NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

[MRO1791]

Automakers make these kinds of cost saving decisions all of the time. In many cases, things work out fine, but in some cases they push the limits too far, and then you have problems.

Even once the problem has been discovered, it is undoubtedly cheaper to replace a few pumps under warranty that it would be to recall all cars with a CP4 and replace with a CP3.

My beef is that they keep playing games and insist that the problem is due to misfueling, when their engineers almost certainly know to be a lie.

Well said, and applies to the emissions cheat as well.. it was years of denials, when certainly someone inside VW knew the cars were intentionally designed to cheat. They also know quite well, most cars will survive past 120K and 10 years on the original horrible HPFP, they know this from failure rates, so letting them fail, and replacing a few early ones is cheaper than a proper fix, and admission of putting a poor design into the market in the first place.. and sure, other OEMs play the same game as well, VW is not alone in this, but that emissions cheat is a pretty extreme example for typical OEM behavior for such things.

On the Cruze Diesel threads, there is a glitch that on very rare occasion in a pre-regen condition for the DPF, that if the car is shut off in that small time window (<60 seconds), it causes a reduced power condition at next start up, forcing a dealer visit and manual regeneration. This has not happened on either of my 2 cars, but knowing about it, I can avoid with a short cool down before I shut off, and I monitor MAP and EGTs so I know if it is in that condition, but is GM doing anything to fix the software to avoid this? Nope, because we are talking about a small problem, rare occurrence, on a small population of cars.. so those that have them are on their own to prevent this problem... but this is tiny compared to the expense of a HPFP failure and contaminated fuel system with abrasive hard metal particulates, but shows a similar tendency of OEMs to make cost benefit decisions, which do not keep the customer as first consideration.

 

[MrSprdSheet]

.. shows a similar tendency of OEMs to make cost benefit decisions, which do not keep the customer as first consideration.

Well said. The "on the inside, on the outside" message management challenges so many, at this point, to stick around.

I'm thinking about last week's story about Deutsche Post (DHL Europe) going DIY for the cars they wanted (EV delivery vans), and Mueller being upset "beyond measure", that they didn't call VW. DHL followed, saying they contacted manufacturers for such a design, and were rejected.

 

[Terrific-In-Tahoma]

VW Lost out on Opportunity....StreetScooter Formed

Well said. The "on the inside, on the outside" message management challenges so many, at this point, to stick around.

I'm thinking about last week's story about Deutsche Post (DHL Europe) going DIY for the cars they wanted (EV delivery vans), and Mueller being upset "beyond measure", that they didn't call VW. DHL followed, saying they contacted manufacturers for such a design, and were rejected.

I am guessing, but could this be the article referred to above?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutschepost-vans-interlopers-idUSKCN1261RB

 

[skyjake]

On my 2015 Jetta, the HPFP has already been replaced. I'm just glad it didn't happened out of the warranty.

 

[jmanner]

2013 TDI, probability of HPFP failure?

I apologize if this question is answered somewhere within the forum, but not a diligent follower. We LOVE our 2013 Passat TDI. However, are we exposed to HPFP failure? From reading, it appears VW extended the warranty though 2012, but not 2013 and above. Does this imply the issue is fixed in 2013 and later, presuming one does not do something stupid such as mis-fueling? Of course we have the tempting buyback offer, but as mentioned, our Passat fits our needs to a T.

 

[bubbagumpshrimp]

I apologize if this question is answered somewhere within the forum, but not a diligent follower. We LOVE our 2013 Passat TDI. However, are we exposed to HPFP failure? From reading, it appears VW extended the warranty though 2012, but not 2013 and above. Does this imply the issue is fixed in 2013 and later, presuming one does not do something stupid such as mis-fueling? Of course we have the tempting buyback offer, but as mentioned, our Passat fits our needs to a T.

For some people...they pick a fuel nozzle to use based on the color of the handle...thinking green or yellow "means diesel," when the reality of it is that any color handle can be gasoline or diesel.

That or they lend their vehicle to someone to drive and that person puts gas in the car, because a sticker "diesel only" by the steering wheel and on the fuel door doesn't stand out enough for them.

There was a recall to put a "misfuel" guard on some cars, but for whatever reason....my 2013 didn't get that recall. I'll get around that by just looking for the word "diesel" prior to selecting a nozzle and pumping fuel, lol.

