schaeffers 5w40 change?

mxmotorhead24

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wi
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I know not another oil thread!!! I have searched up n down this forum n read every thread and have found frank o6 reccomended schaeffers in tdis but the last thread of reccomending that is in 2013... I have an old schaeffers jug next to a new and noticed differences.My question has schaeffers changed to the point its not great for a tdi anymore?
 

mxmotorhead24

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Location
wi
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bew
Heavy duty oil specs are not comparable to light duty oil specs:

https://www.lubrizol.com/Lubricant-...-Oil-Additives/ACEA/Relative-Performance-Tool

Having said that if it meets CK-4 you should not have any issues in my view (similar to using for example Mobil Delvac 1). I have Franko6 cam also but I am well over the three year warranty.
its just interesting how it changed from cj4 to ck4 along with some ratings/approvals l. hopefully its still got the zinc and moly
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
I know not another oil thread!!! I have searched up n down this forum n read every thread and have found frank o6 reccomended schaeffers in tdis but the last thread of reccomending that is in 2013... I have an old schaeffers jug next to a new and noticed differences.My question has schaeffers changed to the point its not great for a tdi anymore?
I switched a couple buddies to the 9000 based on Frank's recommendation when I did one of his full cam conversions. I also now run 8008 in all my MK6/MK7 TDI, I like the products am impressed by the performance (UOA's prove this) and being made in the USA right down the highway from me is kind of cool.

Anyways, I digress... When I checked their site, it "appears" that the newly formulated 9000 is better in many important ways and I'd be terribly surprised if Frank wouldn't be strongly recommending the new 9000 based on what the site shows *https://www.schaefferoil.com/full-synthetic-5w40.html.

Performance Benefits
  • Improved wear protection – 71% less wear than conventional 5W-40 CJ-4 oils.
  • High thermal and oxidative stability for greater resistance to viscosity thickening and the formation of deposits, sludge and varnish.
  • Strong soot-busting, deposit-dispersing capability – 46% greater soot handling than conventional 5W-40 CJ-4 oils.
  • Excellent shear stability for stay-in-grade performance throughout the oil drain interval.
  • Superior low volatility characteristics to control oil consumption.
  • Improved and optimized engine durability and reliability – especially for older model engines.
  • Excellent protection against oil aeration and foaming.
  • Excellent cold crank startability and low temperature pumpability.

There is also the Technical Data sheet and this looks to be the some VOA info you'd be looking for but you'd need a proper analysis to see if the old vs new has the same levels of zinc and moly. The new tech data talks about a "Micron Moly®" and "Penetro" additives and it was updated 04/2019. Maybe Bob the Oil guy has some info on the new formula but would be pretty neat to see what @Franko6 has to say on the subject. :)
 

mxmotorhead24

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i actually contacted schaeffers on this subject- Their tech states the moly is still there with the added penetro and the zinc content is the same range as before. They claim the oil has been made better than it was before and more improvements. Hopefully i can send some oil in next change for a voa as im still curious to see.
 

Franko6

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Location
Sw Missouri
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Jetta, 99, Silver`
I have been asked about the new oil, and quite honestly, my initial impression was, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But truthfully, the CK-4 oil is the latest/ greatest diesel oil standard for the diesel industry,. I really did have to read a lot of background subject matter. And I am in favor of the new cert. But I was also fine with the Schaeffer 9000 5-40 CJ-4, too.

Here is your reality check... They have been using the new formula for the last 2 years, but couldn't actually print it on the label until the certification was complete.

That may sound like putting the cart before the horse, but the largest improvement, in my opinion, is the increased soot saturation point.
That to me means that the oil's can survive longer intervals, because the single most common cause on oil analysis to change oil is soot saturation. Once the oil cannot absorb any more soot, it's time to change.

Understanding the mentality of the common TDI driver, it's actually somewhat of a stretch to get them to hold to a 10,000 mile oil change. If the customer actually were to use oil analysis to judge a proper oil change interval, I think many would simply freak out. I actually think a 12-15,000 interval is not unreasonable if considering the CJ-4 rating and now, the soot saturation point has been raised, I don't think it will make any difference, because the customer won't 'take the chance' that engine damage can happen. The big trucking companies always change oil based on oil analysis. They use the oil to its potential. Even I, myself, tend to stick to a 10,000 mile oil change, only because it's easy to see on the odometer. I don't have to make another log. And few people can do a Schaeffer's oil change cheaper that me!

