injection pump priming help-now a broken pump

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
2000 new beetle manual. I just resealed the IP on it and am having an issue with priming and starting. I followed the walkthroughs found on here and it was basically the same as these two videos (yes i did both the top seals and the head seals)


now after i did the seal replacement i used a mityvac and pulled a vacuum on return port on the injection pump until i got a nice stream no bubbles. Now here is the strange part, with the lines cracked at the injectors i am not getting any fuel to cylinders 1 or 4, however 2 and 3 are getting fuel but it is only dribbling out. I have even went as far as to remove the lines for 1 and 4 and check for blockage and there was none. I also removed the shutoff solenoid to check for fuel there and when i turn it over fuel comes out of there. I am at a loss any help would be great.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
Keep in mind, the amount of fuel sent over to the injectors is very, very small............. not a stream!

So, this is how I do it: Once I am convinced that most or all of the air is out of the IP, I only bleed two injectors at a time. Sometimes it will take several attempts but it will finally fire-up. I've actually had engines to fire-up while attempting to bled with two injector line nuts loosened. Once I break the 17mm nuts loose, I only turn them about three-forth's of a turn..... not point to loosen them any more.

Long story short, about 5 years ago, I changed a frozen high miles fuel filter at 20f and wind blowing. I never had a mityvac. I used a 12 volt tire pump to push fuel thru the filter, hoses and IP. It was basically an observation process.......... prime filter, blow air, prime filter, etc. Then, I bled the injectors and the engine started... took several attempts and the wind was awful. So, you should be able to get yours going soon.
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
And that is my issue. I have pulled about 1/2 gallon through the IP, getting no air bubbles in the line to the mityvac think that i have it only to not have it start and when i crack any line it either dribbles out (2,3) or nothing at all (1,4)

edit: i have a feeling it is something really dumb i am missing or i've really messed something up bad. Can the IP be air locked in specific places and still let fuel go to the return line without bubbles being in it?
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Did you get the QA back on in the same place it was? How? Marks? Blobs of epoxy?

Did you back the head bolts out the minimum required to get the beeg o-ring replaced with the pump shaft timed as described?
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
I used a box knife to scribe the pump (going to use the vcds once i get it running to trim it in) and put it back. I used the box cutter to try and be more accurate than a sharpie.

I tried to keep the head as close to the body as described so i think that is OK, but i understand things to not always go as planned. Is there any way to check to see if a shim has gotten out of place besides tearing the entire pump down? i really do not want to pull the pump at this point unless i have to.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Remove the QA. You can see down inside the IP if you suck all the fuel out. Magnetic stick, not a magnet on a stick but one that wont come off!
Putting the shim back in, remove the ip and disassemble completely the head.
Sorry. If you kept the cam and loves at the peak during the job and the seal just was barely accessible, the shim is fine. Timing being off or even 180* backwards or whatever would NOT cause a no fuel issue you have. Move to making sure that both harnesses are connected and that 12v is going to the fuel shutoff. Make sure anything you removed is properly installed like mounting tabs on the harness, those are grounds.
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
I'll check all my harnesses to make sure i got them fully inserted. As for the solenoid I did think of that as well and put an tested it out with a meter and put an idiot lite on it to test it out. I can hear it clicking on and off and the light goes on when the key is on and also when turning over. One thing about it when i initially removed it to do the head the plunger stuck in the hole and i had to retrieve it out and put it back together. Could the plunger sticking down be the issue or would it get forced up? Also if the shim did fall out would the pump turn at all or would it interfere and grenade the pump making all sorts of horrible noise?

thanks for the help everyone
 

Metal Man

Vendor
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Location
Sunbury,PA 17801
TDI
1998 NB TDI, 2006 Jetta TDI, 2014 Tiguan gas, , 2019 E Golf X2
As for priming the only way I've been able to do them is force feed the fuel from above. I suspend a funnel from the hood with an in line fuel filter in the line to the pump. They start quick this way.
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
As for priming the only way I've been able to do them is force feed the fuel from above. I suspend a funnel from the hood with an in line fuel filter in the line to the pump. They start quick this way.
Yep! Overhead fueling will push the air out rather quick.

Below is a pic of an apparatus I made back in 2012 using Jif Peanut Butter jar, old broke plastic tee, hose, slim bolt thru the lid for hanger mount, filter and JB Weld. I've used it numerous times. JB Weld will hold up to Diesel Fuel or any additives! Just don't forget to tighten the lid. I have added a small shut-off valve and plugs for the obvious reasons.

 
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BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
I've only installed a dry pump on the VE twice. I simply connected a long clear hose to the return port, sucked on it until I got a steady stream, reconnect, crack all 4 injectors, rags, crank briefly.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I'll check all my harnesses to make sure i got them fully inserted. As for the solenoid I did think of that as well and put an tested it out with a meter and put an idiot lite on it to test it out. I can hear it clicking on and off and the light goes on when the key is on and also when turning over. One thing about it when i initially removed it to do the head the plunger stuck in the hole and i had to retrieve it out and put it back together. Could the plunger sticking down be the issue or would it get forced up? Also if the shim did fall out would the pump turn at all or would it interfere and grenade the pump making all sorts of horrible noise?

thanks for the help everyone
The solenoid plunger usually stays in the bore when you remove the solenoid. Could apply 12V to it directly and listen for the click if you suspect it.

