Ethanol used to partially fuel a TDI engine???...

[josh8loop]

Fellas,

During some recent research on Ethanol addition to gasoline engine and the severe consequences to fuel injection system components and rubber elastomers I came across a YouTube video mentioning the use of Ethanol to fuel a Diesel engine. It seemed curious to me since diesel is a lubricant for injection pumps and Ethanol certainly isn't a lubricant. I stumbled across this link about Ethanol fumigation into a VW TDI engine. Thought I would share:

http://www.mncorn.org/sites/mncorn....ts/201206/EthanolUtilization-DieselEngine.pdf

 

[LarBear]

Since diesel fuel is energy dense, and alcohol isn't, about the only advantage I can see for trying to figure out a way to use alcohol in diesels is to make the corn farmers happy. Maybe I'm just cynical, but EPA is very hot to increase the percentage of EtOH in gasoline whether or not it has any benefits, except in their dreams, and to corn farmers.

If alcohol were such a benefit for gasoline engines people would be clamoring for more and more alcohol to be added to the gas at the pump. Nobody is except for the corn farmers and those in the EPA who can't seem to understand that except from sugar cane the production of alcohol generally costs more to produce than the energy received from it.

I have nothing against corn or corn farmers, I love to eat corn, and although I love grass fed beef, corn fed ain't bad either. As a fuel it's expensive, produces poor mileage even compared to gasoline, and outside of racing engines where it's hardly used anymore it's a waste. JMHO though.

 

[Maffken]

Ethanol is a great fuel that is widely used throughout South America and has established its self as a good alternative option, however they have had time to redesign their cars/market and they do not use corn which does not produce good yields for fuel.

It's not an ethanol problem, it's the corn's.

Biodiesel and other related fuels are much easier to produce and have higher yields based off of crops in the majority of the US. That's why they make sense, not because of the fuel but what makes the fuel.

The future isn't just going to be one market, they'll be ethanol, biodiesel, Hydrogen, fuel cells, electrical and chemical energy combined with the use of things like solar, wind, heat, geothermal.

Just trying to push Ethanol across the US doesn't make any sense. We're too big and varied for that.

 

[cooter2]

Okay, I have a question on this. Everyone always comments on how bad ethanol is on engines (Disclaimer: my family farms and makes a living on ag). But has anyone here or does anyone here know of anyone that had an engine go bad because of using Ethanol?

We run 10% in all our vehicles. I just put a new motor in at 236,000 miles on my alero, I don't necessarily think that it needed a new motor because of ethanol. Almost every vehicle that comes through our family gets over 200k.

Does anyone really have an engine problem the can be attributed to ethanol?

I am being sincere and not trying to cause a flame war one way or another. I just have never heard anything about all these horror stories that was real.

In addition, most ppl (outside those on this forum) get arid of their vehicles long before 200k where it would no be an issue anyway.

 

[40X40]

Since diesel fuel is energy dense, and alcohol isn't, about the only advantage I can see for trying to figure out a way to use alcohol in diesels is to make the corn farmers happy. Maybe I'm just cynical, but EPA is very hot to increase the percentage of EtOH in gasoline whether or not it has any benefits, except in their dreams, and to corn farmers.

If alcohol were such a benefit for gasoline engines people would be clamoring for more and more alcohol to be added to the gas at the pump. Nobody is except for the corn farmers and those in the EPA who can't seem to understand that except from sugar cane the production of alcohol generally costs more to produce than the energy received from it.

I have nothing against corn or corn farmers, I love to eat corn, and although I love grass fed beef, corn fed ain't bad either. As a fuel it's expensive, produces poor mileage even compared to gasoline, and outside of racing engines where it's hardly used anymore it's a waste. JMHO though.

MTBE or Ethanol? Time to google up!

Bill

 

[Mechnurse]

The problem is with the older vehicle fuel systems as you increase the Ethanol content it increases the amount of water that can be absorbed. This in turn increases the potential for corrosion along with many other issues.

