biodiesel in 2009 TDIs

[40X40]

Boy this is all so confusing..Do I go for a new TDI and fear that future mandates of biodiesel will force me to use it in my car, will additives take care of that; or do I get a used TDI that can use any amount of Bio? The FAQ says that it isn't know if you can safely use B100 in a PD, is that still true?

Buy any car you like, there will be fuel available to run it. There is a whole bunch of hysteria around here.... Drive more, worry less.

Bill

 

[kcfoxie]

No thats been proven wrong for about 5 years now.

Go with the best deal, thats my suggestion.

 

[adamant628]

Thanks guys

 

[GoFaster]

What a sad commentary. Seems like VW had it right with the ALH, AUH platforms. We can run BD. Now the engineering compromise excludes the newer clean diesels from running the stuff! Seems like a step backwards.
Guess that is why I am going to try and get another ten or fifteen years out of my ALH and burn B20 doing it.

This is an overly simplistic viewpoint. The AHU and ALH engines could fortuitously run biodiesel without damage, but they were not *designed* to do so. Same with the PD's although the materials were designed to be compatible with biodiesel due to commercial sale of biodiesel in Europe at the time. For the common-rail engines, the emission standards have become so stringent that the combustion has to be very tightly controlled, and that's only possible if the fuel specifications fall within a much narrower allowable range. It's a matter of picking whether the engine could be certified on standard ULSD fuel, or on biodiesel ... and in that case, given commercial availability, the ONLY choice for VW was to certify it on standard ULSD. Could you make an engine similar to this, which meets the emission regulations on biodiesel? Probably, but it would differ in specifications and if those differing specifications mean it could not be emission-certified on standard diesel fuel, and given lack of biodiesel availability everywhere across the country, how many would they sell, and would it pay back the investment?

Also, it is generally recognized nowadays that biodiesel produced through the transesterification process has no future in the mass market - it is impossible to make enough of it. There is another process, GTL (or BTL) which can be used - but the end product of that is indistinguishable from standard diesel fuel, so again, the only practical choice given the tight emission regulations is to certify the engine on standard diesel fuel (which will also work with chemically-identical BTL fuel).

So, what would you like VW to do?

Pressure the EPA into loosening regulations so that the engines weren't so finicky about their fuel? Good luck with that!

Make a biodiesel-specific engine that can't run on standard diesel fuel? Who is going to buy that, and how many, and what would it cost per unit given the small number of potential sales?

For your own specific situation, your best choice is to stay with 2006 and prior models, that's all there is to it!

 

[kiwibru]

Simplistic it may be Brian but your perspective adds to the picture nicely.
It seems that VW has made a decision to engineer and manufacture a specific platform to address the standards. How has that affected the cars in the EU? Are they giving up the use of BD fuels until the new processes you mentioned come into the market? I guess given the situation here in the U.S. it made sense as they hit an engineering wall so to speak and could not make a "dual-fuel platform" work any longer. Many of us want to continue our use of BD throughout the transition period to newer technologies and it just seems rather odd to not keep up with the engineering to make multi-diesel fuel vehicles available in the U.S.
I will of course concede the reality they faced has probably had a stronger influence on their short-term decision making. In the long term they will hopefully return to a more diverse fueling scenario as we finish with old technology and develop new ones.

 

[atc98002]

Brian, I believe that you hit the nail on the head. It could be done with 2 different engines, but the cost to certify a BD only engine would never be recovered because sales would be low.

Making an emission control system that could recognize how much BD was in the fuel and modify its operation could probably also be done. However, my WAG at its cost thinks it would be ridiculous. Again, costs wouldn't be recovered because the selling price would be way too high.

Too bad, because I'd certainly prefer to run BD when I buy my next car (probably a Touareg).

 

[GoFaster]

It seems that VW has made a decision to engineer and manufacture a specific platform to address the standards. How has that affected the cars in the EU? Are they giving up the use of BD fuels until the new processes you mentioned come into the market?

Yes, it has affected the cars in the EU the same way. The EU cars still have the particulate trap (which is the emission control component that has trouble with biodiesel). And, in Germany, commercial sales of B100 has been discontinued, because this same situation has affected *every* automotive diesel engine manufacturer. Home-brewers who use B100 in those cars over there will screw them up the same way those who use B100 in those cars over here.

 

[Drivbiwire]

Another key difference is not all Biodiesel is the same.

The wide variation even in Soy (SME) Biodiesel makes it impossible to hit uniform specification.

Rapeseed which is the only "Biodiesel" sold in Europe has COMPLETELY different characteristics that Soy and other types produced here in the US.

The key difference with Rapeseed (RME) Biodiesel is superior oxidation stability.

Most of the proponents of Biodiesel here in the US refuse to accept the issues associated with Oxidation stability. With the newer fuel systems especially those found in the PD, fuel temperatures skyrocket.

The problems really reside inside the injectors and other components of the fuel system that are exposed to high temperatures. In older VE TDI's the problem areas are the fuel nozzles and internal ares of the injectors.

In the PD engine the problem areas are the hundreds of microscopic laser drilled holes in addition to the same nozzle issues of the VE engines.

In the Common Rail there is a 10 fold increase in issues making it nearly impossible to run (reliably) high percentages of US grade Biodiesel and even European Rapeseed Biodiesel. Just like the VE engines the nozzles and internal components of the injectors are exposed to continious heat. The fuel temperatures are in north of 150-200C in most cases. The Rail due to high pressure spike the fuel temperatures and presents the possibility of forming varnish and gum in the rail and the pressure regulating valve(s). The High pressure pump in my opinion is perhaps the only part (just like the VE) which may benefit from B100 and the increased viscosity.