Supposedly...the issue is less of an issue (less common) with 2013+ cars. HPFP failure, that is.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

There was a recall to put a "misfuel" guard on some cars, but for whatever reason....my 2013 didn't get that recall. I'll get around that by just looking for the word "diesel" prior to selecting a nozzle and pumping fuel, lol.

Your 2013 didn't get the recall because the 2013s already came from the factory with a misfuel guard installed.

 

[kjclow]

I apologize if this question is answered somewhere within the forum, but not a diligent follower. We LOVE our 2013 Passat TDI. However, are we exposed to HPFP failure? From reading, it appears VW extended the warranty though 2012, but not 2013 and above. Does this imply the issue is fixed in 2013 and later, presuming one does not do something stupid such as mis-fueling? Of course we have the tempting buyback offer, but as mentioned, our Passat fits our needs to a T.

Generally, the Passats did not have as many failures as the golf/jettas/beetles. Some think it was due to the scr system, but it is all speculation.

 

[PlaneCrazy]

Generally, the Passats did not have as many failures as the golf/jettas/beetles. Some think it was due to the scr system, but it is all speculation.

The theory is that with SCR, emission control was easier (!), and lower fuel rail pressures could be used, which would not stress the HPFP as much.

Of course we all know now that "emission control" was really emission cheating. The SCR cars don't have to cheat as hard as the NOx trap cars...

 

[MRO1791]

I apologize if this question is answered somewhere within the forum, but not a diligent follower. We LOVE our 2013 Passat TDI. However, are we exposed to HPFP failure? From reading, it appears VW extended the warranty though 2012, but not 2013 and above. Does this imply the issue is fixed in 2013 and later, presuming one does not do something stupid such as mis-fueling? Of course we have the tempting buyback offer, but as mentioned, our Passat fits our needs to a T.

There have been failures on the 2013 and newer, and some without a mis-fuel. The mis-fuel was a giant VW smokescreen to cover for a crappy design (They saved $600 per car for the new HPFP over the CP3 pump... and the emissions cheat only saved about $330 per car..so that is called a pattern). The NHTSA investigation found VW overstated mis-fuel in failed cars by a factor of 10.. What that means is mis-fuel is not needed to have a failure. The problem is with a cam roller design, the material stress at the contact point is severe, a small imperfection in that contact surface from either a material defect, or some impurity in the fuel is going to lead to a failure. The CP3 pump that was before this did not have a cam roller design, and used 3 pistons instead of 1.. so as you can imagine, far less stress, and much more reliable. If you really like the car, I'd take the VW money you will get and invest in the CP3 conversion kit made by 2micron on this forum, and never worry about the stupid HPFP again. The money you should get would cover the kit and installation, and it is what I would do if I did not get rid of my 2012 Jetta. I now have 2 Chevy Cruze TD, both 2015 (they have a HPFP similar to a CP3, 3 piston pump, no cam/roller), and I'm enjoying them, but it is a smaller car than the Passat, which is a nice car, and I can understand your wanting to keep it.

Oh, I should also note, the Cruze does not have a mis-fuel guard (it has a nice big fuel neck that even a truck nozzle can fit). The second one I got used had a mis-fuel (discovered by investigation of servicing dealers)... the mis-fuel did not kill the HPFP, they simply pumped out the bad fuel and purged the system, and all if well. A critical part should not be so failure prone and so delicate as it is on the VWs.

 

[MRO1791]

Here is the thread on the CP3 conversion kit. 2micron is a solid guy, and this kit has been out there awhile, I almost bought one for my 2012, but instead traded it for the Cruze CTD.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=367804

 

[geodug]

Spotted a Facebook posting today about a Canadian TDI owner with 147,000 km (91,000 miles). His HPFP blew recently and VW billed him $9,000 arguing they could not find the reason for the failure. The owner got the local TV station consumer bulldog on the job and after much back and forth, VW finally agreed to pay 75% of the cost.

It sounds like VW was trying to duck out of responsibility on this. I thought there was an extended warranty on the pump.

http://globalnews.ca/video/3113849/langley-mans-volkswagen-nightmare

 

[jason_]

Haha. The pump itself is the reason. No searching required.



Sent from my S-Off'ed HTC One...