 

[showdown 42]

Cooter2, Take a troll on any Marine engine web site and you will get an ear full of the horror stories, I've had multiple issues with my boats caused by E-10. I lost a perfectly good 75hp outboard to a blown head caused by water absorption from e-10. $7500 for a new engine,2 carb rebuilds at $500 each. Most car manufacturers have stated anything more than 10% E will void their warranties.
Mileage is also negatively by this phoney junk fuel . It's a totally politically pushed product,by Wash to get votes from the farm belt, otherwise why wouldn't we buy the stuff from the Brazilians for 25% less money than our own subsidized ethanol. Can you tell how I feel about this subject?
Ethanol is a crap fuel that reduces mileage and power and causes degradation of many rubber fittings .

 

[sirpuddingfoot]

Does anyone really have an engine problem the can be attributed to ethanol?

Ethanol is not typically a problem in engines that are run frequently. In engines that are run infrequently, it can be a major problem. Your lawnmower that won't start after a winter, your snowblower that won't start after the summer, your motorcycle that hasn't been ridden in 3 months, that collector car that only gets 400 miles a year, etc.

Ethanol absorbs water from the air further degrading the fuel.

Ethanol breaks gasoline down into varnish that at best coats and clogs carburetors and injectors (this is why your lawnmower doesn't start), but can build up on intake valves and cause catastrophic failure.

I make every effort to use non-oxygenated (ethanol free) gasoline in all my gas powered engines.

 

[oilhammer]

Does anyone really have an engine problem the can be attributed to ethanol?

.

Yes. Pretty much everyone that manufactures gasoline engines. Toyota, GM, Honda, Stihl, Volkswagen, Tecumseh, etc. They all have TSBs and stuff on the overuse of ethanol in gasoline fuel.

In addition to what sirpuddingfoot said, the other problem is poor mixing. The pump may say 10%, your car may tolerate 10 or even 15%, but you may actually find that poor mixing practices get it as high as 30% at some locations. While newer vehicles are more tolerant than older ones, they can still have issues if the percentage is over a certain amount they were designed to deal with. In the auto repair industry, we have seen a sharp increase in fuel pump, injector, sensor, etc. component failures when they started using the MTBE and other ethanol components to the gasoline mix. And I'm not sure how well any of the additives that claim to neutralize it does. I run nothing but Motomix stuff in my Stihl engines, because I want my $800 chain saw to start every single time I need it, even if 6 months pass by. I wish it was easier to buy ethanol-free gasoline for some of the other equipment, but it just isn't around here. My Kohler engine in one of my pieces of lawn equipment (John Deere LT155 riding mower) is getting its 3rd carburetor in 15 years because the ethanol turns the plastic body into goo and pits up the metal bits like it was sitting in water.

 

[LarBear]

MTBE or Ethanol? Time to google up!
Bill

As far as I know MTBE hasn't been used as an additive for gasoline for a long time due to toxicity and possibly other problems. Didn't mention MTBE at all, and it's not derived from the fermentation of corn anyway. Oh, and I detest Google.

 

[TDI Mason]

In addition to what sirpuddingfoot said, the other problem is poor mixing. The pump may say 10%, your car may tolerate 10 or even 15%, but you may actually find that poor mixing practices get it as high as 30% at some locations.

I would tend to agree with this.

I have a lot of small engine powered equipment. Some get used fairly regular and others can sit for a year between uses. I have had a few carburetors get gunked up really bad while another sits just as long or longer without any issue. I have found my issues to be totally random, so inconsistent ethanol mixtures might explain it.

 

[atc98002]

...
I make every effort to use non-oxygenated (ethanol free) gasoline in all my gas powered engines.

No such animal in my neck of the woods. There is one 76 station in town that sells specialty fuels, but I think they are mainly racing fuels (Pacific Raceways is just outside my town). In my travels for work I am occasionally in Oklahoma, and I did notice pure gasoline advertised there. Never seen it in the Seattle area though.

 

[40X40]

As far as I know MTBE hasn't been used as an additive for gasoline for a long time due to toxicity and possibly other problems. Didn't mention MTBE at all, and it's not derived from the fermentation of corn anyway. Oh, and I detest Google.

Ethanol is the oxygenate that was chosen to replace MTBE.

Bill

 

[john.jackson9213]

Ethanol is the oxygenate that was chosen to replace MTBE.

