VelvetFoot
Top Post Dawg
Any recommendations for a new non-VW economy hatchback?
New Non-VW Economy Hatch?
- Thread starter VelvetFoot
- Start date
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Lotsa choices.
Toyota Yaris?
Hyundai Acc(id)ent?
Kia Rio (mechanically same as Accent but looks different and the hatch model is a 5 door)
Nissan Versa
Honda Fit
can't think of others off hand. They're all pretty decent these days, although some of them look a lot more cheapo than others.
Toyota Yaris?
Hyundai Acc(id)ent?
Kia Rio (mechanically same as Accent but looks different and the hatch model is a 5 door)
Nissan Versa
Honda Fit
can't think of others off hand. They're all pretty decent these days, although some of them look a lot more cheapo than others.
VelvetFoot
Top Post Dawg
I don't know if I'd like the center speedo on the Yaris and Scion's....
The Fit does seem pretty versitile inside, and the Yaris has a little more flair, in my opinion.
The Fit does seem pretty versitile inside, and the Yaris has a little more flair, in my opinion.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
I recommend the Accent/Rio twins. Great cars for the money. I have an '03 Accent (previous body) that the in-laws drive. Not a peep of trouble. Nothing fancy, certainly no Volkswagen, but it gets the job done.
Keep in mind some of these cars, the hatchback version is 2-door only. The Aveo (Daewoo-built Chevrolet), the Rio, and the Mazda 3 (rebadged second gen Focus), the Fit, are available 4 door/hatchback.
Yaris hatch is 2 door only, as is the Accent. You want a 4 door you get stuck with a sedan, which makes no sense in a car that small (the trunk becomes useless).
The Opel Astra will be available here soon as well, at a Saturn dealer near you. These are the 3rd best selling car in Europe, after the Golf and Focus, so they must not be that bad. Although we won't likely see a diesel version (thanks GM, dropped the ball once again!
).
I have driven them all EXCEPT the Versa. The Yaris is too goofy with little to offer, the Fit is fine so long as you stay under 50 MPH...does NOT like sidewinds at all. What are you wanting to spend? And what is your primary purpose for buying?
Keep in mind some of these cars, the hatchback version is 2-door only. The Aveo (Daewoo-built Chevrolet), the Rio, and the Mazda 3 (rebadged second gen Focus), the Fit, are available 4 door/hatchback.
Yaris hatch is 2 door only, as is the Accent. You want a 4 door you get stuck with a sedan, which makes no sense in a car that small (the trunk becomes useless).
The Opel Astra will be available here soon as well, at a Saturn dealer near you. These are the 3rd best selling car in Europe, after the Golf and Focus, so they must not be that bad. Although we won't likely see a diesel version (thanks GM, dropped the ball once again!
).I have driven them all EXCEPT the Versa. The Yaris is too goofy with little to offer, the Fit is fine so long as you stay under 50 MPH...does NOT like sidewinds at all. What are you wanting to spend? And what is your primary purpose for buying?
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CoriolisSTORM
Veteran Member
Dodge Caliber??? I'm biased on more than one account though!
My R/T:
Its orange, but it looks red on camera...
My R/T:
Its orange, but it looks red on camera...
DPM
Top Post Dawg
not really economy tho, is it?
JohnBennett
Active member
A woman at my work has a Ford Focus station wagon.
It's a sharp little car. I dig it.
It's a sharp little car. I dig it.
SuburbanTDI
Veteran Member
Mini? Maybe even hope for a Mini D?
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
I'd vote for the Fit. Or a Scion xB, quick before the new ones come out which are too big and heavy.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Yeah, forgot about the Caliber.
I would NOT get a Focus. Reason? Why buy a new Focus that is the old defunct chassis when your Mazda dealer has the new second gen Focus badged as a 3 for about the same price? The 3 is far superior.
The Yaris, the xB, and xA all ride on essentially the same platform. And they are all pretty chintzy and too trendy for my tastes. Besides, the Yaris hatch is squirrelly enough at speed, the xB is even worse. A bird flies by and you change lanes, they blow all over. Around town they are not bad so long as you do not mind the torqueless hairdryer 1.5L engine whining its guts out to move you around.
