Timing belt/Valve issue: I need some guru advice

[PDJetta]

This is the problem: If the valves contacted the pistons when the engine was run, either by not having the valve timing set properly (mark and pray method instead of using the proper timing belt tools) or if the tensioner was not tightened properly and the valve timing changed, there is a very high likelihood one of more valves got bent slightly when contacting the piston(s). If the valve timing is simply reset, or if the cylinder head is removed to inspect damage and all appears fine (and it usually will) and reinstalled, at some later time (perhaps 10,000 miles later) a valve head will separate from it's valve stem and this will completely total the engine (as in a non-repairable cylinder head and a hole through a piston) and may take out the turbocharger as well from metal chunks passing into the exhaust manifold. Once a valve is bent slightly, it lands on the valve seat cocked a little and over the millions of cycles of doing this the metal fatigues and the valve head separates from the stem and gets jammed by the piston as it nears TDC.

What needs to be done is the cylinder head removed and the valves removed and closely examined for straightness. You might as well have the head overhauled at the same time since it is off.

If the same shop removes the head they could cause all sorts of issues. They probably do not have these:

http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1262

Which means they can't properly install these:

http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=449

They probably did not replace the engine mount bolts either.

The other thing is the shop proved their incompetence already and when removing a cylinder head if not careful, you can damage the engine and it may not be apparent right away. If the coolant is not drained from the the block (there is no drain for it, so either an oil cooler hose, thermostat, or water pump must be removed), coolant will flood the cylinders when the head is pulled. This is pretty damaging, especially if the oil is not changed and the engine started. Also, do you trust they will replace the cylinder head bolts, like they are supposed to?

Cut your losses while you can and after having one of the TDI Gurus fix it, attempt to recoup your damages from the first shop.

--Nate

 

[PDJetta]

the best part about this is i am an ASE certified mechanic and I usually do all the work to my cars myself but because this is my first TDI and i have never done a VW TB and dont have the tools, I figured id pay to have it done because the TDI was my daily driver and I didnt want to screw it up and i figured if the mechanic screwed it up theyd have to fix it.....hmmmm....maybe i should invest in those TB tools....

I don't think you could have done any worse without the tools.

Since you revealed this, you should buy the tools and the Bentley manual (or use the "how to on this list") and fix it properly. You have the skills. Send the cylinder head to Franko6 on this list. He is a professional cylinder head rebuilder and specializes in TDIs. I can personally attest that his work is impeccable and very reasonably priced.

Edit: I read the entire thread and see my description of the horrors that could occur, did occur. Please take my advice: Go get your car from the shop and later figure out if you want to seek compensation from the owner. In the meantime, contact Franko6. If your head is not rebuildable, he can get you a rebuilt one. He stocks them I believe. Then figure out what to do about the engine. IIRC the pistons are matched in twos, so installing one new or used one is a bad idea. These engines are not like older American gasoline automotive engines, which is probably what the shop possibly could work on. I would not even trust them to bore the block to the proper tolerances for the TDI.

Sorry this happened. Unfortunately, I have read many such stories, just like this, on the list. Many repair shops just do not know how to maintain and repair TDIs. This includes the VW dealers too.

--Nate

 

[paramedick]

these guys are known for doing quality work and taking care of their customers and Im pretty happy with their solution so far that Im just gonna stick it out with them.

If it is the shop with "performance", or is it "tuning" in their name, I've been seeing a bit of their messes lately. Or perhaps the good physician?

 

[Abacus]

Wow, sorry to hear about this.

Definitely get the engine away from them. If not, you'll be questioning it every minute it's running.

It sounds like you are more than competent to do the work, and you can always borrow or rent the TB tools, and the writeup on here is more easily followed than the manual, but the manual is never a bad thing to have.

I am running a Franko6 refurbished head and would go the same route in a minute if I had to do it again.

Good luck.

 

[migbro]

...... I was a little leery about throwing a rebuilt head on there so he was willing to put a brand new one on for 600$. I still owe him an answer on the head any thoughts...rebuilt for free or new for 600? As far as taking it to another shop, without mentioning the shops name, these guys are known for doing quality work and taking care of their customers and Im pretty happy with their solution so far that Im just gonna stick it out with them.

$600 for a new cylinder head? Your shop is going to install one of these: Hans Auto Parts. A Chinese head that will make you wish you'd fixed it right. The fact that they think this is a good idea is enough for you to get your car back and take it somewhere else.

 

[Genesis]

Oh, "Hands" auto parts. As in Mr. Hands.

No, don't google that, but if you insist, it should explain what is likely to happen to you....

