Franko6 Nozzle Balancing

Nevada_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
I received a text message today from someone who had been told Frank's TDI does not have the proper equipment to set the second stage pressures in injector/nozzle sets. This is untrue, and I don't know who would start crap like this. Frank has been building and rebuilding injector/nozzle sets for years, eleven or twelve years ago Frank set up the best balanced, cleanest running nozzles I have ever had. In fact Frank is building me a set of injector/nozzles right now. I only wish the last time I had nozzle updates I wish I would have sent them to Frank.
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
I can testify to that. I had sent him my set of injectors that are currently in my car. They were from a hotswap program from another vendor, supposedly build and ready to go. Balance was waaaayyy off, black smoke badly, and poor fuel economy. This is after only 2 months of install.

Sent them to Frank. He repaired them, ended up having to replace two nozzles, and got them running great. He even put them in his own car to test.

As soon as I got them, I checked balance. Both at idle and 1400rpm. Spot on. Several months later, balance still on the money. Guy is a blessing to us here.
 

Nevada_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
That was my error and thank you for pointing it out. What I meant was there were only two people that responded to this thread, and I knew there is a significantly larger number of members that have used his services.
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
I thought I had missed something lol. My new .216 injectors were balanced by Frank. No trouble so far.
 

MATPOC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
I can testify to that. I had sent him my set of injectors that are currently in my car. They were from a hotswap program from another vendor, supposedly build and ready to go. Balance was waaaayyy off, black smoke badly, and poor fuel economy. This is after only 2 months of install.

Sent them to Frank. He repaired them, ended up having to replace two nozzles, and got them running great. He even put them in his own car to test.

As soon as I got them, I checked balance. Both at idle and 1400rpm. Spot on. Several months later, balance still on the money. Guy is a blessing to us here.
How do you test balance?
I'm new to this TDI thing, lots to learn...
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
You'll need VCDS, under engine, basic settings, check group 13. You want balance between each injector as close to zero as possible, and all as close to each other. You want this at idle, and at 1400rpms. Max that can be adjusted is +/-2 but a well balanced injector will be +/- 0.2
 

MATPOC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
You'll need VCDS, under engine, basic settings, check group 13. You want balance between each injector as close to zero as possible, and all as close to each other. You want this at idle, and at 1400rpms. Max that can be adjusted is +/-2 but a well balanced injector will be +/- 0.2
Apparently I have VCDS, found KII USB in the trunk... downloaded software and was able to read codes and erase them, but other than that I have no idea what I'm doing.. It's a 2003 JSW ALH
 

MATPOC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
You'll need VCDS, under engine, basic settings, check group 13. You want balance between each injector as close to zero as possible, and all as close to each other. You want this at idle, and at 1400rpms. Max that can be adjusted is +/-2 but a well balanced injector will be +/- 0.2
this is idle



and this is 1400 rpm

 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
I'm not sure if you can tell if it's been tuned by looking at that last screen. You could check egr duty cycle, and see if it boosts greater than 18psi, both indicators of a tune.

As for your injector balance, 2 and 3 are a little on the imbalanced side, but it's not that bad. 1 and 4 look great though. I'd leave it alone, unless you're experiencing ruunning, fuel economy, or smoking issues.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Rocketchip puts a designator in the Component field that indicates the tune.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Note: cylinder balance is NOT just the injectors. It is the power contribution of that cylinder and the number is what the ECU is doing fuel quantity wise to adjust anything that is "off". A healthy, normal ALH, will have numbers less than +/- 1.00, but even numbers in the +/- 1.50 range will still rarely manifest themselves as a poorly running engine from the driver's seat. Intake port cleanliness, injection pump (check valves), compression, etc. can also all contribute to cylinder balance. Not to mention a DMF that is coming apart/jammed off to one end of its travel.
 

Nevada_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
I'm not sure if you can tell if it's been tuned by looking at that last screen. You could check egr duty cycle, and see if it boosts greater than 18psi, both indicators of a tune.

As for your injector balance, 2 and 3 are a little on the imbalanced side, but it's not that bad. 1 and 4 look great though. I'd leave it alone, unless you're experiencing ruunning, fuel economy, or smoking issues.
Nero Morg,
If stock boost pressure on a stock ALH is 12PSI (1565 Millibar) I would imagine a Stage 3 tune will show 1792 millibar, or close to that, so anything above 1565 millibar requested should indicate a tune has been installed?
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
I'm not really sure to be honest. I always thought stock max sustained boost was 15-16ish,which would put it closer to 2500mbar. I know the stock Vnt15 can do a max of 18psi, so it'd make sense that stock tune would be just below that.
 

MATPOC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
I'm not really sure to be honest. I always thought stock max sustained boost was 15-16ish,which would put it closer to 2500mbar. I know the stock Vnt15 can do a max of 18psi, so it'd make sense that stock tune would be just below that.

1000mb = 1bar = 14.5psi (approximate atmospheric pressure at sea level, although if you want to get technical 1 atmosphere is about 14.7psi )
so, VW boost is displayed in absolute pressure, i.e. zero boost reads about 1000mb (999 currently according co my car) so conventional gauge would display 0 psi while car says 999mb or 14.5psi
When I accelerate according to VCDS requested boost is about 2000mb (29psi), which means it wants 1000mb (14.5psi) boost
What I'm getting with my stock turbo and stuck vanes/bad actuator(?) is excess of 2500mb (over36psi) literally off the screen, that is more than 22psi of boost (36-14.5=21.5) which sends it in to limp mode and sets P0234 overboost code.