I would NOT get a Focus. Reason? Why buy a new Focus that is the old defunct chassis when your Mazda dealer has the new second gen Focus badged as a 3 for about the same price? The 3 is far superior.
The Yaris, the xB, and xA all ride on essentially the same platform. And they are all pretty chintzy and too trendy for my tastes. Besides, the Yaris hatch is squirrelly enough at speed, the xB is even worse. A bird flies by and you change lanes, they blow all over. Around town they are not bad so long as you do not mind the torqueless hairdryer 1.5L engine whining its guts out to move you around.
VelvetFoot
Top Post Dawg
I've been informed that side airbags and abs are minimum requirements.
We looked at a Prius, sat in a Yaris and drove the soon to be extinct Scion XA. They were all at the same dealer and apparently don't dicker for the Scion. The Scion XA came pretty well equipped with 5 speed, keyless entry, a/c, power windows and mirrors, nice radio w/xm, "ground effects" but NO cruise control, for $15,800. We drove an automatic around the area a little and it seemed pretty nice-upright position head doesn't touch roof. Not sure you can put a hitch on it.
I would have liked Yaris, but received negative feedback from Mrs. V on it-too spare. The front seating area seemed pretty spacious.
All those three cars don't have plastic inner fender liners which we VW people take for granted-they have to make a difference with rust.
The Prius is pretty expensive even for "Package 2" and they're not offering the $5k discount anymore and they seem to be scarce now.
We looked at a Prius, sat in a Yaris and drove the soon to be extinct Scion XA. They were all at the same dealer and apparently don't dicker for the Scion. The Scion XA came pretty well equipped with 5 speed, keyless entry, a/c, power windows and mirrors, nice radio w/xm, "ground effects" but NO cruise control, for $15,800. We drove an automatic around the area a little and it seemed pretty nice-upright position head doesn't touch roof. Not sure you can put a hitch on it.
I would have liked Yaris, but received negative feedback from Mrs. V on it-too spare. The front seating area seemed pretty spacious.
All those three cars don't have plastic inner fender liners which we VW people take for granted-they have to make a difference with rust.
The Prius is pretty expensive even for "Package 2" and they're not offering the $5k discount anymore and they seem to be scarce now.
Matt-98AHU
Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Honda Fit gets my vote. If I didn't have a VW, I'd probably have a Honda. It's a surprisingly peppy car with either manual or automatic (5 speeds for both I believe). I havn't driven one over 45 mph yet (only driven the one on a quick test drive, no freeway). But the impression that car left was large. Goes around corners like no one's business.
I, like oilhammer, have driven most of these cars. We both work in the auto repair business and test drive vehicles after things like brake jobs, wheel alignments and the like (primarily wheel alignments in my case. oilhammer is more versatile than me at the moment)
The Caliber is fairly large for this category. While yes, the very base model you can get a 1.8L with 15" tires, the models that we've had come through our shop from Enterprise Rent-A-Car (which normally aren't high-optioned, especially for a car like a Caliber) are all 2.4L with 17" STEEL wheels standard (with lots of tire left, the overall diameter for these things is staggering! Larger than most mid-size and full size cars).
I, like oilhammer, have driven most of these cars. We both work in the auto repair business and test drive vehicles after things like brake jobs, wheel alignments and the like (primarily wheel alignments in my case. oilhammer is more versatile than me at the moment
)The Caliber is fairly large for this category. While yes, the very base model you can get a 1.8L with 15" tires, the models that we've had come through our shop from Enterprise Rent-A-Car (which normally aren't high-optioned, especially for a car like a Caliber) are all 2.4L with 17" STEEL wheels standard (with lots of tire left, the overall diameter for these things is staggering! Larger than most mid-size and full size cars).
DPM
Top Post Dawg
Interesting that anyone would call a Yaris "squirrely", just proves that suspension setups are radically different for the US market. I drive my fathers D4-D and am continually impressed by it's sure-footedness at speed.
Oh, and it even has fender liners and a splashguard...