So, The reason I've not been verbal is it really doesn't matter whether you got the older CJ-4 oil or you can find the bottle with the CK-4 rating. For the last two years, the new formula, with the same old label was in the bottle. Now that the certs have been approved, all new bottles will show the CK-4 rating. There appears to be no difference in pricing.

Btw: To give you an idea how this certification process works, it's a bit ugly. As an example, the transmission oil Schaeffer's has for a well-known Allison transmission, they couldn't even get to the table to talk, UNTIL... they made a 'little payment'... and that's the way it works... sometimes you have to 'grease the skids'. They finally got their approval after 5 years of attempts.

Another little game just about made Schaeffer's quit selling their oil in California. The size of the printing for the oil weight was not to California Standard. Schaeffer's was subject to a fine for not knowing that. I'm not sure if the fine got waived, but the new bottles have the larger print. It's that kind of ignorant stuff big business has to put up with..

If you want to play with the big boys, you have to play the game. It's big money in a lucrative market.
 

CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT
All the major oil manufacturers claimed a reduction in wear with their new Synthetic CK-4 formulas EXCEPT Mobil Delvac ESP. I believe the new D1 is actually a downgraded product made with cheaper base oils and inferior to the CJ-4 version.

The claims by Shaeffer are misleading as well. A synthetic oil will always have lower wear and better soot control than “conventional 5w40 CJ-4 oils”. What conventional 5w40 are they comparing it too?


  • Improved and optimized engine durability and reliability – especially for older model engines.
W.T.F. s this ^^^ ?

In all the UOAs I’ve seen in light duty diesels using the CJ-4 and CK-4 formulas, the limiting factor for oil change frequency is alkalinity depletion, not soot loading. When you approach 12k-15k miles the base number drops to the point where it would need to be changed anyway, while soot % would be low enough to not be a contributing factor.


I switched a couple buddies to the 9000 based on Frank's recommendation when I did one of his full cam conversions. I also now run 8008 in all my MK6/MK7 TDI, I like the products am impressed by the performance (UOA's prove this) and being made in the USA right down the highway from me is kind of cool.

Anyways, I digress... When I checked their site, it "appears" that the newly formulated 9000 is better in many important ways and I'd be terribly surprised if Frank wouldn't be strongly recommending the new 9000 based on what the site shows *https://www.schaefferoil.com/full-synthetic-5w40.html.

Performance Benefits
  • Improved wear protection – 71% less wear than conventional 5W-40 CJ-4 oils.
  • High thermal and oxidative stability for greater resistance to viscosity thickening and the formation of deposits, sludge and varnish.
  • Strong soot-busting, deposit-dispersing capability – 46% greater soot handling than conventional 5W-40 CJ-4 oils.
  • Excellent shear stability for stay-in-grade performance throughout the oil drain interval.
  • Superior low volatility characteristics to control oil consumption.
  • Improved and optimized engine durability and reliability – especially for older model engines.
  • Excellent protection against oil aeration and foaming.
  • Excellent cold crank startability and low temperature pumpability.

There is also the Technical Data sheet and this looks to be the some VOA info you'd be looking for but you'd need a proper analysis to see if the old vs new has the same levels of zinc and moly. The new tech data talks about a "Micron Moly®" and "Penetro" additives and it was updated 04/2019. Maybe Bob the Oil guy has some info on the new formula but would be pretty neat to see what @Franko6 has to say on the subject. :)
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The "recommended for" and "meets AND/OR exceeds" phrases are the ones I like, LOL.

What I find somewhat interesting is that I am a native St. Louisan.... born and raised, and while I wisely moved to the outlying rural area to hang my hat, I still work in the suburbs of the area. I know this area very well. And I had never even heard of this company until a few years ago when Frank had mentioned them to me. Curious.

And "Penetro" sounds like a pornographic super hero name, doesn't it? :D

I have no experience with this product, but I do know that it is an easier (and safer) bet to be able to show a customer the specification in their car's technical manual (and in some cases, the tag under the hood) and show them the same thing on the lubricant container so there is no question. It limits any liability, too. FWIW, the MB 229.51 spec seems to be the toughest to meet. Meet. Not "exceed". Exceed is misleading, and is lawyer-speak for "not meeting".
 
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Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
i would not use it in my 2012 TDI be carefull! that oil don't meet 507.00 spec
I think he has a BEW from his profile and also if he has an old jug of 9000 on hand already. Definitely not for DPF cars, definitely not 507.00 spec.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Here is a bit of information for you Common Rail owners....

The DPF is such a problem all by itself, I'd agree, you don't want to increase any ash from fuel or oil to add to the problem. If you have to get the 507.00 oil, it is available with Schaeffer's. However, the 507.00 oil has less of the sacrificial elements in it. As the common rail engine is not an overhead cam, the sacrificial elements are not necessary, but it won't hurt the oil if it continued to be in there. The main 'improvement' for the 507.00 oil is Low Ash. If not using a low ash oil, that will clog the DPF, eventually. But all the Schaeffer 9000 series oils are low ash, including the 505.01 and the 507.00 oils. So, that becomes a moot point.

The only other issue with the 507.00 is the viscosity, which is 5-30. The thinner oil is not to benefit engine life expectancy, but to meet fuel economy standards. The Common Rail engines, which are very similar design to the TDI's VW has been building since 1996, end up wearing the cylinder walls smooth prematurely. The temperature gauge goes to 240 degrees. The 'normal' operating temp is 210. So you understand, we have installed heat tabs on all of our cylinder heads and blocks from the very first years we did business. The tab is a 230 degree lead melt-out tab. That is where your warranty ends, because the block and cylinder head will warp above those temperatures. Quite simply, we think increased fuel economy for reduced life expectancy is not a good trade-off.

So, based on our inspections and assessments, we think the heavier weight 5-40 is the 'right stuff'. Even though it will not meet the required 507.00 rating, it must be understood that the CAFE standards were requiring the improved mileage averages. Making the engine run too hot and making the oil thinner will accomplish this. As long as you don't mind your cylinder head and block warping and your rings and block wearing out prematurely, continue as you have been doing.

I know we aren't and actually never have been dogmatic and ones to follow the teutonic chant to conform. I think that is probably fairly well-known about us. When you end up seeing the disasters and look at the poor consequences, it's relatively easy to revert to a more classical perspective. The change in oil and lowered temperature will undoubtedly reduce fuel economy. I am all in favor of the overall life expectancy improving over a small reduction in fuel economy.

There is one caveat. As long as the vehicle is under warranty, I do not recommend doing anything to void the factory warranty. Once you are beyond that, there are several changes other than the thermostat and oil I would suggest.

As for the 'pornographic' Penetro, I am curious what it's doing in the oil. The name Penetro is Schaeffer's name for their penetrating oil. I find it interesting they would include a percentage of penetrating oil in their formula.
 

CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT
Here is a bit of information for you Common Rail owners....

The DPF is such a problem all by itself, I'd agree, you don't want to increase any ash from fuel or oil to add to the problem. If you have to get the 507.00 oil, it is available with Schaeffer's. However, the 507.00 oil has less of the sacrificial elements in it. As the common rail engine is not an overhead cam, the sacrificial elements are not necessary, but it won't hurt the oil if it continued to be in there. The main 'improvement' for the 507.00 oil is Low Ash. If not using a low ash oil, that will clog the DPF, eventually. But all the Schaeffer 9000 series oils are low ash, including the 505.01 and the 507.00 oils. So, that becomes a moot point.

The only other issue with the 507.00 is the viscosity, which is 5-30. The thinner oil is not to benefit engine life expectancy, but to meet fuel economy standards. The Common Rail engines, which are very similar design to the TDI's VW has been building since 1996, end up wearing the cylinder walls smooth prematurely. The temperature gauge goes to 240 degrees. The 'normal' operating temp is 210. So you understand, we have installed heat tabs on all of our cylinder heads and blocks from the very first years we did business. The tab is a 230 degree lead melt-out tab. That is where your warranty ends, because the block and cylinder head will warp above those temperatures. Quite simply, we think increased fuel economy for reduced life expectancy is not a good trade-off.

So, based on our inspections and assessments, we think the heavier weight 5-40 is the 'right stuff'. Even though it will not meet the required 507.00 rating, it must be understood that the CAFE standards were requiring the improved mileage averages. Making the engine run too hot and making the oil thinner will accomplish this. As long as you don't mind your cylinder head and block warping and your rings and block wearing out prematurely, continue as you have been doing.

I know we aren't and actually never have been dogmatic and ones to follow the teutonic chant to conform. I think that is probably fairly well-known about us. When you end up seeing the disasters and look at the poor consequences, it's relatively easy to revert to a more classical perspective. The change in oil and lowered temperature will undoubtedly reduce fuel economy. I am all in favor of the overall life expectancy improving over a small reduction in fuel economy.

There is one caveat. As long as the vehicle is under warranty, I do not recommend doing anything to void the factory warranty. Once you are beyond that, there are several changes other than the thermostat and oil I would suggest.

As for the 'pornographic' Penetro, I am curious what it's doing in the oil. The name Penetro is Schaeffer's name for their penetrating oil. I find it interesting they would include a percentage of penetrating oil in their formula.
All jokes aside, the lowest wear profile recorded on pre-DPF TDIs was with Mobil 1 TDT 5w40. It’s cheap and Mobil doesn’t use phony or misleading statements to sell it. It’s a great profuct and the speak for themselves.

Increasing oil ash from 0.6% to 1.0% in a car that doesn’t use oil is also insignifivcant. Any CCV oil vapor carried into the combustion chamber doesn’t contain additives as they don’t evaporate. The ash comes from the fuel, based on the 0.010% ASTM standard for ULSD. Its basic math. If you really want the DPF to last use R99 as it has 1/10 the ash of ULSD.

 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I have always said, if you want to start a fight, talk about oil...

I totally disagree with you on the Mobile 1, as we have had some spectacular failures with that oil, unlike anything we have experienced with Schaeffer's. The incidents we were involved with had most particularly to do with warmer climates in Southern states, where the ambient temperatures were exceeding 90 degrees. I believe it is due to insufficient viscosity which caused galling of the #4 piston. It was always the #4. There were 6 engines during a very hot Dallas Summer, when all this occurred. All of the engines we were acquainted with were actually over-kill oil changes and the only common denominator for engine failure was Mobile One 5-40. Would it happen with the 5-30? In my opinion, it's virtually the same engine, with now, even thinner oil. Sure, why not? That has NEVER happened with Schaeffer's or many other oils I have tracked.

I am not the only one that feels that way about putting Mobile One into a TDI. In my opinion, Mobile One does it's own phoney-baloney when they paid companies like Mercedes Benz a $1,000,000 to put a sticker under the hood of cars for about 4 years. There is a reason they don't do that anymore. Mobile One's television advertisement budget is huge to advance their oil with pretty cars going fast, etc. When you buy that oil, you are paying for that advertising budget. The cost of advertising is built into the cost of the oil, so, you are still entitled to your opinion, but spending that money requires taking something out of the oil to make the budget work. What gets me, there are companies that not only I, but hundreds of VW mechanics I have polled will not use, for example, Castrol, oils that VW has recommended. I wonder how they got a certificate for an oil that does not rate.

And here is what I KNOW happens, because it happened to Schaeffer's. They wanted to get into the gear oil market for the Allison transmissions, like those in the Cummins engines. Year after year, they made request to get their gear oil certified. The certifying company wouldn't even talk to them. Then, the right size check was sent to the right people... a sizable one... and they got their gear oil certified. That is the way it works. Manipulation in the oil market is nothing new. Sometimes, you just have to grease the skids.

Past that, you appear to completely overlook the bigger issue; the overheating of an engine and thinning of the engine oil to force additional fuel economy are, in my opinion, very big mistakes and will take away from the overall life expectancy of the common rail diesel motors. You should consider that as important information.

Your one advantage, you are in Northern climes where the ambient temp is considerably more temperate. That is to your advantage. My recommendations have to cover my operating area, which includes about every temperature zone.

