NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

[tdipoet]

Zzzzz..... Someone please wake me up when the NHTSA finally issues a report.

We're coming up on July and this thread is not getting any less tedious.

i know right? it seems like all it is is guys coming in here and posting about how lame this thread is. reading all those posts that add nothing IS tedious.

 

[GTIDan]

Much ado about nothing

 

[GoFaster]

GTIDan, the numerous people who have experienced an actual failure, would dispute that this is about "nothing".

I, for one, am getting fed up with YOU posting messages of this type repeatedly. And you WILL stop doing so. I will interpret any such future posting as "trolling" and handle it accordingly.

 

[CNdiesel]

So much for free speech.

 

[bhtooefr]

Freedom of speech/expression does not apply to private property.

I can stop you from speaking in my house, under threat of ejection, in just about every country. GoFaster has been appointed to stop people from speaking in VW Derf's "house", so to speak, if they're misbehaving.

 

[chudzikb]

GTIDan, the numerous people who have experienced an actual failure, would dispute that this is about "nothing".

I, for one, am getting fed up with YOU posting messages of this type repeatedly. And you WILL stop doing so. I will interpret any such future posting as "trolling" and handle it accordingly.

Well put, and necessary, many of us have watched this for quite some time, have NOT bought CR's based upon this problem and would sure like to see a solution. If it truly was nothing, there would be one in my garage. It is all about what happens when the pump goes, parts fail, we get that, it is the avoidable damage that takes place after the part fails that is the problem. Someone in VW/Bosh engineering did not think this one through, or was limited by the bean counters.

 

[waspie]

Well put, and necessary, many of us have watched this for quite some time, have NOT bought CR's based upon this problem and would sure like to see a solution. If it truly was nothing, there would be one in my garage. It is all about what happens when the pump goes, parts fail, we get that, it is the avoidable damage that takes place after the part fails that is the problem. Someone in VW/Bosh engineering did not think this one through, or was limited by the bean counters.

you and probably me both. i would love to have a 4 door golf manual but the idea of this happening to me is too much. my wife was pushing me pretty hard about getting a new car, that's how serious it was. I had to explain to her the fuel pump issue to get her to back off!
i watch this thread hoping to see a resolution one day...

 

[kjclow]

It comes down to choice. I have two cr tdis. First one I purchased without knowing about the HPFP. Second one I purchased with full knowledge. Am I pushing my luck? Should I be hiding under my bed? I am driving both, fueling both at stations with low prices and good turn over, occassionally use an additive, sometimes fill with B5-15 depending on price...

I am keeping on eye on these threads in hope that there is a solution prior to my having any issues but with the minimal reported failures, both on here and listed by NHTSA, I am not overly concerned.

Oh, I don't keep or even print out my receipts. Every purchase is on my amex (for a rebate) and if needed, I have a printed record that way. Think about how much paper is wasted by printing out those receipts.

 

[TDIMeister]

These HPFP failures appear to occur at random and there's no formula that innoculates someone from this occuring. Nobody wishes ill on anyone else, but GTIDan sets himself up for the biggest "I told you so" in Internet history should his HPFP go south. And in light of his history of diminishing this problem in this thread, I have to say any response he receives from others would to me also be much ado about nothing...

Dan if you have nothing to add to this thread since it evidently doesn't affect you, spend your posting energies on a totally different subject.

 

[CNdiesel]

These HPFP failures appear to occur at random and there's no formula that innoculates someone from this occuring. Nobody wishes ill on anyone else, but GTIDan sets himself up for the biggest "I told you so" in Internet history should his HPFP go south. And in light of his history of diminishing this problem in this thread, I have to say any response he receives from others would to me also be much ado about nothing...

Dan if you have nothing to add to this thread since it evidently doesn't affect you, spend your posting energies on a totally different subject.

My response was to the Moderator, not GTIDan.

 

[MotoWPK]

GTIDan, the numerous people who have experienced an actual failure, would dispute that this is about "nothing".

I, for one, am getting fed up with YOU posting messages of this type repeatedly. And you WILL stop doing so. I will interpret any such future posting as "trolling" and handle it accordingly.

While many, if not most, might feel "Much ado about nothing" understates the problem, aren't opinions such as that by chudzikb's that; "...many of us have watched this for quite some time, have NOT bought CR's based on upon this problem..." overstating the problem in the opposite direction? In actuality whether either understates or overstates the problem, time will tell. This forum provides much useful information and the differing opinions expressed are, I believe, inseparable from that.