Bill

You are both correct in some parts. MBTE was the first oxygenate and it was toxic to the water supply. Ethanol was pushed by the Bush Administration, Agra-Business (like ADM), and Farm State Representative/Senators who brought home the pork for more political contributions.
By the way. CARB did not want ethanol, CARB wanted reformulated Gasoline as being better and less expensive.
Guess I will be buying aviation gas for my power mower.

 

[showdown 42]

FL just passed a law that allows pure gas to be sold in every gas station . This is very important for the marine crowd and people with vintage cars. I'm loving it.

 

[Daekar]

If ethanol is desirable as a fuel, why are all the EPA mileage tests for gassers done with ethanol-free gas? Exactly.

 

[sdubois]

Oilhammer: I believe ethanol free premium is still sold at one station in Kingdom City, I go not far from there about every other week, if you ever want me to pick some up let me know

 

[40X40]

If ethanol is desirable as a fuel, why are all the EPA mileage tests for gassers done with ethanol-free gas? Exactly.

Because that is the specification for the tests? If you go changing the test specs wily-nilly it makes it impossible to compare tests done under the old spec to those done under the new spec.

THIMK.

Bill

 

[40X40]

FL just passed a law that allows pure gas to be sold in every gas station . This is very important for the marine crowd and people with vintage cars. I'm loving it.

That is a very good idea. Stabil fuel treatment takes care of my small engine needs, but I'd not like to buy enough of that to treat a BOAT.

EPA dictates of local fuel requirements badly need a review. Kansas City had an extended heat wave several years ago and we have had to use a very expensive summer fuel since then... even in moderate temperatures. WHY?

Bill

 

[john.jackson9213]

That is a very good idea. Stabil fuel treatment takes care of my small engine needs, but I'd not like to buy enough of that to treat a BOAT.

EPA dictates of local fuel requirements badly need a review. Kansas City had an extended heat wave several years ago and we have had to use a very expensive summer fuel since then... even in moderate temperatures. WHY?

Bill

Because the air pollution standards are above the max levels more than X number of days in the summer. If KC is now meeting pollution standards, it is because of the summer fuel! See, the EPA is for your health.

 

[40X40]

Because the air pollution standards WERE ONCE above the max levels more than X number of days in the summer. If KC is now meeting pollution standards, it is because of the summer fuel! See, the EPA is for your health.

Fixed it for you.

We met them every year until there was an extended heat wave. Now we have to use that "special" crap even when we don't have a heat wave.

I long for the days of responsive government agencies untainted by the lunatic fringe.

Bill

 

[Daekar]

Because that is the specification for the tests? If you go changing the test specs wily-nilly it makes it impossible to compare tests done under the old spec to those done under the new spec.
THIMK.
Bill

My belief is that if they're going to mandate ethanol in gasoline at specific concentrations, then the tests should be conducted at those concentrations. After all, they changed the tests before, rendering before and after comparison illogical. Why should the tests not change with conditions? They exist to give consumers an idea of the mileage they'll get in the real world with real world fuel, and for no other reason. They sure as heck don't exist so some forum bean counters can compare fuel efficiency across vehicle generations - those cars have already been sold and don't concern anybody except the lawyers and service departments.

Or are you telling me that deceiving consumers with tests that knowingly do not simulate even the real world fuel usage is acceptable? That would be like pouring lubricity and cetane improvers into the tank of a TDI before its noise or mileage testing.

 

[Daekar]

I long for the days of responsive government agencies untainted by the lunatic fringe.

Bill

Amem, brother. Amen.

 

[40X40]

My belief is that if they're going to mandate ethanol in gasoline at specific concentrations, then the tests should be conducted at those concentrations. After all, they changed the tests before, rendering before and after comparison illogical. Why should the tests not change with conditions? They exist to give consumers an idea of the mileage they'll get in the real world with real world fuel, and for no other reason. They sure as heck don't exist so some forum bean counters can compare fuel efficiency across vehicle generations - those cars have already been sold and don't concern anybody except the lawyers and service departments.

Or are you telling me that deceiving consumers with tests that knowingly do not simulate even the real world fuel usage is acceptable? That would be like pouring lubricity and cetane improvers into the tank of a TDI before its noise or mileage testing.

I'm telling you that I don't have an answer to your question. But I think that Ethanol concentrations vary from state to state and major city to rural areas.
How big of a sticker would we have to put on the car window to give all the possible results? Best to test to worse case scenario so that everyone gets a car that exceeds the MPG estimate. (that is not the case right now, AFAIK)

BTW, the rural areas often have gasoline that gives better mileage than the big city EPA SPECIAL fuel in my own experience. When traveling with a gasoline car, I fill up 30 or more miles outside the major metro areas for best fuel economy. Where I buy my Diesel fuel doesn't seem to matter enough to notice.


Bill

 

[Daekar]

I'm telling you that I don't have an answer to your question. But I think that Ethanol concentrations vary from state to state and major city to rural areas.
How big of a sticker would we have to put on the car window to give all the possible results? Best to test to worse case scenario so that everyone gets a car that exceeds the MPG estimate. (that is not the case right now, AFAIK)

BTW, the rural areas often have gasoline that gives better mileage than the big city EPA SPECIAL fuel in my own experience. When traveling with a gasoline car, I fill up 30 or more miles outside the major metro areas for best fuel economy. Where I buy my Diesel fuel doesn't seem to matter enough to notice.


Bill

I completely agree! Covering all scenarios is wasteful, expensive, and unnecessary. Worst-case testing is exactly what we should have.

I didn't realize that the formulation of gasoline changed within urban areas. I'm blessed to be a fairly good (for the East Coast) distance from anything that could be called a metropolis with a straight face, but I'll keep that in mind for travelling, thank you.

 

[40X40]

OLD GAO reports from 2005:

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-05-421

(Gov't Accounting Office) This will give you some idea... it has gotten worse since then, IMO.



Bill

 

[josh8loop]

I kind of thought it was cool that they used a TDI engine and went with up to 40% ethanol to fuel a diesel engine with no major issues from running it. That's fairly significant percentage of a co-fuel and makes me think that implementing another fuel like CNG as a co-fuel may work out fairly well even with elevated percentages. Adding an additional source of fueling would be very easy to implement on a TDI engine especially with gaseous fuels.

 

[GoFaster]

The paper indicates that the amount of ethanol that can be used in this manner (pre-mixing - similar to how propane is used as a performance adder) is limited by pre-ignition and knock (the technical terms are "peak cylinder pressure" and "rate of pressure rise"). Call me surprised ... NOT. Propane has similar limitations.

You can do that sort of pre-mix dual-fuel arrangement with natural gas (methane) without too much trouble, because methane has a sufficiently high resistance to autoignition that it can burn more or less normally in the combustion chamber once it is ignited with "pilot" diesel fuel, even at normal diesel-engine compression ratios. Almost any other fuel will either want to detonate in the chamber after ignition, or autoignite before the end of compression stroke, both of which are "very very bad" on the good-bad scale.

I have heard of ways of using ethanol in the normal diesel-engine manner, being injected as a high pressure liquid just like diesel fuel is normally used, which avoids the pre-ignition and most of the detonation issues, by blending it with something else that presumably acted as an ignition agent, but I don't recall where I've read about it.

Ethanol has a high octane rating which normally implies a poor cetane rating, i.e. it makes a good spark-ignition fuel but a poor compression-ignition fuel.

 

[Abacus]

No such animal in my neck of the woods. There is one 76 station in town that sells specialty fuels, but I think they are mainly racing fuels (Pacific Raceways is just outside my town).

You have two stations in Auburn, WA that sell non-ethanol fuel.

http://pure-gas.org/

I buy my gas at the local airport, which is mandated to be ethanol free LL100. It's expensive, but worth the price.

 

[ejg3855]

Everything has its place in the market.

There is a lot of ethanol haters in here or so it seems.

E85 is a great fuel for the forced induction gasoline crowd, you can really run a lot better tune on a car when you dont have to worry about knocking and retarding timing like crazy with 93. Sure it gets less MPG's and its not proportionally cheaper but the performance gains are great for the small market of people that care.