NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

dzcad90

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This thread has been moved from the MkVI section to the TDI News section as it covers a wide scope of vehicles, and of course, it's news!
 
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timwagon

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Bloomberg Business news just posted this update on the NHTSA investigation of the HPFP failure.

VW insists that all HPFP failures are caused by "mis-fueling" issues.

NHTSA is estimating that 0.53% of 2009 models (1 in 200) and 0.11% of 2010 models (1 in 1,000) have experienced these failures.

According to the report, the HPFP pump has now been redesigned three times!

This issue has been escalated by NHTSA and may result in a recall.

Bloomberg Article:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-11/volkswagens-under-u-s-review-for-fuel-pump-flaws.html

NHTSA document:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/docservlet/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2010/PE/INCLA-PE10034-6542.PDF
 
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Jackiechan005

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"Volkswagen indicated that the testing of fuel samples from complaint vehicles found that nearly 90 percent contained high amounts of gasoline. Volkswagen implemented design changes for the HPFP in May 2008, September 2009 and November 2010 to
improve the robustness of the pump when used with poor quality fuel."

Anyone know what design changes were implemented?
 

TDIMeister

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0.01% is 1 in 10,000.

NHTSA intensifies probe into 100,000 VW diesel vehicles

Federal safety regulators stepped up an investigation into nearly 100,000 Volkswagen and Audi diesel vehicles over fuel pump failures.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said today it had upgraded its investigation into 97,272 diesel 2009-10 Volkswagen Jetta, 2010 Volkswagen Golf and Audi A3 vehicles.
 

ilyago

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From the NHTSA document, VW mostly blames most cases on gasoline contaminated diesel fuel, but also states that:

Volkswagen implemented design changes for the HPFP in May 2008, September 2009 and November 2010 to improve the robustness of the pump when used with poor quality fuel.​


 

timwagon

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From the NHTSA document, VW mostly blames most cases on gasoline contaminated diesel fuel, but also states that:

Volkswagen implemented design changes for the HPFP in May 2008, September 2009 and November 2010 to improve the robustness of the pump when used with poor quality fuel.


VW's current stance is: DENY, DENY DENY.

If it's only caused by gasoline contamination, why three separate HPFP redesigns?

Why redesign the HPFP at all if it's not a bad pump issue?​
 

quadrun1

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According to the NHTSA document,

For 2009 the number is 0.53% (roughly 1 in 200)
For 2010 the number is 0.11% (roughly 1 in 1000) (not 0.01% which would be 1 in 10,000)

Jason
 

dubStrom

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I had a feeling that design changes (or at least improvements in quality control at bosch) were underway.

I bought my car in May last year (full tax credit!!), but I wonder if it got one of the last, most recent fuel pumps? I would like to know manufacture dates for the last HPFP version, and check it against my engine build date.
 

ruking

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Indeed. If the pump was "RE" designed 3 times, does that mean the only ones to receive one of the three/four were the ones that failed? I know for example I still have the oem factory HPFP. So if one fails a second time, does IT now get the 2nd/3rd redesign, etc? Or is it dictated by WHEN the HPFP fails and they just use the latest and greatest upgrades? PN#'s bear no evidence of any sequential upgrades (so for example (DASH-) -1,-2,-3, -4)

Looks like the ground work is being laid for a FULL recall. I would assume that VW would give all of us (except those already fixed) the latest and greatest upgrade so they do not have to do ANOTHER full scale recall.

These published numbers were quite helpful in that I had swagged the 09 (one that I have) were 1% or less. Seems the math indicates a schosh more than one half of 1 percent.
 
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ksing44

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According to the NHTSA document,

For 2009 the number is 0.53% (roughly 1 in 200)
For 2010 the number is 0.11% (roughly 1 in 1000) (not 0.01% which would be 1 in 10,000)

Jason
If 90% really are from using gasoline, then the failure rate might be 0.01%, or 1/10,000 for folks that are sure to only use diesel. I'm just doing some wishful thinking with this, not trying to be a jerk.

I do wish I had a car with the November 2010 upgraded pump. I guess my car only has 2 of the updates. It would be nice to know what they did to improve the pump. Honestly, I wish they would just come up with something to prevent the debris from contaminating the fuel system. Then it would just be a new pump for a few hundred bucks, not really a big deal at all.
 
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timwagon

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I had a feeling that design changes (or at least improvements in quality control at bosch) were underway.

I bought my car in May last year (full tax credit!!), but I wonder if it got one of the last, most recent fuel pumps? I would like to know manufacture dates for the last HPFP version, and check it against my engine build date.
Last pump update was November, 2010, according to the NHTSA report.

The link to the NHTSA report is in the OP.
 

dubStrom

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find someone dumping their 09Jetta!

So now I would feel confident buying someone's 09' TDI at a bargain. I know some folks were dumping them, ranting on this site about how they felt outrage (I am sympathetic). Get an '09 prefailure Jetta or Golf at substantial discount, install one of the new pumps, and sail on!!!

Yes! Maybe I should look for a used 2.0 CR Golf 6MT now?
 

timwagon

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If 90% really are from using gasoline, then the failure rate might be 0.01%, or 1/10,000 for folks that are sure to only use diesel.

I do wish I had a car with the November 2010 upgraded pump. I guess my car only has 2 of the updates. It would be nice to now what they did to improve the pump. Honestly, I wish they would just come up with soemthing to prevent the debris from contaminating the fuel system. Then it would just be a new pump for a few hundred bucks.
VW's 90% number is pure bulls%$t, as far as I'm concerned.