Oh, and it even has fender liners and a splashguard...
VelvetFoot
Top Post Dawg
I'll check again if I get there, but I'm pretty sure the Yaris I looked at did not have full fender liners-partial yes.
I'll look at a Fit as well.
I'll look at a Fit as well.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
DPM, your Yaris may not be the same as ours. Europe had the car called a Yaris years before we had one. The pics I have seen of those look like what is sold here now as the Prius, minus the hybrid driveline of course.
Our Yaris handles fine, it is on the highway that it gets scary. Here in the 'states we have MASSIVE tractor-trailer trucks, much larger than anything you have there, and I would bet going much faster. A car as small and light and upright as the Yaris literally can be blown clear off the road when one of these monster trucks flies past!
You got a pic of your Yaris?
Versus:
Our Yaris handles fine, it is on the highway that it gets scary. Here in the 'states we have MASSIVE tractor-trailer trucks, much larger than anything you have there, and I would bet going much faster. A car as small and light and upright as the Yaris literally can be blown clear off the road when one of these monster trucks flies past!
You got a pic of your Yaris?
Versus:
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Re: Dodge Caliber
I recently rented a Dodge Caliber from Enterprise for a 700-mile trip and was impressed with its highway manners. Felt really solid, nice comfortable ride, loads of space for a car that size.
I traveled the whole way at 72 mph and noted that the CVT transmission was turning the engine at only about 2500 rpm at that speed. I thought, "Wow, I'm going to be getting great mpg!" It turns out that I got 27-28 mpg for the trip...was quite surpised and disappointed.
I thought that the car had the smaller engine but it might have been the 2.3 Liter version.
Anyhow, if they could squeeze another 10 mpg on the highway, I'd seriously consider one.
I recently rented a Dodge Caliber from Enterprise for a 700-mile trip and was impressed with its highway manners. Felt really solid, nice comfortable ride, loads of space for a car that size.
I traveled the whole way at 72 mph and noted that the CVT transmission was turning the engine at only about 2500 rpm at that speed. I thought, "Wow, I'm going to be getting great mpg!" It turns out that I got 27-28 mpg for the trip...was quite surpised and disappointed.
I thought that the car had the smaller engine but it might have been the 2.3 Liter version.
Anyhow, if they could squeeze another 10 mpg on the highway, I'd seriously consider one.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Just to pour salt on your wound: you know the Caliber is available in the rest of the world with a Volkswagen TDI engine under the hood, right?
CoriolisSTORM
Veteran Member
So true, I'm hoping that when VW brings their 2.0L TDI over here, maybe we can get it then. As far as economy goes, a Caliber SE is available for about 14k. You would get a 1.8L w/ a 5 speed (only tranny available) and I think the 2.0L and CVT (only transmission available on the 2.0L) for about a thousand more.
I have the 2.4L w/CVT (FWD only) and get right at 30 (can get up to 34 with cruise control!) I know the 1.8L is rated at 30 (I thought, the fuel economy site says otherwise) Anyway, most people get about 32+ out of it, I am stomping all over the rated 21 and 25 for mine. Must be the new updated figures that were talked about a while back.
I have the 2.4L w/CVT (FWD only) and get right at 30 (can get up to 34 with cruise control!) I know the 1.8L is rated at 30 (I thought, the fuel economy site says otherwise) Anyway, most people get about 32+ out of it, I am stomping all over the rated 21 and 25 for mine. Must be the new updated figures that were talked about a while back.
In defense of the Caliber, I was one of the first people to rent that particular car (it had less than 1,000 miles on it) so maybe after break-in things would get better. And now that I think about it more, I'm pretty sure that it did have the 2.0 L engine.
I really liked the CVT tranny but noticed that I really had to floor it to merge into interstate traffic. My daughter kept saying, "Go Dad, go!" "I'm trying, I'm trying!" It finally dropped down a few "gears" and we able to merge okay but, being used to a 5-speed, the CVT took a little getting used to.
Nonetheless, I recently picked up a 2003 NB TDI in NC and drove it back to FL. Drove it like the Caliber at 72-73 mph (turning ~2500 rpm) and got 48.6 mpg (including 130 miles of city driving). Boy, if they put a TDI in the Caliber I'd be really interested!