At the same time, this forum suffers, in my opinion, from an all too frequent lack of consideration by posters. I regularly participate in four forums and this one is distinctive in that unfortunate regard. GTIDan has been an example of that (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=355932 page 1 of 3), but is certainly not alone in that regard.

Considering posts of differing opinions and those reflecting inconsideration, I find it interesting and unfortunate that in threatening some sort of action against a poster a moderator's reason would be the former rather than the latter.

 

[TDIMeister]

My response was to the Moderator, not GTIDan.

Did I say my post was addressed to you? BTW, *I* am the Moderator of this section. GoFaster's words echo mine in this instance. Don't like it? You're not obliged to stay.

Edit: Unless your name happens to be Dan too, at which time it would be purely coincidental.

 

[nicklockard]

(snipped)

...aren't opinions such as that by chudzikb's that; "...many of us have watched this for quite some time, have NOT bought CR's based on upon this problem..." overstating the problem in the opposite direction? (snipped)

How is it overstating anything? chudzikb is only sharing HIS personal cautions and how HE is approaching this. He isn't scaring anyone off or hyping the issue. It's a REAL issue, without any effective resolution yet.

Since when is telling simple truth 'overstating the problem'?

 

[GoFaster]

So much for free speech.

Moderating, by definition, involves regulating topics of discussion. By definition, that means deleting posts that cross the line, shutting down discussions that are spiralling out of control or off topic, and in extreme cases, banning members so that they can no longer participate. And it happens ALL the time.

GTIDan has expressed his opinion. He has adequately stated it numerous times. In the interest of not pi$$ing off the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have actually had a HPFP fail, and particularly the cases among those in which people have had to fight VWoA/VWoC to get them to pay up, I am deeming as of right now, that GTIDan has adequately and sufficiently expressed his opinion and that he is not to re-state it yet again.

If GTIDan does not like this position, he is perfectly free to express that opinion somewhere else.

FWIW I am among those who is delaying purchasing any new VW TDI until there is evidence that I deem sufficient, that the HPFP problem has been dealt with, whether by known and documented design change or "lifetime" warranty coverage or whatever. While it seems that failures in Canada are less common for whatever reason, I travel to the USA too much to ignore the issue.

 

[MotoWPK]

How is it overstating anything? chudzikb is only sharing HIS personal cautions and how HE is approaching this. He isn't scaring anyone off or hyping the issue. It's a REAL issue, without any effective resolution yet.

Since when is telling simple truth 'overstating the problem'?

To those who have purchased a CR TDI with knowledge of the HPFP issue it can be seen as an overstatement that the issue is of such magnitude as to preclude purchase of a CR TDI, in the same way that those who have suffered an HPFP failure can feel stating it is 'much ado about nothing' is an overstatement. That it is the posters opinion and it is how he is approaching it was as clear to me that GTIDan's post was his opinion and how he approaches the issue. From the vast discussion on this issue in this and many other threads on this forum it is my opinion that the issue is neither one to ignore nor one to condemn a CR TDI from consideration to purchase.

Has anyone purchased a CR TDI dismissing the HPFP issue because of opinions they've read here that it is not a problem? I don't know. On the other hand, there have been posts of those who have stated they have not purchased a CR TDI or even sold one they owned due to concerns aroused, at least in part, by opinions they have read on this forum in the opposite direction.

Of course this is the risk of reading forums; sifting through the opinions for facts.

 

[TDIMeister]

It's one thing to state your opinion once and give it a rest. GTIDan has posted 79 times in this thread. Check it for yourself: http://forums.tdiclub.com/search.php?searchthreadid=308323 - in "Search by User Name" ... well, you can figure out the rest.

For someone who by self-admission does not believe any HPFP problem exists, posting 79 times reminding us as such in a thread discussing that there IS an HPFP problem is not just a one-time airing of one's opinions.

 

[MotoWPK]

Thanks for your reply TDIMeister. I am qualitatively aware of the many posts by GTIDan that you refer to, though not quantitatively as I expect moderators would try to be. Again from a qualitative standpoint, I was surprised that someone would be reprimanded for either stating an opinion that may not agree with the consensus of a thread or excessive repeated postings as both seem to be very common. Perhaps others have been reprimanded for this and I am not aware it.

