nicklockard
Torque Dorque
The latter + smaller nozzle holes.
I don't think several runs and logged temps on one vehicle is enough data to come to a conclussion. Other cars running different fuel may have totally different results. Lots of varibles to consider.Interesting. And great work. Sounds like temps can be ruled out as a key contributing factor to HPFP death pretty much. Kudos for running it down.
Thanks for all the testing. What I am curious about I would not want you to test.GENTS - More updates on the effects of fuel tank level on fuel temps. I ran the same test circuit. I ran the car almost out of fuel, finishing the circuit at the filling station I used. I squeezed 14.7 gallons of fuel into the tank to give an idea of how low I took things.
The numbers from this same test run were not really any different from the run I did that was posted earlier (done at ~ 3/8 tank).
I'm going to do some more loggings and probably post a summary of results in a separate thread. I saw the pretty much the same numbers as before. That was a bit of a surprise. I guess this is why VW doesn't fit a fuel cooler. I suspect it may also be why the HPFP is made of aluminum. The cars with fuel coolers probably have steel HPFP's.
My post was a lot of the same thoughts. I took forever to post so I guess I missed your post. Folks have a lot of different conditions to deal with.Meh. Depends a lot on where you live. I live in a cool climate (Rockies). Even with a quart of fuel total in the fuel system circulating between the tank and and the fuel rail, it experiences significant cooling in the fuel lines between the tank and the engine and back again.
Not such a big deal in my climate. It could be a huge deal in Phoenix or Miami.
eddif, even with only a half inch of fuel in the fuel tank the fuel sending unit bucket stays full at all times.Thanks for all the testing. What I am curious about I would not want you to test.
I wonder what is going on when driving with little fuel when:
You are on an extreme driveway slope
Playing Johnny road racer on curves
Sloshing fuel on purpose (so we would know what accidental sloshes do)
Testing on a roaring hot day
Drain the tank and put one gallon of fuel in (so you would know the amount of fuel)
Drive the car 35 miles on the one gallon doing all the tests listed above
Put one ounce of gasoline in the gallon and retest
Put three ounces of gasoline in the gallon and retest
Just a mess when all this could have been tested at the get go. Or either take the low fuel light off the cars and suggest never running the cars low on fuel. It bothers me when folks feel comfort in running cars low on fuel, especially when things can be happening in accidental extremes
The shadetree jerk from Mississippi
eddif
I agree completely. I'm hoping more folks log and report results. Comparisnos with the MY12 Passat will probably be eye opening. I believe VW redesigned the system to in part impact fuel temps. I believe over time the data will tell it's own story. For now the data I have isn't enough to cause me to change my normal fueling pattern (fill up at 1/2 tank). At least I don't have to worry as much about running down to 1/4 tank from a temperature perspective.I don't think several runs and logged temps on one vehicle is enough data to come to a conclussion. Other cars running different fuel may have totally different results. Lots of varibles to consider.
Member tdiatlast is also going to check fuel temps on both his 09 Jetta and his 2012 Passat. It will be interesting to see the results.
I would be interested in seeing what the temperature would be with a full tank. That would theoretically be the coolest the fuel temperature would ever be (since there is more fuel in the tank to disapate the heat. Just an idea for the next time you are running tests.I'm going to do some more loggings and probably post a summary of results in a separate thread. I saw the pretty much the same numbers as before. That was a bit of a surprise. I guess this is why VW doesn't fit a fuel cooler. I suspect it may also be why the HPFP is made of aluminum. The cars with fuel coolers probably have steel HPFP's.
Although theoretically, there is some friction inside the fuel pump, it is pretty much neglible as long as it is being lubricated. Most friction occurs inside the liquid fuel itself as it has viscosity and anytime a viscous fluid is forced to move, the viscosity (which is a type of friction) turns into heat. For example, the temperature of the water that flows over the Niagra falls increases by a degree to two from the churning that takes place....There are a lot of factors that influence fuel temps including:
1. Fuel tank temperature
2. Position of the pre-heating valve in inside the fuel filter.
3. Engine operating point (this would determine how heavily high pressure bleed was being used to control CR pressure. Under dynamic conditions, this is probably too highly variable to be trackable with the tools we have.
4. Outside ambient air temperature
5. Vehicle speed
6. Friction inside the HPFP
...
Like running a DSG in 'Sport' around town with RPM's at 3k all the time.Sustained high engine speeds with little load on the motor would heat up the fuel more than anything else as the fuel pump would be pumping fuel like crazy up to high pressure only to have most of it returned to the fuel tank as heated fuel.
I may be mistaken but I thought the pressure across the rail was fairly constant, regardless of engine load.I believe the Fuel Pressure Regulater is adjusted by the engine's computer. If that is so, I would also expect that the pressure of the fuel would be increased as the RPMs increased. Higher fuel pressure would allow the injectors to produce finer fuel atomization inside the cylinder and a faster burn rate. Conversely, at low rpms, the fuel pressure would be lowered to reduce the burn rate of the fuel. That is something a CR diesel can do that gasoline engines cannot do.