In addition the post injection strategy to elevate the DPF temperatures as well as the poor combustion characteristics of the Biodiesel in the DPF leads to rapid contamination of the DPF systems, pressure sensors as well as Oxygen and NOx sensors. Even with the more robust SCR systems they too cannot tolerate anything beyond B5 reliably.

With the High pressure and Low pressure EGR, unburned fuel re-ingested is a very bad thing considering the Low Pressure EGR is injected into the turbos compressor inlet. The recirculation of unburned heavy Biodiesel residues presents a recipe for disaster since the B100 will not burn off in the DPF due to its higher flash point, leading to varnish and gum formation in the catalysts and the EGR systems.

The key will be fuels that mimick conventional Diesel fuel derived from Bio-mass.

 

[kiwibru]

Great write up Pete, thanks for that. Brian, your answer confirmed my thought that it is an issue across the pond too. Guess we have to wait for new fuel technologies to catch up and hardware to adapt once we get there.

 

[dzcad90]

With the High pressure and Low pressure EGR, unburned fuel re-ingested is a very bad thing considering the Low Pressure EGR is injected into the turbos compressor inlet. The recirculation of unburned heavy Biodiesel residues presents a recipe for disaster since the B100 will not burn off in the DPF due to its higher flash point, leading to varnish and gum formation in the catalysts and the EGR systems.

How long before real damage occurs?

I know one tank isn't going to kill the car, but what's your opinion on how long one can run Bio before they have basically killed their fuel system / DPF.

B-11 / B-20 is becoming more the rule rather than the exception here in IL. For the most part, I have been able to find Petrodiesel whenever I needed it execpt for this morning. However, after ten fillups I'd wager that I've gotten a B11+ blend due to poor practices by distributors and station owners. (i.e. mislabeling of pumps, getting the wrong fuel delivered to the pump..)

 

[GoFaster]

Unfortunately, nobody knows the answer to that.

VW allows B5 and knowing how engineering works in general, no doubt there is some margin of safety in that. How much ... is not known.

 

[BTL]

My GUESS...B11 would not be a huge issue. I agree a margin of error is probably built in....

 

[Drivbiwire]

How fast that's a no $hit "Depends" question.

Soy or Rapeseed?
B5, B10, B20 what type of fuel did you say (SME or RME)?
CRI, VE, PD(UI), IDI, what percentage and what was type again?

Does the engine have a temperature regulating system for the fuel? What is the impact on having fuel too cool in respect to dispersion and burn characteristics on the engine and emissions systems (DPF)?

The big issue I see is mostly on the Piezo injectors. Those injectors have EXTREMELY small trigger valve systems that if contaminated with varnish or gum formation could jam open and hole a piston with 26,000 psi constant pressure fuel. If the piston didn't melt it would hydro-lock and blow the block.

I'd like to think that if the Germans can make GTL work in the middle of a war that a few smart people can get to gether and make it work on a small scale using Natural gas (at first) in a garage.

Gassifier, Cobalt pebble bed...come on I see a challenge! Break it down into the individual components and I see no reason why it can't be done on a small scale. As experience grows the cost of the system and efficiency could rise. Imagine making a Bio-Mass add-on to mate to the GTL system.

 

[andreigbs]

How long before real damage occurs?

I know one tank isn't going to kill the car, but what's your opinion on how long one can run Bio before they have basically killed their fuel system / DPF.

B-11 / B-20 is becoming more the rule rather than the exception here in IL. For the most part, I have been able to find Petrodiesel whenever I needed it execpt for this morning. However, after ten fillups I'd wager that I've gotten a B11+ blend due to poor practices by distributors and station owners. (i.e. mislabeling of pumps, getting the wrong fuel delivered to the pump..)

You may want to try the truck diesel pumps instead. If the nozzle fits, just be careful with the high-flow pump .

 

[dzcad90]

You may want to try the truck diesel pumps instead. If the nozzle fits, just be careful with the high-flow pump .

What's this got to do with the topic at hand?

If anything, there's more likely to be 500PPM coming out of that nozzle than out of the autodiesel nozzle. There's a few stations in Illinois still selling 500PPM in the truck filling areas.

 

[TDIMeister]

The topic at hand (the title of this thread) is misleading and has little to do with the intended discussion of the OP (newly-developed oil additive) and what has been the course of the actual discussion.

If VWoA's stated limit of B5 sets them in a collision course with states that will mandate more than B5, that's a problem between VW and the states, not you. They cannot deny you warranty if you live in a jurisdiction where you have no choice to meet their stated fuel specification. They may elect to stop selling in those states, but I doubt that will happen. 40X40 said it well, drive more and worry less.

In Germany, EN590 pump Diesel recently went from a minimum spec of 5.75% RME Biodiesel to 7% and there are discussions to ramp that mandate up to above 10% RME in the near future and to 20% biofuel (not necessarily 1st gen RME) by 2020.

In spite of automakers whining, they have continually shown incredible resilience to find technical solutions to respond to regulation.

 

[ikendu]

In spite of automakers whining, they have continually shown incredible resilience to find technical solutions to respond to regulation.

THAT is so true. There is pretty much no connection between the profit motive (a good thing for the standard of living in a society) and what is best for society (like our health, environment and security). For example, if we want clean air, we will have to pass regulations in order for manufacturers to respond. They will never do it on their own.

 

[uncah91]

For the most part, corps CAN'T do it on their own. The consumer and the marketplace will not let them.

Take two corps, call them "Light Green" and "Really Green." