Noise from ALH injection pump - replacement questions

[mrfiat]

Hello,

My 2003 Jetta sedan is making a ticking/licking noise when running and my research indicates that it fail sometime in the near future. I have at 10 mm pump on the car now and a KermaTDI tune on it (with bigger injectors). I have a 11 mm pump that I pulled from the junkyard a few years back that I plan to replace it with. I have all the openings sealed on the 11 mm pump.

1. Will the 11 mm pump cause any issues with the KermaTDI tune? I figured it will just have more power, but not sure.
2. I have a pump seal kit that I plan to install tomorrow. Which if any seals should I replace? No way to know if the pump leaks
since it has been sitting for so long.

Thanks!

 

[krook]

1. Your pump voltage map will be off no matter what anyone says. Just setting IQ by hammering the HDK is not going to solve it. A 11mm pump requires a different pump voltage map than a 10mm one, so it's in your best interest to get a re-tune with the pump voltage map adjusted. A decalibrated pump voltage map means the car isn't fueling the amount it thinks it does. This can lead to stuttering, excessive smoke, etc.

2. Pumps sitting for long tend to stick their internal feed pump which may result in it delivering no fuel at all. You better contact an expert and have them bench-test your pump and clean the feed pump if necessary. They'll usually replace the seals in the process since the pump is taken apart and cleaned before throwing it on the bench.

To answer your question though, the seal under the HDK is the easiest to replace and usually it's the one that fails first.

 

[mrfiat]

Thanks. I will see if I can find anyone in Albuquerque that can bench test my pump. I will call a couple of diesel repair places and the local VW shop.

 

[Genesis]

While its a ways from you DFIS is widely recommended as "the" place to have these pumps overhauled. I had mine done a number of years ago and it came back looking and working like it was literally new-in-box. Still on the car and still working perfectly well.

 

[KrashDH]

You can overhaul these pumps yourself as well so long as you have a bit of mechanical aptitude, cleanliness and organization. They're not rocket science. Could save you a lot of money

I'll leave this here:

IP Pump Tear Down and Seal Replacement, Bench DIY

Since I have been upgrading a lot of parts lately on the Golf for power, it was apparent that I was going to need to swap my manual's 10mm pump from an 11mm. A new pump was out of the question for me with the laundry list of other things I have been purchasing for the car, so I had to seek out a...

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[Genesis]

True that. Cleanliness is godliness when it comes to internals in an engine generally, and that's multiplied about 100x when you're working on items like these.

 

[mrfiat]

I've rebuilt multiple engines, so I think I should be able to handle an injection pump. Is there a tutorial online showing how to check the internal feed pump? I'm familiar with DFIS, but I don't have the time to wait for them to rebuild the pump, since I need to take a long road trip in the car in 3.5 weeks.

 

[Genesis]

Krash posted the link to the teardown, cleaning and such (which he did successfully and thus proved correct.) The only real gating factor is if you find unacceptable levels of wear, need parts and can't get them.

 

[mrfiat]

Thanks for pointing that out. I was busy looking for places to test my pump and missed that. Hans sells rebuilt 11 mm pumps for $400, but they are at least a week out on having one ready.

 

[mrfiat]

I will get KermaTDI to send me a new flash tune for my car for the 11 mm pump as recommended.

 

[Genesis]

I suggest you look into said "Hans"....

 

[mrfiat]

I have read some negative reviews about them... I called the local VW place and they said no one in town can bench test the pump. They just replace them if there is a problem.

 

[KrashDH]

Krash posted the link to the teardown, cleaning and such (which he did successfully and thus proved correct.) The only real gating factor is if you find unacceptable levels of wear, need parts and can't get them.

This is correct. The thing is, DFIS can sell you parts if you need. There's a few critical stack up tolerances though that need to match that of your original pump which include the small shim, which would potentially need to vary thickness to make up for any wear. It may not need to as well, it's all dependent on how everything measures out or if you even need to replace anything at all

 

[mrfiat]

A full timing belt job was done on my car 5.5 years ago and it has 25,000 miles on the pump. I don't think it needs a timing belt job. What does everyone else think? I was thinking of just replacing the belt since I will have it off to replace the pump.

 

[KrashDH]

A full timing belt job was done on my car 5.5 years ago and it has 25,000 miles on the pump. I don't think it needs a timing belt job. What does everyone else think? I was thinking of just replacing the belt since I will have it off to replace the pump.