If it the shim dropped it might get tossed around and damage the pump in addition to the pump plunger bearing directly on the cam plate but it sounds like you did it "correctly" so it should still be in place.

Did you try moving the QA arm before installing the cover to verify it could move and the arm engaged the collar on the shaft properly? Cycle the key with the cover off to see the arm do its cycle?
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
sorry for the delay it appears the worst for me has happened it appears i dropped the shim (see picture attached) the pump appears to be toast at this point. Now i need some advise. I just did the timing belt 10k ago so i really do not want to do a whole timing belt swap again. the car has 360k on it (i just want to get to 500k in a car) but i do not want to spend 1k on a pump. I see a couple of pumps here fs but they appear to be pulls from junk yards with no history. I have a local you pull it yard that has a 98 jetta tdi i could go scab the pump off of and reseal it (hopefully correct this time) or other options of which i do not know what those would be. Anyway give me your opinions please i'm not really sure which direction to head at this point.

 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Some junk yards and car-part.com guarantee their stuff to work.
It has been said (by OH), the TB tensioner is a single use item.
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
Sorry i found the answer out for this question (will a 98 fit on a 00, not really)

Thanks for the info on the tb tensioner I will look into it and if i need to replace i will.
 
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AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
The Tensioner may be said to be a one time use item, but how many times have they been tensioned only to need to be loosened to correct the timing because after those first two rotations of the engine everything wasn't where it was supposed to be. I've re-tensioned several of them with no negative results. Now, if someone tightened the hell out of the nut and crushed the aluminum center piece, well, yes, it needs to be replaced and the bolt too. I'd install a new/used IP and move on. Or, maybe you can source a new tensioner for peace of mind! (here for availability and comparison: https://www.autohausaz.com/catalog/...gaskets/5721-timing_belt_tensioner?s=d&page=1 )

OP, sorry that the shim dropped out. There's really not much wiggle room when easing the IP head out just enough to remove the big O-ring. Maintain spring tension on the head is the key!
 

csstevej

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Location
north nj
TDI
2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
You can also try Dutch auto over in the netherlands. He has great service and good prices and guarantees his product.
I had a serviceable head delivered to me in seven days as Frank here in the states didn’t have one at the time .
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
The Tensioner may be said to be a one time use item, but how many times have they been tensioned only to need to be loosened to correct the timing because after those first two rotations of the engine everything wasn't where it was supposed to be. I've re-tensioned several of them with no negative results. ...........................snip....................................
Yea, so have I. Just passing along what I've read from Oilhammer, who pretty much is always spot on. But I would not hesitate to go with the belt kit on the car at 10k.
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
Are you saying you do an entire timing belt again or just the accessories I’m a little confused sorry
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Did you have the motor clocked in the correct position before starting the job?

Kinda looks like the plunger broke??? Bending load from rotation when the shim got a little out of place? Did you tighten the head bolts in a cross pattern?

Said it before: I don't see any reason to replace the tensioner. The cycling it sees when winding it up one, two or 20 times on installation is nothing compared to what it gets while running. There're those one time use bolts but off hand I don't think that any need to be removed to change the pump.
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
So new/used pump it is with the pump listed in the following URL work I'm referring to the 11 mm one I understand I'll have to do timing on it and have to do a quantity adjustment on it as well

 

fatmobile

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Location
north iowa
TDI
an ALH M-TDI in a MK2, a 2000 Jetta, 2003 wagon
Don't toss your old pump.
It just needs a new high pressure head.

I've even heard of someone swapping heads while the pump is on the car.
He glued all the rollers and cam in place with grease.
Color me impressed.
I'd use vasoline if I ever had to try that..
He did it on a 1st gen cummins 6BT.

Those videos don't tell you to use an 8m1 bolt,
through the dial gauge hole, a MK1 thing, not sure what to call that bolt hole on a TDI.
As the head pulls away from the pump,
the bolt is tightened to press on the end of the shaft and hold the guts together.
I just tried this with an ALH pump.
It doesn't work.
The hole narrows down so far that it'd have to be something really skinny
to fit through the hole and press on the plunger.
Works on the old 1.6s and cummins 6BT, maybe the AHU but not the ALH.

Also first time posted,.. a special tool in my kit.
Drum roooolll,.... my cup trick:

Makes it easy to just roll the oring up over the head.
No I'm not getting any kickbacks from caseys for the product placement.
 