I really liked the CVT tranny but noticed that I really had to floor it to merge into interstate traffic. My daughter kept saying, "Go Dad, go!" "I'm trying, I'm trying!" It finally dropped down a few "gears" and we able to merge okay but, being used to a 5-speed, the CVT took a little getting used to.
Nonetheless, I recently picked up a 2003 NB TDI in NC and drove it back to FL. Drove it like the Caliber at 72-73 mph (turning ~2500 rpm) and got 48.6 mpg (including 130 miles of city driving). Boy, if they put a TDI in the Caliber I'd be really interested!
DPM
Top Post Dawg
Yep OH, that's the New Yaris, same as the current one. Dad's is the earlier one, the hatch version of the US Echo, but with this little gem under the bonnet
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Yeah, try driving that little crackerbox on OUR highways with OUR trucks at 80 MPH and see how "tight" it feels! LOL!
Nice little diesel though. Don't you guys get the Mini with that engine as an option as well? 1.4L Toyota TD?
Nice little diesel though. Don't you guys get the Mini with that engine as an option as well? 1.4L Toyota TD?
DPM
Top Post Dawg
Previous gen Mini had that. New one uses Peugeot's 1.6HDI (and in a bizarre exchange, one of the hot Pug 207s uses a BMW engine)...
I'm intrigued tho. Have you ever been to Europe/ driven on our motorways? There's more to it that size and speed- relative distance comes into it and I'd guess our lanes are quite a bit narrower than yours.
I'm trying to recall that last time I've been a a vehicle being passed by a truck anyway- it's normally the other way round.
I'm intrigued tho. Have you ever been to Europe/ driven on our motorways? There's more to it that size and speed- relative distance comes into it and I'd guess our lanes are quite a bit narrower than yours.
I'm trying to recall that last time I've been a a vehicle being passed by a truck anyway- it's normally the other way round.
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
When you are in a small car, going say 70 MPH, and you try and overtake a big truck doing 65, the air that the truck is forcing to the side at its front end will push your car to the side as you get near the front of the truck. This force goes up exponentially the faster you are going.DPM said:
We share the highways with trucks that are HUGE and have 14L+ engines capable of moving them fully loaded to triple digit speeds. While this speed is not common, the Interstate I drive every day has more than its fair share of 80+ MPH trucks. Something the shape and weight of the Echo was never meant to share the highways with such vehicles. Its relatively tall straight sides, small stance, and wimpy metal means that they simply blow all over the road. City streets they are great, but around here we drive quite a bit on the Interstates. That is why those little cars simply won't ever catch on here in mass numbers like they do there. To us, a Golf or Jetta is "small". Most cars here are larger than that. The best sellers here are the Accord, Camry, and the Taurus was a pretty good seller. These are all cars that are equal to are larger than the current Passat. Our current Accord is a bloated whale compared to yours, which is sold here as the Acura TSX.
Your Dad may own a little tiny car, but older people here seem attracted to big land yachts....4000+ lb behemoths like the Mercury Grand Marquis, one of the silver hairs' favorites.
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
I drove the Yaris predecessor, the Echo (the Echo hatch was the previous generation Yaris in Europe). It was downright scary on the autoroute, a real white-knuckle, two hands on the wheel affair when large trucks or crosswinds were present. The new Yaris is better looking, but not much better from what I've read and heard, and even Consumer Reports which has a Toyota fetish called it disappointing. The Fit certainly is a much better, if somewhat less "cute" design. Very versatile, and the dashboard looks nice, and with gauges where they should be, in front of the driver (until I see an aircraft will all main flight gauges between the pilots, I will not buy a center-pod instrument car).
I'd put my money on the Fit. The Versa? Maybe. Looks a bit like a Renault. It is slightly larger but Nissan small-car reliability has been off somewhat lately.
I agree with the Mazda 3. A base model, for the money, would come closest to a real car. But beware. They are NOT that fuel efficient. I had one on rental once, with the higher output engine, and I got better mileage with a Chevy Impala on the same route...
