trip meter resets on cold start?

2TDIguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 23, 1999
Location
Lincoln, NE, USA
go get a $12 cig. lighter plug in digital volt meter. You can then at least see the battery voltage before, during glow cycle, and during start. I have a radar detector with voltmeter built in. If I ever see less that 11.5 volt before doing anything I am worried in the winter. YOu can also see your charging voltage. In the cold of winter I see around 14 volts charging after driving a while. You can also see the coolant plugs cycle on very cold days creating that voltage drop (lights and dash lights dim during this) via the voltmeter. As a diesel owner an onboard digital voltmeter is very handy to have around.
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
Instrument Cluster Mystery

I've been chasing the exact symptom Turnmybassup describes for two years now in my '97 with its late style cluster. I've cleaned and re-cleaned every ground, monitored battery voltage on start up, replaced a perfectly good battery with a larger one anyway, R&R'd the cluster repeatedly and have come to this conclusion: there is a temperature sensitive component in the cluster which becomes marginal with age. Below +/- 40 deg. F the cluster resets on start-up, below +/- 30 deg. F the cluster resets with just the switching 'on' of the ignition-prior to any start command. At these lower temps when I first enter the car the displays are normal with correct time and trip mileage. As soon as I turn the ignition 'on' the displays disappear and they will not reappear, nor will any of the analog instruments function, until the cluster is warm.
My latest experiment was to warm the cluster area with a hot air gun on a 20 deg. morning prior to any ignition or start activity. My first attempt involved about 5 minutes with an actual high temp heat gun just blown around the whole dash area; over, under, in front-everywhere. This produced correct behavior on ignition 'on' (displays remained active) but gave a reset with immediate recovery on the start command. This is decidedly improved over the complete loss of display and instruments I'd have expected at 20 deg.. My next attempt involved another +/- 20 deg. morning after an overnight cold soak and leaving a 1500 watt hair dryer running under the dash (on the floor pointed upward) for 10 minutes or so. This produced completely normal cluster behavior.
Now I suppose this has simply confirmed what we already knew-the cluster resets in the cold and works in warmer temps but I am further convinced that the critical area is in the cluster itself. No other area of the car was warmed in my experiments. Component level technicians use temperature extremes (freon gas or hot air) to locate marginal or troublesome parts and I'm convinced that this sort of temperature sensitivity is what we are seeing with these cluster issues.
Next step? Expose the cluster components by removing the large instrument faces and individually freeze them until I find the one that changes the cluster behavior.
Stay tuned...
 

TonyJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
tripl-e, that sounds like a cold solder joint. Possibly at the voltage regulator.

If you can, pull the cluster out and look over ALL solder joints, but the regulator and any soldered grounds should be really scrutinized, possibly with an eye loupe or microscope if possible.

Tony
 

turnmybassup

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Location
Abilene, TX
TDI
2001 Golf GLS
what is happening to mine is identical to what is happening to tripl-e. Most of the time mine has reset on "key on" not even starting. Also, I too have cleaned all the grounds now (got the other ones in the engine compartment) and even added additional grounds from the battery to the frame, and it still does it.
I'm now testing the distance it takes each morning for the cluster to reset, though it's hard to reproduce identical weather and hvac situations.
Regardless, I think that there is just a poor solder point located in the cluster somewhere, and while it would be nice to know where or what cuases it, I don't know that I'm ready to dive into it myself. I made it work on my mk3, maybe the b4 won't be that different?
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
TonyJetta, my first suspicion was a fractured solder joint too, these cars do buzz some, but the behavior has been perfectly consistent over a period of years and I wonder whether or not something mechanical like that would be so repeatable. Nonetheless a broken solder joint or trace is where I'll start the search. My second guess is an electrolytic capacitor gone south like Weedeater suggests. I had a bad one in my BMW (M5 powered 525 touring) that would shut the cluster off on hot days. NO PROBLEM! Drive the BMW in the winter and the oiler in the summer! Not!!! Incidentally I looked at TonyJetta's project car stuff and I laughed at the brake bleeding comments. I actually had to use a small twist drill and unclog the bleeder ports before I could get any fluid through the calipers. Does anyone change brakefluid on a regular basis? Apparently not.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep y'all posted.
 

TonyJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
tripl-e said:
Incidentally I looked at TonyJetta's project car stuff and I laughed at the brake bleeding comments. I actually had to use a small twist drill and unclog the bleeder ports before I could get any fluid through the calipers. Does anyone change brakefluid on a regular basis? Apparently not.
Yeah...this car WAS the epitome of the throw-away mindset. It's a shame that people actually think that way.

Tony
 

jck66

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 4, 2001
Location
Greenwich, CT, USA
TDI
12 Passat SE / 14 BMW 535d
FWIW, I had issues with a Walcrap battery a few years back. My original battery lasted five or six years before it needed to be replaced, and I thought I was clever by buying a cheap one at WM. But the WM battery only made it through 1.5 winters (and I live in a mild weather part of CT). Since I put the Optima in I have had no problems.
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
Success!! (maybe)

:) I disassembled the cluster as described in the TDI MFA article. Froze components with freon and warmed them with a hair dryer blowing through a funnel (to get a narrow stream of warm air) and found a capacitor in the upper right hand corner of the cluster that would quickly turn the displays on or off depending on whether it was hot or cold. Its item # C111 is printed on the circuit board but is hidden by the cap when it is in place. It is a 470uF, 25V electrolytic. When I removed it I could see that it had been leaking oil and looked generally crummy underneath.



With a new cap in place the cluster has been fully functional after an overnite soak in +15F weather. This is a short term report and I'll follow up after a week or so when it has been in daily service for a while.
 
Last edited:

michTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2000
Location
Charlotte, MI, USA
TDI
2003 Jetta and 2015 GSW MT
"Froze components with freon and warmed them with a hair dryer blowing through a funnel (to get a narrow stream of warm air)"

well thats pretty darn impressive-a scientific/experimental approach to try and figure out what is going on........

sounds to me like you found the problem.........

It always amazes me as to how often it comes down to something relatively simple (a 3 dollar capacitor???) and yet how difficult/time-consuming it sometimes is to finally figure that out.....

lets face it-I love TDI's (and have three of them) but the electrical/electronics systems are the "weakest link" in these cars.......(ok well the 2nd weakest link-actual weakest link would be VW dealers)......

You've heard of the "Darwin Awards"-I nominate triple-e for the exact opposite (the Einstein Awards maybe?)!!!!!!!!

impressive........
 

turnmybassup

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Location
Abilene, TX
TDI
2001 Golf GLS
amazing, simply amazing. in theory I thought I might get that far some day, but I knew I never would. Now with your insights I may make a trip to shack de radio tomorrow and try to fix my cluster! Thanks man
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
Thanks for the kind words. Before y'all run out and buy capacitors though maybe a little longer test interval of my 'maybe' success is in order. I'll be sure to let you know how things progress but for now my advise is 'stay tuned'
 

schultp

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Location
Michigan
TDI
2010 Jetta Sportwagen, 6sp manual
This is a great piece of investigative work! I just was in my garage cleaning grounds and came back in to find your latest posting. My cluster only blanks out when I have to do a bit more cold cranking.

You refer to a posting on how to remove the instrument cluster....do you have the link?

TIA,

Paul.
 

turnmybassup

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Location
Abilene, TX
TDI
2001 Golf GLS
yeah, I will be waiting to see what comes over time for yours, it's warm enough in texas now I don't need to worry about it currently. I'll be watching the progress closely though
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
The article I referenced describes the basic removal and disassembly/reassembly of the cluster in the course of adding a multi-function display and functionality to a TDI and is available on this site's home page under the 'articles' banner.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=101455 this is the URL for the ariticle page.
After a couple of days of cold weather and repeated cold starts the cluster remains fully functional. :>)
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
Success

After 9 days of cold weather with outdoor parking the instrument cluster remains fully functional. This is looking like a proper fix!:D

$0.52 for a capacitor, countless hours studying the Bentleys, and enough practice to R&R the cluster in total darkness with numb hands but I may have actually won this one!
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
Wow. A $.52 fix. Assuming your time is worth $.00. Unless you can utilize the hard-won education in making someone else's life easier.
 

