low and hoping they do not get high enough on the potential case list to justify legal action.
 
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HARd_NOx_LIFe

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Location
Maine
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2009 JSW manual
But why is this VW issue newsworthy? Because they set out to purposefully cheat regulations. Maybe if you find out that another company purposefully designed a flaw into a vehicle, that should be as newsworthy, but my feeling is that the above-mentioned issue isn't it. There have been many cases of cars having flaws where companies tried to cover up and not fix. I also get the feeling that some cases aren't as bad as the hype makes it sound.
This story is huge because it has become a paradigm shift event in automotive manufacturing history. This VW cheating scandal has turned into a clarion call all to automotive manufacturers around the world to ramp up R&D on hybrid and electric automotive development.
 

Claudio

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Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
A coworker friend owns an early Gen 1 Golf TDI, I think 2010 or 2011, and he emailed VW asking to put his name on a buyback list. Most of the reply was copy/paste from the "we're sorry" letter, but they also asked specific questions about his car. Here is a sample of their reply:

VIN:

Dealership from whom you purchased it:

Current mileage:

Whether the vehicle had any repairs performed under warranty and, if so, what they were:

Current mailing address:
i was curios so i tried the same thing. i explained that i wanted to trade my car before the scandal and now dealers won't accept it, and that is also depreciated. so i asked if there was some kind of buyback program and/or what my other options are. they asked VIN, mileage and if i had any other concern other than the emission. i told them about the HPFP, and explained that in my case cost of repair would be equal or higher than the value of the car.
they said they will call me by the end of the day monday to explain my options.
 

ray96disco

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San Antonio, TX
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2014 Jetta Sportwagen
You can be sure that the state of Tx doesn't give a * about consumers in the state. They just want to get an easy piece of VW for polluting the air in our great state - a concern that keeps all in the state government up at night worrying. Any money they get will doubtless go to securing the border, or paying the legal fees of the attorney general, or some other equally questionable activity. Found money from Germany is the best kind.
I was trying to be polite in case a legislator was on the forum. :) That is a particularly dense group of people. Thankfully, meeting once for 90 days every two years limits some of what they can do, though they do their damndest.
 

ray96disco

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Location
San Antonio, TX
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagen
But why is this VW issue newsworthy? Because they set out to purposefully cheat regulations. Maybe if you find out that another company purposefully designed a flaw into a vehicle, that should be as newsworthy, but my feeling is that the above-mentioned issue isn't it. There have been many cases of cars having flaws where companies tried to cover up and not fix. I also get the feeling that some cases aren't as bad as the hype makes it sound.
I'm not saying they didn't cheat and I'm not saying owners shouldn't be mad. All I'm saying is with all the soundbites coming through our lives each day, this will blow over.

It's not going to go away entirely but the majority of people forget and forget quickly. There'll be something else that comes along and the world will move on. Maybe I'm a dreamer but that's my take.
 

TDI smile

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2002 TDI (ALH) with 513,000 km. First Owner and very happy... No Problems, never left us stranded on the Highway. Average useage is about between under 4 ltr. and 5 ltr. Normal longdistance travel: 4.1/100
Just to keep you a bit updated: VW Sales are up in EUROPE by 8.4 %.....Not bad for a sick puppy.
 

stv

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Location
Weed, CA
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2013 Jetta Sportwagon
i was curios so i tried the same thing. i explained that i wanted to trade my car before the scandal and now dealers won't accept it, and that is also depreciated. so i asked if there was some kind of buyback program and/or what my other options are. they asked VIN, mileage and if i had any other concern other than the emission. i told them about the HPFP, and explained that in my case cost of repair would be equal or higher than the value of the car.
they said they will call me by the end of the day monday to explain my options.
I believe VW is developing a file for each customer that contacts them. When they call you they will probably give you a case number to use if you contact them in the future. Even if they don't resolve your issue Monday they will keep you this file and they may even call you back later if they change their mind if have a proposal.
 

Rand753

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Location
Texas
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2012 Jetta TDI
Tank 2 since the last flash was 36.4 mpg. First tank after the flash was 37 mpg. That is a loss of roughly 11% in mileage since the flash (avg). There is not enough data to draw any conclusions, but there is a trend showing.
 

JMJTDI

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Apr 22, 2014
Location
New England
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2010 Jetta TDI
Do you have any idea what responsibilities are within the EPA's purview? The truth is $7.9b is wildly inadequate for what they do. They aren't just responsible for regulating vehicle emissions and efficiency, you know. The 'environment' is a big place. Do you know how much actual cleanup the EPA does, messes left behind by negligent corporations? Given that so many people seem to have this irrational hatred for gov't, it's no surprise that the EPA gets bashed more than VW, the company that actually did the cheating. VW new the rules and could have chosen not to play if they couldn't meet them, but no, they cheated. Put the blame where it belongs, folks.
Appreciate yours and engineengineer74's clarity on the EPA's responsibilities. The dollar amounts I found on the BP oil spill, I believe, were including the amounts that were given to private industries for cleanup/recovery, etc. I'm talking about the exact $18.7B that the DoJ received in penalties for their involvement, which was basically only because the ship had their name on it (don't take this literal) when it wasn't really BP's sole fault.

Volkswagen had no idea that these defeat devices were installed on the vehicles. I mean, do you really think Michael Horn would lie underoath to Congress? He could have easily just resigned and washed his hands of the ongoing investigations and gotten another job elsewhere without taking the risk of being in contempt of Congress. He said he and any other "higher up" had no clue that these "defeat devices" were present. Given that it took 6 years for somebody to outline it makes me think that this wasn't a corporate agenda to deceive the US govt, EPA, and the consumer. A news article I read today said that the defeat devices were designed, programmed, and installed by a group of software engineers. Look at things in black and white is all I'm saying.

The most frustrating aspect of this whole circus is the fact this is being called a "scandal" in every news article. Most of the articles being written generally say: "The VW scandal has shattered consumer trust in the company, VW is gonna sink, VW has tricked us all into believing we were environmentally friendly," and if you dig a little deeper you'll find the article that says 73% of consumers say their views on diesel/VW hasn't changed and 40% said they knew very little of the "emissions scandal." Here's the link: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/co...ter-volkswagen-scandal-says-survey-2015-10-15

Interesting to see the most-mentioned terms when consumers were asked what they heard about it.
 
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