 

[flyboy320]

Spotted a Facebook posting today about a Canadian TDI owner with 147,000 km (91,000 miles). His HPFP blew recently and VW billed him $9,000 arguing they could not find the reason for the failure. The owner got the local TV station consumer bulldog on the job and after much back and forth, VW finally agreed to pay 75% of the cost.

It sounds like VW was trying to duck out of responsibility on this. I thought there was an extended warranty on the pump.

http://globalnews.ca/video/3113849/langley-mans-volkswagen-nightmare

I beleive the extended warranrty for the pump is only in the US...once again us Canadians get screwed by VW.

 

[kjclow]

I beleive the extended warranrty for the pump is only in the US...once again us Canadians get screwed by VW.

You are correct on both accounts. The extended warranty was to essentially shut down the NHTSA investigation (my opinion, not fact). Since the NHTSA has no influence over Canadian laws/regulations, VWC did not issue the same warranty.

 

[Cseress]

HPFP Failure in 2013 vehicles

I apologize if this question is answered somewhere within the forum, but not a diligent follower. We LOVE our 2013 Passat TDI. However, are we exposed to HPFP failure? From reading, it appears VW extended the warranty though 2012, but not 2013 and above. Does this imply the issue is fixed in 2013 and later, presuming one does not do something stupid such as mis-fueling? Of course we have the tempting buyback offer, but as mentioned, our Passat fits our needs to a T.

Yes, you are. Sept 25, my glowlamp came on and I took the car immediately to my mechanic (77,000 miles on the 2013 tdi). Metal shavings in the fuel system. He said call VW and ask if there is a warranty; I did and they said "YES!" So I drove carefully over there, the engine light now on. Before I got there, the service Tech at my local VW dealership said he was shocked but there is no warranty on my car. The cost to repair? $7800. They tried to get goodwill from VW Corporate, but were told there is NO good will for TDIs. My car has been sitting at the dealership since Sept 25, and they have promised to do everything they can to make sure it gets onto the buyback truck, but I have not yet received my offer!! And I don't want to 100% finance a new car!! I am not a happy camper, not at all. I believe that they should have DISCLOSED to 2013 TDI buyers that this was a risk before we purchased the vehicles! VW tries to maintain that it is mostly mis-fueling, but the safety report from the government highlights misfueling as being significantly less common than VW Corporate maintains, and fingers keep pointing to a Bosch injector.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

Anne Drewa and Sophie Lui, mmmmmmmm.

 

[ATR]

Yes, you are. Sept 25, my glowlamp came on and I took the car immediately to my mechanic (77,000 miles on the 2013 tdi). Metal shavings in the fuel system. He said call VW and ask if there is a warranty; I did and they said "YES!" So I drove carefully over there, the engine light now on. Before I got there, the service Tech at my local VW dealership said he was shocked but there is no warranty on my car. The cost to repair? $7800. They tried to get goodwill from VW Corporate, but were told there is NO good will for TDIs. My car has been sitting at the dealership since Sept 25, and they have promised to do everything they can to make sure it gets onto the buyback truck, but I have not yet received my offer!! And I don't want to 100% finance a new car!! I am not a happy camper, not at all. I believe that they should have DISCLOSED to 2013 TDI buyers that this was a risk before we purchased the vehicles! VW tries to maintain that it is mostly mis-fueling, but the safety report from the government highlights misfueling as being significantly less common than VW Corporate maintains, and fingers keep pointing to a Bosch injector.

I'd call a few local news stations and see if they can put a giant spotlight on this issue (show them this thread as well). Vwoa should be covering this.

 

[SilverGhost]

I apologize if this question is answered somewhere within the forum, but not a diligent follower. We LOVE our 2013 Passat TDI. However, are we exposed to HPFP failure? From reading, it appears VW extended the warranty though 2012, but not 2013 and above. Does this imply the issue is fixed in 2013 and later, presuming one does not do something stupid such as mis-fueling? Of course we have the tempting buyback offer, but as mentioned, our Passat fits our needs to a T.

Here is my observation (working at a dealer) - no.

We have done numerous Jetta/Golf fuel system failures (oddly no Beetles) with marginal to no obvious mis-fuel issue. There have been some that admitted to mis-fuel previous tank or only a little and kept on driving, but most appear to be just filling as normal and it quits one day. And a few have drained substantial water out of, so be careful where you get fuel.