Who ran these fuel tests, and who certified the test results?

It's apparent that NHTSA is not buying VW's claims, as they've opened a full engineering investigation.

I'll bet the three separate HPFP redesigns in less than two years has also been met with suspicion by NHTSA.

Apparently, VW has learned nothing from the Toyota recall disaster.

It's always better to get out ahead of a defect issue than to delay and deny, which only makes the issue worse, and ends up driving away customers.
 

ruking

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So now I would feel confident buying someone's 09' TDI at a bargain. I know some folks were dumping them, ranting on this site about how they felt outrage (I am sympathetic). Get an '09 prefailure Jetta or Golf at substantial discount, install one of the new pumps, and sail on!!!

Yes! Maybe I should look for a used 2.0 CR Golf 6MT now?
I have actually from the start felt the 09,10, MY (and to project the 2011) would make GOOD used cars. However with the sword of the HPFP issue dangling overhead, that would rate @ least a healthy skeptical wait and see. It would be interesting now to see if (used) prices continue to slide, firm up, or strengthen, to going UP.
 
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740GLE

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At least this is progress!!! the more press and eyes that see this put more pressure on VW
 

timwagon

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Although VW claims that 90% of the failures are "fuel-related", VW only submitted results to NHTSA for 50 actual fuel tests, and 20 of those tests were from the dealer service area adding gasoline to a TDI!

So, VW actually has some evidence of contamination by an owner for only 30 out of the 160 reported failures, or less than 20% of the failures.

The rest of the failures don't have any evidence to back up VW's claims of mis-fueling.
 

wutbürger

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Although VW claims that 90% of the failures are "fuel-related", VW only submitted results to NHTSA for 50 actual fuel tests, and 20 of those tests were from the dealer service area adding gasoline to a TDI!

So, VW actually has some evidence of contamination by an owner for only 30 out of the 160 reported failures, or less than 20% of the failures.

The rest of the failures don't have any evidence to back up VW's claims of mis-fueling.
Not only that, but how many of those "50" where infamous coke or styrofoam tests? I don't know what kind of samples/data NHTSA demanded but I would be curious to know what the data integrity was of the "fuel tests".

I am extremely curious to see where this goes. Would also like to know what changes were made to fuel pump design during that time- if the incident count is so low compared to models sold, along with the allegation that failures are attributed mostly to user error, why would the pump be redesigned 3 times? I realize the pump design, I believe, is soley up to Bosch but all very intersting

Thanks for the article!
 
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dubStrom

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Serious facepalm

This comment in the NHTSA ODI resume is just plain sad and embarassing:

"The mis-fueling incidents include about 20 reports involving incorrect fueling by dealer sales or service personnel..."

Have you ever (failed to) notice the word DIESEL in big upper case letters that confronts you when you open the fuel hatch? Perhaps VW never considered the apparent fact that they'd need a fuel pump that can withstand the abuse of their own dealership network :p

 
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Henry D 8

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Crap, I bought mine November 1st. Not much of a chance that I have the latest upgrade I guess.:(
 

kgieskes

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I have heard that the cost to fix it if everything has gone wrong is over $10,000. I am a little skeptical here. The entire car cannot have a much higher production cost than perhaps $15,000. How could replacing even the entire engine cost $10K???

I believe that it is not unlikely that 90% did indeed misfuel their car. The worrisome thing is that it does such serious damage and not just that the damage is limited to not running and having to drain the fuel. The other worry that I have is that 90% misfuels leaves 10% that did have the right fuel and still experienced catastrophic failure...

Anyway, mine is a 2011, that I got in December 2010. Hopefully I have the latest and greatest HPFP.
 

TDI793

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This is great news! Glad someone is finally taking a look at the problem. Guess I just missed the third revision of the fuel pump since I bought my car first week of November.
 

Runnerguy45

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I am hoping the 2011's JSW are ok, makes me feel better about buying one now, even if something is wrong as someone else pointed cat is out of the bag. When I test drove the JSW I asked the sales person about the issue and he said he had never heard of it, was he full of it ? either way he should have known. This board is very helpful to say the least. You guys are the best.
 

El Dobro

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I can see the VW engineers, with melted styrofoam coffee cups in evidence bags, parading before a NHTSA inquiry board saying, "See, bad fuel". :rolleyes:
 

StaceyS

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I have heard that the cost to fix it if everything has gone wrong is over $10,000. I am a little skeptical here. The entire car cannot have a much higher production cost than perhaps $15,000. How could replacing even the entire engine cost $10K???
The $10k figure (or thereabouts) isn't VW's cost, its the retail cost that the customer pays. Totally spitballing here, I'd guess VW's cost is probably closer to $4k... But then you get dealer fees, documentation fees, destination fees, prep fees, part washing fees, seal overhaul fees, phone answering fees, surly mechanic attitude adjustment fees, etc.
You can see how it adds up. I'm surprised these companies make any money at all...:rolleyes:
 

BarrieCommuter

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i asked my tech at the dealership about HPFP failures and he said..."what?". this is up in orillia. they have an open door policy at this dealership and ask them a bunch of questions while they work on your car.
 

Runnerguy45

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VW is sticking with their arrogant attitude in all the articles, they are consistent. They still don't feel like they are responsible.
 
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