Good luck with Mobile One.
 
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CleverUserName

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Location
NorCal
TDI
2014 OZ Cruze CTD & 2010 JSW 6MT
I have always said, if you want to start a fight, talk about oil...

I totally disagree with you on the Mobile 1, as we have had some spectacular failures with that oil, unlike anything we have experienced with Schaeffer's. The incidents we were involved with had most particularly to do with warmer climates in Southern states, where the ambient temperatures were exceeding 90 degrees. I believe it is due to insufficient viscosity which caused galling of the #4 piston. It was always the #4. There were 6 engines during a very hot Dallas Summer, when all this occurred. All of the engines we were acquainted with were actually over-kill oil changes and the only common denominator for engine failure was Mobile One 5-40. Would it happen with the 5-30? In my opinion, it's virtually the same engine, with now, even thinner oil. Sure, why not? That has NEVER happened with Schaeffer's or many other oils I have tracked.

I am not the only one that feels that way about putting Mobile One into a TDI. In my opinion, Mobile One does it's own phoney-baloney when they paid companies like Mercedes Benz a $1,000,000 to put a sticker under the hood of cars for about 4 years. There is a reason they don't do that anymore. Mobile One's television advertisement budget is huge to advance their oil with pretty cars going fast, etc. When you buy that oil, you are paying for that advertising budget. The cost of advertising is built into the cost of the oil, so, you are still entitled to your opinion, but spending that money requires taking something out of the oil to make the budget work. What gets me, there are companies that not only I, but hundreds of VW mechanics I have polled will not use, for example, Castrol, oils that VW has recommended. I wonder how they got a certificate for an oil that does not rate.

And here is what I KNOW happens, because it happened to Schaeffer's. They wanted to get into the gear oil market for the Allison transmissions, like those in the Cummins engines. Year after year, they made request to get their gear oil certified. The certifying company wouldn't even talk to them. Then, the right size check was sent to the right people... a sizable one... and they got their gear oil certified. That is the way it works. Manipulation in the oil market is nothing new. Sometimes, you just have to grease the skids.

Past that, you appear to completely overlook the bigger issue; the overheating of an engine and thinning of the engine oil to force additional fuel economy are, in my opinion, very big mistakes and will take away from the overall life expectancy of the common rail diesel motors. You should consider that as important information.

Your one advantage, you are in Northern climes where the ambient temp is considerably more temperate. That is to your advantage. My recommendations have to cover my operating area, which includes about every temperature zone.

Good luck with Mobile One.
It’s Mobil not Mobile. Mobile is in Alabama.

The statistical significance of multiple UOA reports of Mobil 1 TDT speak for themselves. I’m referring to the previous CJ-4 formula which is what the data is based on. You can also include the previous versions of Delvac ESP which had the same additive profile, but featured better base oils. Just like the new Shaeffer's formula, the newer versions of both Mobil oils may be different due to CK-4 changes. Time will tell.

On my Sportwagen TDI I have live OBD II monitoring of my coolant temperature, EGTs, and boost through digital gauges on my Pioneer receiver. My car is a "Fixed" 2010 and never see coolant temps over 190 degrees. They are typically 170-190 degrees. I do use thicker oil in the 2.0 because I've personally seen the extra iron these engines shed, however I think wear caused by the regen cycle. FYI I live in the valley and it's hot here, we have many days over 100+ degrees in the summer months.

I do appreciate your comments, and field experience however they are anecdotal and don’t match the results many others have seen including myself with Mobil 1 TDT and Delvac ESP.

When I sold my '03 ALH Golf to my dad, I included 3 gallons of Mobil 1 TDT as I knew this would be the best thing for the car going into the future.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Oh good grief.. a typo. You can call it anecdotal. I call it EXPERIENCE.

We at least agree on two issues. Don't run the thinner 5-30. Don't run the engine water temps too hot.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Your own typo..." It's a great profuct..." That in my opinion, says the way I and many mechanics I know feel about MO'BILE oil.

I was using the Schaeffer's oil based on local recommendations, and that was before I saw any marketing. Forget what they say. See what it does. That is how we do it in the 'Show Me' State.
 
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