In Canada at least, if you didn't care as much for fuel economy we have the Golf City for $15k. I drove one last week (garage loaner). Very solid car, much more stable than a Echo. The MkIV Golf is, IMHO, a great car. It will be safe, airbags and ABS all around.
But since you're in the US, no luck. Cars in the Fit/Yaris class are probably fine as around-town or around the 'burbs runabouts, but they're light...and those big rigs can blow mighty hard.
I'd put my money on the Fit. The Versa? Maybe. Looks a bit like a Renault. It is slightly larger but Nissan small-car reliability has been off somewhat lately.
I agree with the Mazda 3. A base model, for the money, would come closest to a real car. But beware. They are NOT that fuel efficient. I had one on rental once, with the higher output engine, and I got better mileage with a Chevy Impala on the same route...
In Canada at least, if you didn't care as much for fuel economy we have the Golf City for $15k. I drove one last week (garage loaner). Very solid car, much more stable than a Echo. The MkIV Golf is, IMHO, a great car. It will be safe, airbags and ABS all around.
But since you're in the US, no luck. Cars in the Fit/Yaris class are probably fine as around-town or around the 'burbs runabouts, but they're light...and those big rigs can blow mighty hard.
VelvetFoot
Top Post Dawg
I drove a Versa today. Interesting that it did not have ABS although it was otherwise well equipped. Also interesting that no rear discs. Nice but not sporty ride, large inside, rear seats don't fold flat. 6 speed manual gets less mpgs, 34, vs the cv, 36. Manual might be geared so that engine spins fast-ish.
Visited the local VW and Mazda dealer. Sad to see only the 5 cyl engine in the Beetles now-no turbo, never mind diesel. There was a well equipped 3 series with 17 in wheels sunroof, DSC, etc that was considerably less than the GTI there-the only turbo model, I guess. The Mazda is a Ford though, isn't it? We might drive the 3 tomorrow, but I'm thinking the sunroof will be knocking on the noggin.
Honda dealer guy said they get 2 Fits a month.
The Yaris' I looked at seem to have only hand crank window.
The Mrs. seems to have narrowed her wants in a new car: economy, style, 4 doors, ABS, side curtain airbags. She doesn't seem adverse to a Jetta Wagon TDI (as the only "hatchback" with the new diesel), although the price I'm sure will hardly make it an economy car. Will it be more than the Prius' Package 3 MSRP of $25 k (as I recall)?
PS: I shined up the Beetle and it looks like new.....
Visited the local VW and Mazda dealer. Sad to see only the 5 cyl engine in the Beetles now-no turbo, never mind diesel. There was a well equipped 3 series with 17 in wheels sunroof, DSC, etc that was considerably less than the GTI there-the only turbo model, I guess. The Mazda is a Ford though, isn't it? We might drive the 3 tomorrow, but I'm thinking the sunroof will be knocking on the noggin.
Honda dealer guy said they get 2 Fits a month.
The Yaris' I looked at seem to have only hand crank window.
The Mrs. seems to have narrowed her wants in a new car: economy, style, 4 doors, ABS, side curtain airbags. She doesn't seem adverse to a Jetta Wagon TDI (as the only "hatchback" with the new diesel), although the price I'm sure will hardly make it an economy car. Will it be more than the Prius' Package 3 MSRP of $25 k (as I recall)?
PS: I shined up the Beetle and it looks like new.....
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DPM
Top Post Dawg
oilhammer said:When you are in a small car, going say 70 MPH, and you try and overtake a big truck doing 65, the air that the truck is forcing to the side at its front end will push your car to the side as you get near the front of the truck. This force goes up exponentially the faster you are going.