If you have to ask, it means you are unsure. If you are unsure, just do the TB job for peace of mind. TB's kits are much cheaper than an entire head job.
Were you the last person to do the TB? It doesn't matter how many miles are on the pump. How many miles are on the TB? Has the car been sitting or regularly driven?

 

[mrfiat]

Sorry, I meant 25,000 miles on the timing belt job. It was done by a shop in Phoenix by the PO. The car has been sitting part of the time. As of right now, it has been sitting for 1.5 years.

 

[KrashDH]

Sorry, I meant 25,000 miles on the timing belt job. It was done by a shop in Phoenix by the PO. The car has been sitting part of the time. As of right now, it has been sitting for 1.5 years.

In that case I wouldn't trust it. A sitting car that is not regularly driven is almost worse than using it for all that time. Seals and anything rubber tend to dry up when you don't have fluids moving through it. Rollers can start to rust on the shafts increasing the resistance, this can be prone to fail. waterpump seals can start to leak. If it was me, I'd be putting a new TB kit on it. Remove the pump while you're doing it. If you're confident in your work, re-build it on the bench. You can at least tear it down and look at everything. I did that with the first 11mm pump I purchased as a "running, good condition pump". When I got in there, multiple parts were damaged. There was no way I would trust it in that condition on a car I just put a bunch of money into, so it became a paperweight.

 

[mrfiat]

Thanks. The car has been garaged the entire time and it is super dry in NM, so I wouldn't think rust would be an issue. The car start right up and runs perfect except for the noise from the injection pump.

 

[mrfiat]

I called DFIS and they had one rebuilt 11 mm on the shelf so I ordered that to be safe. I will just use mine as a core. I will do the whole timing belt job on the car too just to be sure. Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[Nero Morg]

Dang what a lucky find, how much did they charge for that bad boy?

 

[mrfiat]

Yes, very lucky. $1300. KermaTDI wants $1800.

 

[KrashDH]

FWIW, ticking noises from the injector pump are normal. The 11mm is especially loud. They're not silent.
I wouldn't chalk a ticking noise up to a pump that is going to implode.

Can you link from your original post the research that "shows" your pump is about to fail because of the noise?
I'm curious.

No denying that you'll be a lot happier with an 11mm pump, gives you options to expand your power band on hardware.
But I wouldn't be so quick to write off your 10mm pump.

 

[Nero Morg]

Yes, very lucky. $1300. KermaTDI wants $1800.

That's actually not a bad price, I had a pump built that had a couple of bad rollers in it, and ended up being $970 to rebuild, so a little extra for the core pump...

 

[mrfiat]

Thanks Krash, I just took the car out for a 30 minute drive and it is not making that noise currently. I have owned 3 ALH's so I know what the engine should sound like and it was making a weird ticking/clicking noise from the pump a year and half ago, but I have not driven it since. I ran both my wagon and my sedan (the sedan is the car we are talking about) and the injection pumps sound the same on both as of today. I'm taking it on a 1400 mile drive in 3 weeks so I will see if the noise comes back during that drive. The pump had a seal job done 5 years ago. $1300 was without the core price added to it, but I have that 11 mm pump as an exchange. Thanks for everyone's help and I will replace the pump if the noise comes back.

 

[oilhammer]

Both my ALHs enjoy 11mm pumps rebuilt from DFIS. They both run fantastic.

The clicking noise is indicative of a bad drive plate and shaft (although DFIS could explain better than I can). It is for sure not normal, they can be loud enough that I can hear one pull in our service drive on the other end of the shop. Like baseball cards in bike spokes almost. In some cases, the engine will still be running OK, in others it will be struggling to keep the IQ in check, it'll be bouncing all over the place.

I'd also like to point out, that "resealing" and "rebuilding" a Bosch VE pump is NOT the same thing. DFIS actually has the equipment to set up and calibrate the pump properly. By now, most ALHs have quite a few miles on them, and they are ALL quite old. Yes, you can carefully take it apart and put it back together with new seals, but that assumes it is still in the same calibration it was when it left the factory, 19+ years ago, which it 100% is not. But it may be close enough that it is OK. I have had too many ALHs and AHUs come through this shop after someone had tried monkeying around with the pump, and either they didn't run, barely ran, or had already gone supernova and blew the engine up. It is a simple, but critical component of the engine. DFIS' value to the community in providing good service to properly rebuild these pumps is worth quite a bit. And now that VAG has taken the list price from an already expensive $1600 to an eye-watering $2500, DFIS' abilities are even more valuable.