Being bolted to the head, isn't the HPFP temperature dependent on engine temperature? I see the fuel temp sensor is not at the HPFP. The engine cover would also keep the common rail warm.There are a lot of factors that influence fuel temps including:
1. Fuel tank temperature
2. Position of the pre-heating valve in inside the fuel filter.
3. Engine operating point (this would determine how heavily high pressure bleed was being used to control CR pressure. Under dynamic conditions, this is probably too highly variable to be trackable with the tools we have.
4. Outside ambient air temperature
5. Vehicle speed
6. Friction inside the HPFP
If you have a copy of the Bentley Service Manaul, under the section "Product Familization" (page 02-18) in my edition it states clearly that the pressure is adjusted by the engine's control module:I may be mistaken but I thought the pressure across the rail was fairly constant, regardless of engine load.
Although theoretically, there is some friction inside the fuel pump, it is pretty much neglible as long as it is being lubricated. Most friction occurs inside the liquid fuel itself as it has viscosity and anytime a viscous fluid is forced to move, the viscosity (which is a type of friction) turns into heat. For example, the temperature of the water that flows over the Niagra falls increases by a degree to two from the churning that takes place.
The fuel system has a valve (called a Fuel Pressure Regulater) that bleeds high pressure fuel not consumed by the engine back to fuel tank. This "regulater" acts like a safety valve on a steam engine. If it did not operate, the fuel lines would burst or the the fuel pump would experience something like a hydrolock and self destruct. Whenever, the fuel travels through the Fuel Pessure Regulater, the fuel would heat up as it is forced to travel extremely fast through a microscopic crack produced by the regulater from a high pressure area to a where there is no pressure at all. All the mechanical energy that the car's engine used in pumping the fuel up to high pressure has to turned into heat and this is where it would occur.
I believe the Fuel Pressure Regulater is adjusted by the engine's computer. If that is so, I would also expect that the pressure of the fuel would be increased as the RPMs increased. Higher fuel pressure would allow the injectors to produce finer fuel atomization inside the cylinder and a faster burn rate. Conversely, at low rpms, the fuel pressure would be lowered to reduce the burn rate of the fuel. That is something a CR diesel can do that gasoline engines cannot do.
At high rpm's the fuel pump pumps faster and the engine's computer increases the fuel pressure accordingly. If there is little load on the engine, most of the fuel would be bled back to the low pressure of the fuel tank heating it.
Sustained high engine speeds with little load on the motor would heat up the fuel more than anything else as the fuel pump would be pumping fuel like crazy up to high pressure only to have most of it returned to the fuel tank as heated fuel.
Like running a DSG in 'Sport' around town with RPM's at 3k all the time.
Great commentsI may be mistaken but I thought the pressure across the rail was fairly constant, regardless of engine load.
I just got my vcds. How do I log this info? I can compare the golf and jsw side by side to see if there is any real world difference.Looking at the graphs above - You can infer that SPORT mode tends to carry higher CR pressure and operates with more of an overlap between HPFP delivery and CR bleed off. I like the idea that CR pressure seems to experience smoother transitions. Obvesiously more parameter logging is needed. Perhaps others with VCDS will post up some log graphics.
You need to connect up VCDS and start the car. Then you need to log into the engine controller. Click the 01-Engine button.I just got my vcds. How do I log this info? I can compare the golf and jsw side by side to see if there is any real world difference.
2micron - Great summation of the newer Czech pump. Great pictures. Here are some obvesious questions that we are mostly going to have to wait on documentation to answer. Food for thought anyway.Hello All,
Here are some obvious differences in a Czech Made 2012 Passat Pump VS our "Regular" German 2.0 tdi Pumps:
.
1.) The Cam has a 0.058" (1.5mm) LONGER stroke.
...
6.) The FCV is a different part Number.
.
Here are the similarities:
...
3.) Same Diamond coated roller shoe and roller diameter.
4.) Same High pressure Plunger Diameter and Head with Valve.
5.) Same internal COV valve.
.
The good news:
The new Czech Pumps for our cars will most likely have the above improvements, but not the longer stroke for the Passat. (the Passat has different injectors.)
All the best,
The internal volume of the Common Rail would affect plunger stroke also, remember, it acts as a pressure dampener also. This is is reference to 2012 Passats vs earlier V1 2009 on jetta, jsw and golf CR common rails.2micron - Great summation of the newer Czech pump. Great pictures. Here are some obvesious questions that we are mostly going to have to wait on documentation to answer. Food for thought anyway.
1. Is the higher stroke of this pump is due to a difference in injector design (i.e. increased injector return line flow)? Or does it provide for better delivery control from a revised Fuel Metering Valve?
2. Were the dimensions of the pump chamber increased to partially offset the longer pump stroke? [Benefits of this type of change?]
3. Does the Passat FIE operate at higher CR pressures? Someone with VCDS might be able to answer this. After all Euro 6 emission standards are already in place (link below) for 2014 debut.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
Interesting. I had a different take on the changes than you did.They appear to be tailoring the rail to dampen line vibrations and perhaps improve delivery pressure uniformity.