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AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
In the link below, scroll down to Post #770 to see how I did the IP re-seal and issues I had to deal with. Also, scroll on down to Post #777 for loads of Pics and Narrative. (Vaseline and a Paper Clip was how I held things together during re-assembly)

 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
if it was me, buy used pump for $200 on ebay, put new seals on it on a work bench top and make sure your good before swapping the pumps. move on with life. usually the used pumps are just leaky or work fine. worst case, you go thought 3 used pumps and seal kits before its fixed, still cheaper than a rebuilt pump for $1000. you can usually buy them online and send them to that rebuild shop in OR for about $850 Or just buy a new one. either way, that sucks.

also CUP TRICK FTW, used that a few times.
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
OK so i got a used pump from a fellow here on tdiclub. I got a set of seals to replace them on the bench. The top two went just fine. With the pump separated where i could see the quantity adjuster i thought I would spin the pump over so i could get it pushed as far forward as i could. Here is where i stopped it was nearly impossible to rotate the pump by hand. I do not want to break another pump is this normal or am i doing something that will damage yet another pump?

thanks
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
It will be difficult since you're compressing the springs. It'll get harder as you approach the maximum lift then it'll turn on its own as the cam plate rides back down the rollers then get harder again. Should have the plugs on the injector line connections loose so you're not compressing air and fuel as you turn it. Not sure it'll matter since the delivery valves are still there but can't hurt.

If you install the timing lock pin I think you'll be close to TDC on the pump stroke.

I'd have left the QA off while you're doing the head seal so you can see what's going on inside.
 

emp

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Location
USA
TDI
2000 NB
I have not done the head seal yet on this one I was getting ready to but when I went to compress everything I got concerned so I stopped and thought I would ask here so I don’t destroy a second pump.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
you can take the head completely off if you put the IP in a vertical position. makes seal job freaking easy peasy.
you need a jig to hold the IP and a 24" bar on a socket to really move it easily. no way your doing it with a vice and a 12" socket wrench and keep it lobe to lobe. on the engine your using the engines crank sprocket to rotate the belt and you end up using the advantage of the small sprocket vs the IPs large sprocket. You can move it if you had it solid mounted with a 18" bar but 24 is cake.
IMO i would not even bother trying to rotate it. put the hear up to the sky, take it off, new ring and a cleaning, assemble and replace all the other seals like the one on the back of the IP. install, prime, go drive!
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Good point about doing it upright so guts stay in place. Just need to be careful dirt doesn't fall in. And that the plunger doesn't drop out of the head.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Over the years, if there is any one thing everyone did in my shop, it's break the distributor shaft in the pump head.. Sure, you feel dumb as a rock, but the point is, to work the pump still attached to the engine is just begging for trouble. Each of the screws that hold the head onto the body of the pump should be turned equally, because when you hear that high metallic 'PING!', its your glass-hard distributor shaft turning into 2 pieces... $400 down the drain.

Just sticking in another pump head onto the body is not the answer. The stroke for the mainshaft to the distributor shaft for the spacer shim, come in measurements of .05mm, if I recall correctly and just because you get a pump head with a shim doesn't mean it fits your body. The thing about Bosch is they used to make the old pumps so you had a setting for stroke at .039" (1mm) and that's just about what it still is.

The other day, one of my less skilled customers lost the shim and asked me to send him one. After trying to get through to him that 'some shim' isn't going to work, and then insulting me with some stuff about just trying to work him to get pump business, I don't have much sympathy left for him.

If you can't get it done, find someone who can. If you break parts, yes, there are a ton of pumps out there, in all sorts of varying shape. Some good, some not so good. Good luck.

As for priming pumps, the technique offered here is painfully slow in my book. With all fittings tightened, remove the return fuel line from the #4 injector, attach a vacuum source and draw vacuum until fuel comes up the #4 return line. The idea is that the VE pump is actually nothing more than a reservoir. Once you get enough fuel to submerge the pump head, it will flow fuel into the distributor shaft. For speed, we use an electric vacuum pump, attached to a reservoir. You don't want to pull fuel into your vacuum pump.

If there is any single problem with restarting a pump that has been reset, it's that moving the IQ body too far to the timing belt side of the engine will keep the engine from getting enough fuel to start. Also, it is better that the timing be advanced and the fuel IQ number be low. You can make and engine start with too much fuel and advanced timing. Not enough fuel and retarded timing, not so much... Another tip... removing your glow plugs will cause two things to happen. Your engine will spin much faster and you can actually tell if your injectors are fueling, because mist will come out the glow plug hole. The other benefit, if you have VCDS, the engine will turn fast enough you can get some idea of injection timing and IQ.

Another thing about the guy who needed a shim... after working for hours with him, and this all done without VCDS (please don't waste your time doing that...) he tells me after all my wasted efforts, it was the crank sensor that was bad. Instead of wasting hours of my time, VCDS would have found that in literally seconds. "Bad Crank Sensor". Or, as the adage goes, "Common Sense is, unfortunately, entirely too uncommon."
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Sounds like he was the one working you. For free advice he ignored.

This guy says he got a new pump not just the head but your advice applies.

Thanks for the info on the head and shim. There's sometimes talk on the site about installing the bigger head on the five speed pump rather than swapping the whole pump. Not sure why one would want to do it but looks like it's a bad idea.
 
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