 

[njt1rider]

For anyone that was following along, I stopped by the shop to check out their work first hand. Here is what I saw:
Number 1 piston:

Head:


obvious "M&P" job


new head:


I know most of you will disagree with my decision to let this shop continue to work on my TDI but its pretty much my only option. I'm pretty sure the new head is an "AMC" but I need to verify. They said it should be done today hopefully so well see how it goes and I'll let yall know.

 

[Genesis]

Uh, yep. Obviously M&P job that went wrong.

Oh boy...

 

[oilhammer]

And I'll bet they'll do it again!

 

[hevster1]

It always amazes me how these cars seem to go to people who would probably be better off in Barber school than repairing vehicles.

 

[Abacus]

And I'll bet they'll do it again!

Of course, why would they do anything different since they obviously know what they are doing!

I am curious which way the tensioner was tensioned, I wonder if there are cracks on the back of it from them tensioning it like a gasser.

I understand the OP's rationale, but those FRESH (huge) white paint marks are undoubtedly the cause of the catastrophic MESS you're dealing with now. Are they replacing all the pistons, it looks like all of them have sustained some damage from the picture, or what is the shiny stuff all over them? Those valves are still intact. I can't make them out well enough from the picture.

And are they putting on a NEW timing belt, since that one obviously was stressed from the piston slamming apart the valves hard enough to break them?

There is no way they'd be touching my car, no matter what it cost me. Say they 'repair' it, how will you ever trust that engine again? This was such a simple job and they not only FUBAR'd it, but did so in grand fashion, and now they get to 'fix' their mistake.

I am speechless.....

 

[ymz]

And are they putting on a NEW timing belt, since that one obviously was stressed from the piston slamming apart the valves hard enough to break them?

I'd be more worried about the stress on the tensioner...

Did they bother to check the piston height while they were there?

In any case, I'd have the who job re-done ASAP... I'd bet there are at least a thousand members here who could have done the job far better...

Yuri

 

[paramedick]

Bring it over when they get done. At least we can check the static and pump timing. Won't take long to do.

Curious. The pictures look like ALL the pistons have dings on them. True?

 

[ymz]

Ding... Ding... Ding...Ding...


Boy... the dings I've learned here...


Yuri

 

[oilhammer]

This thread is kind of like looking at a major accident unfold... like, you can SEE the iceberg, you've made eye contact with the captain, but the boiler room is just shovelin' the coal in there as fast as they can, and the pilot is asleep in the corner of the wheelhouse... Oh well, let's at least hope there are enough life boats.

 

[njt1rider]

The other pistons looked ok. No dings, there were like thin metal (aluminum?) Chips on them. Some kind of debris from disassembly. Paramedik ill probably be swinging by, I generally drive through the frankfort Lexington area every weekend...oilhammer...at this point I'm just hoping to have a running vehicle and will figure out what I want to do when I get it back...

 

[cleaver]

I think as Oilhammer and a few others have stated, hopefully your vehicle when repaired lasts longer than a few thousand miles. Especially if they use the same metod of fixing and installing your timing belt as they did originally.

I would make sure that the mechanic uses the correct tools to put everything back together correctly. Currently, your mechanic does not own (or use) the correct tools.

 

[paramedick]

I saw this car today. It is reassembled, and seems to be running correctly. New AMC head, with the lift point left off. Replaced "one" piston only. Unsure what bolts were replaced (head, rod, etc.). Unsure if new tensioner.

Timing at midpoint on graph. I reset the IQ and computer timing to factory defaults. Replaced one bad vac line to turbo.

This gentleman is a soldier at Ft. Knox. No charge from me. Thanks.

The shop is Volksdoktor in Louisville.

 

[njt1rider]

Thank you Paramedik! If anyone is in the KY area, I would suggest checking out Paramedik before you blow your money at other shops...

 

[njt1rider]

A little update: I am still trying to fix this shops screw ups. I am pretty sure they reused the old head bolts and rod bolts so I'm going to redo them this weekend to be on the safe side. After that I will trust this belt to go 60k before I change it myself. I have also since purchased the metalnerd tools and changed the belt for a friend using the how to guide on here. I feel pretty dumb for how easy it was with the right tools and knowledge. If you are coming up on a TB change and are contemplating letting a shop you dont have much knowledge about do it, Please find a guru on here and have someone who knows what they are doing do it. If you are on the fence of doing it yourself, you are mechanically inclined, and can follow directions to a T; borrow the tools and do it yourself using a quality quit from ID parts or metalnerd. Its really not that hard.