ChubsAuto

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Location
Central Illinois
TDI
2005 TDI Passat, 2003 Jetta Sedan
Replacing that cap worked like a charm on mine, after removing it I measured it on my cap tester and it was over a 100 uf below spec at room temp so when cold Im sure it was really really out of spec. Thanks for your efforts finding this and posting it, made my life much easier.
 

dauber

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2002
Location
Fresno
I just want to thank Tripl-e for this fix. I have had this problem for awhile and finally fixed it with your write-up. Total cost was $3.20 for my Cap.
 

nh nam vet

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Location
Raymond, NH
TDI
2- 97 Passats , 02 Jetta
I know I'm reviving an older thread but when my trip odometer and digital clock reset when I turned the key with below freezing temps and all cluster gauges stopped working below 10 degrees F inside the car late night after work, and didn't come back to life until there was heat in the cabin, my irritation was raising my blood pressure. After changing out the ignition switch (Visegrips on the collar worked for me) and relay 109 without success, I considered this procedure a last resort. I didn't want to wait too long to swap out the expiring capacitor or else I'd have to pay someone to pull the 44 pin Elmos 10417A stepper motor driver/voltage regulator chip.

I used Chris Bell's MFA conversion thread and Lug Nut's thread(http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2659276&postcount=3) to pull everything around the cluster. Note that: 1) the headlight knob and dimmer assembly can be left hanging down to the left and 2) the entire cluster surround trim pulls forward and rotates clockwise away to right out of the way still tethered by the coupled OBD connection.

I found that pulling the four gauge needles is best done by pushing down on the faceplate with one thumb (which help keeps the servo motor casings intact and in position in their plastic shroud) and using the other hand to pull the gauge needle. Also, getting the printed circuit card out of the plastic housing is most easily done by having the card down/plastic housing up and simply releasing the 7 tabs so that the PC card simply drops out.

Pulling the capacitor is easliy accomplished by grabbing the cap with Visegrips and heating each lead, one at a time and tugging it through the PC board. Once out, you will see the "C111" silk screen on the board, but more importantly, you will also see the "+" sign. Since the capacitor's wire lead holes were now obscure, I heated up each hole and then inserted a right angle pick and swiveled it around to create the opening for the new cap. Although I haven't done any component-level R&R on a PC board in a long time, I was glad to see that this capacitor has a shrink-wrapped cover and a visible "-" (minus sign) to ensure correct insertion orientation. Inserting the cap, soldering the leads and snipping off the excess completes the PC card surgery.

A final note: take time and care to correctly home your gauges to the lowest white hash mark on the faceplate. I wound up pulling, installing and rotating the needles more than once for correct positioning. Changing the 470uF capacitor was easiest part of this job. Kudos once more, tripl-e.
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
Glad my efforts have been helpful to others. That's what makes this place such a great resource. I've saved 10 times the time and effort in this fix by taking advantage of the efforts of others who have bothered to post here.

If you've got a fix-post it. It'll probably help someone else some day.
 

dnoojin

New member
Joined
Mar 12, 2011
Location
alpharetta ga
TDI
2011 tdi golf 4dr
Tried to start my 2011 Golf TDI and all lights were flashing and a clicking noise fast was going on. What could be the problem.
 

kzoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Austin
TDI
97 A3 Jetta 1.9 TDI, and 6 Volvo's!
Sorry to bump an old thread...

It looks like I just lost my cluster along these lines... Worked fine when warm, resets displays and no gauges when cold.

Has anyone had a vendor successfully repair these MkIII clusters? I'd like to get it out ans sent out ASAP so I'm not stuck driving the Passat for too long...

Thanks-

Kerry
 

TonyJetta

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
TDI
'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
Search by my moniker, and chubs auto or derek white.

Tony
Sent from my e-diesel fleet
 

kzoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Location
Austin
TDI
97 A3 Jetta 1.9 TDI, and 6 Volvo's!
Spoke with Derek a bit earlier today...

Hope to get it out of the car and packaged to ship tomorrow.

Thanks everyone!
 

206danebmx

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Location
Seattle, WA
TDI
2002 jetta TDI wagon
Reviving this one.

I have a very similar issue, but mine happens only when the interior is warmer, roughly above 75F inside.

I get what I call a "reset" when I crank over the engine. It never happens with just ignition on, but once you crank over it starts and all the gauges don't work momentarily and the trip odometer resets itself.

About 2-3 seconds later everything works fine.

Do you guys think this is the same capacitor issue?

I put in a brand new battery recently and nothing changed and have examined the suspect grounds too. The prior owner replaced the ignition switch within the last couple years as well.

Thanks for your help!
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
I had a similar over temp failure of a capacitor in my BMW touring. I'd have no tach/speedo when the cabin got summertime hot. I don't see why the VW panel couldn't fail in a similar fashion.
 
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