Now I have only seen 2 Passats, over the last 6 years, with a fuel system failure. Both were mis-fueled with a full tank of gasoline and driven until dead. In both cases the fuel system was flushed with diesel, filter and HPFP replaced and continued life.

Jason

 

[jason_]

Holy jesus. The pistons outlived the pumps' lack of lubrication???

Could I burn premium with the right pump?

Sent from my S-Off'ed HTC One...

 

[GTSLOW]

My 2012 just turned 105K. Planning on going CP3 when I change the timing belt.

 

[MRO1791]

Here is my observation (working at a dealer) - no.

We have done numerous Jetta/Golf fuel system failures (oddly no Beetles) with marginal to no obvious mis-fuel issue. There have been some that admitted to mis-fuel previous tank or only a little and kept on driving, but most appear to be just filling as normal and it quits one day. And a few have drained substantial water out of, so be careful where you get fuel.

Now I have only seen 2 Passats, over the last 6 years, with a fuel system failure. Both were mis-fueled with a full tank of gasoline and driven until dead. In both cases the fuel system was flushed with diesel, filter and HPFP replaced and continued life.

Jason

In contrast, my second Cruze Diesel, which I bought used.. it has had a misfuel, and was run until is stopped with multiple MIL (according to records I was able to attain).. Bad fuel replaced, and MIL cleared, and the HPFP is OK, no need to replace. The cam roller is a HORRIBLE design. The Passat, as I understand it has different injectors (solenoid vs piezo electric), perhaps lower fuel rail pressures, so it might be less failure prone, but it's still a crappy cam roller, and it was done only to save about $600 per car.. VW cheated emissions for about $300 per car. That is what it is. That CP3 conversion kit would be a must have if I had kept my VW (and the restitution money would more that pay for it), and if I ever found one extra cheap, it would be a must install, or I would never really trust the car that could rapidly die with a HPFP failure causing massive and expensive and complicated repairs.. I just would not trust that pump. Same with the newer Ford and GM trucks that use the 2 piston version, the cam roller is a poor design, but it is clearly easier and cheaper to manufacture, hence why it exists.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

In contrast, my second Cruze Diesel, which I bought used.. it has had a misfuel, and was run until is stopped with multiple MIL (according to records I was able to attain).. Bad fuel replaced, and MIL cleared, and the HPFP is OK, no need to replace. The cam roller is a HORRIBLE design. The Passat, as I understand it has different injectors (solenoid vs piezo electric), perhaps lower fuel rail pressures, so it might be less failure prone, but it's still a crappy cam roller, and it was done only to save about $600 per car.. VW cheated emissions for about $300 per car. That is what it is. That CP3 conversion kit would be a must have if I had kept my VW (and the restitution money would more that pay for it), and if I ever found one extra cheap, it would be a must install, or I would never really trust the car that could rapidly die with a HPFP failure causing massive and expensive and complicated repairs.. I just would not trust that pump. Same with the newer Ford and GM trucks that use the 2 piston version, the cam roller is a poor design, but it is clearly easier and cheaper to manufacture, hence why it exists.

I've drained and refilled many misfuelled Dmax CP3 work trucks that barely made it here, dying numerous times on route and years later, still running, some 24 hours a day.

 

[SilverGhost]

Both Passats I spoke of started after getting fresh Diesel, but for the sake of long term durability (one was a PDI) the HPFP was replaced.

Jason

 

[montgomery]

Audi A3 1.6tdi

Have just been informed that my high pressure diesel pump has failed causing me a major expense to repair. The car is a 2012 model and has 40,000 miles. Any news as to whether Audi are extending warranty on this.

 

[SilverGhost]

Have just been informed that my high pressure diesel pump has failed causing me a major expense to repair. The car is a 2012 model and has 40,000 miles. Any news as to whether Audi are extending warranty on this.

That would depend on what your local importer is doing. Warranties are different from country to country. Not sure how many people are on here from Malta or somewhere close that could help.

Jason

 

[Smokin_Joe]

Have just been informed that my high pressure diesel pump has failed causing me a major expense to repair. The car is a 2012 model and has 40,000 miles. Any news as to whether Audi are extending warranty on this.

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/tdi-discussion-101/ Try posting here Good Luck