We share the highways with trucks that are HUGE and have 14L+ engines capable of moving them fully loaded to triple digit speeds. While this speed is not common, the Interstate I drive every day has more than its fair share of 80+ MPH trucks. Something the shape and weight of the Echo was never meant to share the highways with such vehicles. Its relatively tall straight sides, small stance, and wimpy metal means that they simply blow all over the road. City streets they are great, but around here we drive quite a bit on the Interstates. That is why those little cars simply won't ever catch on here in mass numbers like they do there. To us, a Golf or Jetta is "small". Most cars here are larger than that. The best sellers here are the Accord, Camry, and the Taurus was a pretty good seller. These are all cars that are equal to are larger than the current Passat. Our current Accord is a bloated whale compared to yours, which is sold here as the Acura TSX.
Your Dad may own a little tiny car, but older people here seem attracted to big land yachts....4000+ lb behemoths like the Mercury Grand Marquis, one of the silver hairs' favorites.
Yup, so you've never been in Europe then...
oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Yes, I have. Ireland even! Tiny little island half the size of the state I live in! I drive enough ever couple days to drive coast-to-coast in your country. Different world here. Not saying one is better or worse than the other, just different.DPM said:
If we had such a smallish amount of space, and not do as much driving (mileage wise, anyways) we'd probably have more of thos little tiny cars on the road here.
It is funny, how different we are in that respect. Funny thing is, even in our urban areas, small cars are still not "the norm". Even in NYC, the taxi of choice is the big Ford Crown Victoria. Although London Taxi is selling cars here, they have not caught on yet.
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
Of course she could always find a nice used Golf TDI that would meet all her requirements: safe (ABS, discs all around, side airbags) and be economical. Quite shocking to see the Caliber fuel economy. My nice 200 hp Passat averages 30 mpg!!! And yet it has enough power to get out of its own way. Last night I was driving my son and his GF home from the Jazz Festival in Montreal. On a 2-lane road some drunk idiot in a beat-up semi-riced Civic doing about 80 km/h and weaving got pi$$ed off that I passed him (straight stretch, legal, no oncomign traffic) and gunned it as I went passed him, trying to prevent me from passing. What a laugh, I didn't even have to downshift from 6th. Then he started tailgating me and doing weird things right off my back bumper. I had to stop at at T-junction so I let him pass me, and I then followed him long enough to catch his plates, and called the cops on my cell. When I was following him he was trying to hassle me by slamming on the brakes, etc, but I got his plate and at the next intersection he went straight and I turned; I didn't play his game, just calmly called him in, with plate number, car type and colour, and description of the driver (young buzz-cut punk). What an idiot.
VelvetFoot
Top Post Dawg
I think we want new, and even if late model, no PD. The 5 cylinders aren't awe-inspiring, are they, and it looks like the only turbo gasser is in the GTI-that also takes at least mid-range octance if you don't want the knock sensor to kick in, no?
It's looking I'll be nursing the Beetle 'til mid '08 for the Jetta wagon, though its still running well, knock on wood.
It's looking I'll be nursing the Beetle 'til mid '08 for the Jetta wagon, though its still running well, knock on wood.
PlaneCrazy
Top Post Dawg
Well I always use premium to fill my Passat which has the same engine as the GTI. In Quebec premium is around $1. 15 per liter, give or take a few pennies. To put it in perspective, my fuel cost is approx. 9 to 9.5 cents per kilometer (avg to date 9.2), or about 15 cents per mile for fuel, on average; hits 10 cents (16 cents per km) in winter. Our B5.5 Passat TDI is about 7 cents, or about 11 cents per mile. Over the 20,000 miles or so I drive per year, the difference works out to $800 a year. Probably less in the US where fuel is cheaper, though our money is getting close to par.
I cannot "beat" Transport Canada numbers in the 2.0T like I can in the TDI, but I can match them, driving carefully at 100 km/h on smooth roads, and it will outrun the TDI by any measure. With the 70 liter tank, I have been able to easily achieve over 500 miles per tank; MFA says just over 550 would be possible with no reserves. This compares to about 700 in the B5.5 TDI.
I cannot "beat" Transport Canada numbers in the 2.0T like I can in the TDI, but I can match them, driving carefully at 100 km/h on smooth roads, and it will outrun the TDI by any measure. With the 70 liter tank, I have been able to easily achieve over 500 miles per tank; MFA says just over 550 would be possible with no reserves. This compares to about 700 in the B5.5 TDI.
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