Red-RPM
Green- requested boost
Yellow- actual boost
Grey- N75 signal
Blue - throttle position

 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
Sounds like you are not tuned, and you have some turbo work to do :)
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Brian is right. If you don't have all the prerequisites for a good engine, injectors won't matter. An engine will operate ok with the injectors deviating +/- 1.5. But it will run better if there is no deviation. We have demonstrated moving injectors by swapping them, with the purpose to prove whether any deviation follows the injector or the cylinder. This is a quick method to diagnose injector and/ or engine quality.

If you make each injector's idle balance as close to 0.0 at idle and at 1575 rpm, Every positive thing; economy, power, smoothness, improves. Depending on the nozzles, using this method, we have improved markedly over the previous methods we have used. One set we made is getting extreme mileage from some stock ALH manual trans Bosch 706 nozzles. But the truism was, "It couldn't pass anything except a gas station." I'm good with that. On a long haul, the injectors got nearly 70mpg.

None of this idle balance question touches on the initial pop pressures or the elusive 2nd stage pop, the importance of spray patterning, clean, precise fuel metering and volume from each nozzle and leak-down, all which will affect engine performance.
 

Nevada_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
Frank, always good to hear from you. It is always great to get the truth from someone who knows what is still is. One thing I have always noticed from you, is you never say you are right, and everybody else is not, trying to get business.
I mean this in the best way possible, you don't need to advertise to get business in your shop. Generally speaking you are as busy as a one-legged man in an a$$ kicking contest, and that is not a bad thing. :)
 

MATPOC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
Yes, I agree, Frank has been very insightful and helpful beyond this thread, I emailed him with questions and got a detailed reply even though I am just a newb on the forum with a million dumb questions.

Looks like I have sticky vanes and will be fixing that first before getting in to injectors and performance
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis (where it's safe)
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I'd like to point out, that it is pretty amazing the ALHs can run as well as they do given the basic diesel injection system is fairly basic and pretty dated (even when the ALH was new). Probably also why they hold up so well and require such little attention so long as the basics are cared for properly. Plus, they are pretty forgiving even if everything is not exactly picture perfect. They'll still start reliably, run reasonably well, and return good fuel economy.
 

Nevada_TDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
Location
Reno, sort of...
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI
I sent my injectors and nozzles to Frank last week, we have spoken a couple times since then.
He explained to me one of the nozzles wasn't seating properly, so he diamond polished it until it was right-I believe about 10 minutes... He fixed my bad nozzle before I ever spoke to him, I sent him my new nozzles, and he was willing to try them.
I believe he charged me 10 minutes extra labor, instead of, "Your nozzles are crap, you need to buy the ones that I sell or I won't warranty them..." You all know who I mean. Frank and I have known each other 10 or 12 years, and I asked him to see if "X" brand nozzles were worth selling...the definitive answer is no. When we were on the phone he told me exactly what he was doing and the spray patterns, and the pop pressures, and second stage balance. I have had nozzles installed on three different sets of injectors, and they were done somewhere else and the never walked me through the process like Frank had.

To be fair, after I get the injectors installed I will critique power, smoke, throttle response, and fuel economy over the next couple of weeks.
 

Fahrvegnugen

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Location
Burlington Vt
TDI
01 golf 1.9 alh gls silver
I got Frank nozzle services in November. One body leaked. Threadlocker fixed it. If I get some time I’ll post the balances. Injectors in Cylinder one and two are now swapped from their originally intended positions. Could this be of consequence?

His Great services, skills and the sharing of knowledge is appreciated by me too
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Fahrvegnugen said: "One body leaked. Threadlocker fixed it. "

I don't think I have found that the injectors will often leak between the body and the nozzle unless I made a 'bonehead' mistake. The injector nozzle nut should be tightened from a point the nut is snug, then add a 30 degree turn. I have to admit, there are occasions the nut is tightened to about 30 ft lbs and I miss the step to tighten them the extra 1/6th turn. There should be no need for threadlocker.

I would preferred that you had contacted me prior to fixing them. I apologize for my assembly error.

If I did make that tightening error, the nozzle will produce about .2 mg/ Str. difference in the reading. I know in most people's minds that is comparatively insignificant, but as I have said before, the closer the nozzles compare, the better they run.

Let me know if there is anything else we need to discuss, Fahrvegnugen. Call, text or PM.
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
And that's why I always appreciate Frank. Always willing to accept his mistakes and correct it as soon as possible. You're a legend man.
 

Fahrvegnugen

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Location
Burlington Vt
TDI
01 golf 1.9 alh gls silver
If they bubble around the base it’s likely the crush washer. If it’s the hard line on top you can see it. Mine was just dribbling fuel on the outside at the base with no bubbles leading me to the injector body. If they leak internally the deviation would show an issue or the piston would melt.

Frank you offered to have me send them back to you but I knew I’d struggle with that. Monkeying, I put one of my old ones on the vice to try measuring the torque with a crows foot and the wrench slipped off mangling the nut, so I couldn’t send them without the car down. I then used a closed end offset wrench to try retightening the one that was leaking using the 30ft lbs + 1/6 turn and it still leaked. I also was being so careful reinstalling it I dropped it on the ground!
They seem to be running fine and I’m happy with everything. The more stuff I do the more stuff breaks. I’ll just be watching the fuel economy and deviation and will keep in touch only if I have good news to share :)
 

MATPOC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Location
Providence, near Hope
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon 5-speed
If they bubble around the base it’s likely the crush washer. If it’s the hard line on top you can see it. Mine was just dribbling fuel on the outside at the base with no bubbles leading me to the injector body. If they leak internally the deviation would show an issue or the piston would melt.
I have no external leaks on injectors (pump has small leak) wondering of they drip in to the motor after car is turned off
 
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