 

[mrfiat]

Thanks oilhammer. The noise is for sure not there now. Yes, that sounds like the noise as I remember it. I just don't want to spend the money on a pump and timing belt job if this pump is still good. I heard the noise several times from the pump. I'm going to drive it for week or so to make sure the noise doesn't come back before I go on the long trip.

I've been driving my Tesla around town and my wagon for long trips and keeping the sedan as a spare ALH since they are not easy to get in good condition. My sedan is in excellent shape. Looks and drives like new. West coast car so no rust at all.

 

[KrashDH]

Both my ALHs enjoy 11mm pumps rebuilt from DFIS. They both run fantastic.

The clicking noise is indicative of a bad drive plate and shaft (although DFIS could explain better than I can). It is for sure not normal, they can be loud enough that I can hear one pull in our service drive on the other end of the shop. Like baseball cards in bike spokes almost. In some cases, the engine will still be running OK, in others it will be struggling to keep the IQ in check, it'll be bouncing all over the place.

I'd also like to point out, that "resealing" and "rebuilding" a Bosch VE pump is NOT the same thing. DFIS actually has the equipment to set up and calibrate the pump properly. By now, most ALHs have quite a few miles on them, and they are ALL quite old. Yes, you can carefully take it apart and put it back together with new seals, but that assumes it is still in the same calibration it was when it left the factory, 19+ years ago, which it 100% is not. But it may be close enough that it is OK. I have had too many ALHs and AHUs come through this shop after someone had tried monkeying around with the pump, and either they didn't run, barely ran, or had already gone supernova and blew the engine up. It is a simple, but critical component of the engine. DFIS' value to the community in providing good service to properly rebuild these pumps is worth quite a bit. And now that VAG has taken the list price from an already expensive $1600 to an eye-watering $2500, DFIS' abilities are even more valuable.

What is this calibration you talk of? The only critical mechanical setting in the entire pump is the plunger lift, which is easily achieved and set with a dial indicator and an extension which I outlined in my thread. These pumps are not that complicated. There is no "special" calibration that needs to happen by use of tools a regular person can't get. I'm talking the mechanical side of things. Messing with the entire QA is another level, but there is also DIY for fixing QA issues as well, if that happens to be part of the problem.

Yes they have to come apart and go back together a certain way, but it's all mechanical (except the QA of course) and if you take notice and study the parts as they come off, you will understand how they go back together and what would happen if things were say, 180 out. I also provided a supplemental link on my thread about how the entire pump works which is good reading prior to diving in on a project.

DFIS does great work and they are extremely helpful. I wouldn't hesitate to send a pump to them for those not wanting to do it. They helped me a bit on my journey. But it's not as scary as it seams to tackle the task of re-building the pump. If internals are bad, they replace them with new. If the housing bore for the piston is damaged, they can try to hone it to a certain point. If not, it's replaced. They ensure a couple of mechanical stack ups meet Bosch spec. Then the plunger lift.

 

[KrashDH]

Thanks oilhammer. The noise is for sure not there now. Yes, that sounds like the noise as I remember it. I just don't want to spend the money on a pump and timing belt job if this pump is still good. I heard the noise several times from the pump. I'm going to drive it for week or so to make sure the noise doesn't come back before I go on the long trip.

I've been driving my Tesla around town and my wagon for long trips and keeping the sedan as a spare ALH since they are not easy to get in good condition. My sedan is in excellent shape. Looks and drives like new. West coast car so no rust at all.

Yeah I don't hear anything in my pumps like baseball cards, so maybe that is an issue, but it's not one I've heard on my pumps. I'm very in tune with my vehicles and can really hear the smallest of sound changes if something is off. I would for sure notice something on the pump if it was not normal, but nothing like what you and oilhammer are describing.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

One of my co-workers had an ALH with a pump (10mm) that was so loud you couldn't talk to each other standing in front of the running car if the hood was open. It was deafening.

 

[KrashDH]

One of my co-workers had an ALH with a pump (10mm) that was so loud you couldn't talk to each other standing in front of the running car if the hood was open. It was deafening.

Was it replaced or was it determined the noise was caused by pump internals failing? Or did the pump motor on for many more miles?