I was not trying to defend GTIDan, indeed, I referred to one of his recent posts as an example of inconsiderate replies that I find all too frequent and a detraction to an otherwise excellent forum. It was my intended point to suggest this is a more important issue deserving the moderators attention. Perhaps that's just my sensitivity having been the recipient of such inconsideration recently.

And sorry to what degree I have been guilty of taking this thread off topic. That too was not my intention, but this thread is where the subject started.

 

[TDIMeister]

To be clear, nobody is being reprimanded for airing an opinion. However, we do have codified rules, two of which that may pertain in this case are:
[3]No flaming of other members to incite or perpetuate a conflict or argument. ANY personal attacks or name calling will get you banned.
[4]No bombing forums or threads with pointless posts.

Now back to the background of being the bad policeman.

 

[Niner]

Moderating, by definition, involves regulating topics of discussion. By definition, that means deleting posts that cross the line, shutting down discussions that are spiralling out of control or off topic, and in extreme cases, banning members so that they can no longer participate. And it happens ALL the time.
GTIDan has expressed his opinion. He has adequately stated it numerous times. In the interest of not pi$$ing off the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who have actually had a HPFP fail, and particularly the cases among those in which people have had to fight VWoA/VWoC to get them to pay up, I am deeming as of right now, that GTIDan has adequately and sufficiently expressed his opinion and that he is not to re-state it yet again.
If GTIDan does not like this position, he is perfectly free to express that opinion somewhere else.
FWIW I am among those who is delaying purchasing any new VW TDI until there is evidence that I deem sufficient, that the HPFP problem has been dealt with, whether by known and documented design change or "lifetime" warranty coverage or whatever. While it seems that failures in Canada are less common for whatever reason, I travel to the USA too much to ignore the issue.

From my perspective, you'd be 100% correct in sitting by the sidelines until something in writing and firm gets written up by VW.

The darn thing is that, as of now, and I realize it's only a snapshot/ freeze frame in time, and early in the life cycle, I am aware of only one misfuel causing a HPFP failure in the B7 Passat. Time will tell, if the solenoid nozzle version with AdBlue makes it through the summer heat down in the southern portions of the USA without cumulative failure.

I sat on the sidelines for 4 years, wanting a CR jetta, but knowing the risks of HPFP failure. The passat, at this point in time, only, is a different animal, so far spared the fuel contamination scenario that occur is minute amounts of Jetta's, Golfs, and JSW's. Wish we had an answer as to why it's doing better than it's brethren.

As a side note, I noticed on Wikipedia that rapeseed / Canola oil has better lubricating property's when emulsified with water, and in preventing corrosion, than other oils. This was first noted in the steam engine era. It's one of those things that make's you go Hmmm? Because all of Europe and a good portion of Canada runs on rapeseed oil or a derivative hydrid plant, Canola seed oil based biodiesel, where as here in the USA, most biodiesel is either waste vegetable oil or virgin soy based biodiesel.

Not all vegetable oils are the same, I found it fascinating the steam engine connection and rapeseed oil clinging to metal better than other vegetable oils of the time in steam engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canola

Hundreds of years ago, rapeseed oil was used as a fuel in lamps in Asia and Europe. The Chinese and Indians used a form of rapeseed oil that was unrefined (natural).[10] Its use was limited until the development of steam power, when machinists found rapeseed oil clung to water- or steam-washed metal surfaces better than other lubricants. World War II saw high demand for the oil as a lubricant for the rapidly increasing number of steam engines in naval and merchant ships. When the war blocked European and Asian sources of rapeseed oil, a critical shortage developed and Canada began to expand its limited rapeseed production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed


Maybe we here in the USA should quit screwing around with soy based biodiesel and start growing rapeseed/ canola oil instead for our biodiesel production? Would it again cling to metal surfaces / act as a barrier to moisture /wet fuel in our HPFP's better than other biodiesel based oils?

One of those things to ponder and make you go Hmmmmm?

 

[Ski in NC]

In a little different direction, here's a thought: Maybe fuel vendors really were selling low lube fuel and once the failures started making press, they tightened up their additive blending controls. Fuel vendors could face some serious legal problems if it is proved they have been selling subpar fuel AND there is significant damage caused.

Still no excuse for Bosch/VW selling a non-robust design pump.

 

[GTIDan]

These HPFP failures appear to occur at random and there's no formula that innoculates someone from this occurring. Nobody wishes ill on anyone else, but GTIDan sets himself up for the biggest "I told you so" in Internet history should his HPFP go south. And in light of his history of diminishing this problem in this thread, I have to say any response he receives from others would to me also be much ado about nothing...

Dan if you have nothing to add to this thread since it evidently doesn't affect you, spend your posting energies on a totally different subject.

I've never said it didn't affect me.

What I'm trying to say here in one way or another is that from what I've read herein and what I've been told by my VW dealer is that in 'almost' all instances the car/s have been fixed under warranty even when VW knew there was gasoline in the tank.

So with that said..........if I have a problem (or you) VW will probably fix it. So I'm not going to go through my life worrying about it. The car is running great; it's a blast to drive and mpg is impressive. What's not to love?

Yes, it's my opinion that this whole problem has been hyped up way beyond the reality. Since this is a forum I have a right to state my case.

But just so the moderator doesn't ban me. I'll not post on this subject in the future UNLESS my HPFP goes south and than I'll let you all know so you can all say "I told you so".

 

[kjclow]

Because all of Europe and a good portion of Canada runs on rapeseed oil or a derivative hydrid plant, Canola seed oil based biodiesel, where as here in the USA, most biodiesel is either waste vegetable oil or virgin soy based biodiesel.

Any bio blend you find at a major retailer is going to be based on virgin oil, not waste vegetable oil.

 

[ColoradoDriver]

How about we close this thread until something is announced!

 

[kydsid]

Has anyone purchased a CR TDI dismissing the HPFP issue because of opinions they've read here that it is not a problem? I don't know.

I did. Maybe I am cynical about forums, but the way I view forums it's enthusiats and people with problems who post. I judged that with as easy as this forum is found with a google search that if there was a problem worthy of walking away from the car the incidence of posts would actually be higher than they are.

 

[Second Turbo]

Waiting ...

ColoradoDriver: > How about we close this thread until something is announced!

This thread is already nearly useless for anyone just encountering it.

When the NHTSA dump occurs, we need a new thread, and at that time, inserting a pointer and locking this one would be productive.

 

[RNDDUDE]

What I'm trying to say here in one way or another is that from what I've read herein and what I've been told by my VW dealer is that in 'almost' all instances the car/s have been fixed under warranty even when VW knew there was gasoline in the tank.

So with that said..........if I have a problem (or you) VW will probably fix it.

I'm reminded of the current Honda TV commercial where a couple is visiting the dealership next to the Honda dealership, and the salesman is touting the wonderfulness of their warranty, and if anything goes wrong, they will fix it, and the couple responds by saying that means the warranty is reliable, but not necessarily the car....

 

[bhtooefr]

Any bio blend you find at a major retailer is going to be based on virgin oil, not waste vegetable oil.

Everywhere but the west coast, maybe, but there, you get weird nut oil stuff and commercial-scale WVO-based bio.

I'd want to know the feedstock anywhere I was in an area with a hippie infestation, before fueling.

 

[Niner]

Everywhere but the west coast, maybe, but there, you get weird nut oil stuff and commercial-scale WVO-based bio.
I'd want to know the feedstock anywhere I was in an area with a hippie infestation, before fueling.

I'd modify that and change it to anywhere west of the Rockies. Soy bean crops aren't grown there for fuel stock, so everything west of the Rockies has a very, very high probability of being WVO or grease trap renderings based for biodiesel production. Las Vegas, NV has a huge restaurant base, and Haycock Petroleum has the WVO collection of these places locked up. Same with Phoenix, and Salt Lake City, as well as all of the West Coast major metropolises.

http://www.nearbio.com/

For some reason, everywhere I've called for biodiesel B99 today is asking $4.89 a gallon? Strange, almost as if price fixing is going on? Pretty steep price, when you can almost guarantee it was made out of WVO, or if in Texas near Tyson chicken farms, chicken fat.

 

[MonsterTDI09]

Has there been any failures reported lately?We might see some now with this heat wave.

 

[Blonde Guy]

Everywhere but the west coast, maybe, but there, you get weird nut oil stuff and commercial-scale WVO-based bio.

I'd want to know the feedstock anywhere I was in an area with a hippie infestation, before fueling.

You mean like this?

http://www.thegreenstation.us/bio-diesel-santa-cruz/bio-diesel-santa-cruz

How would we trust them if they weren't hippies?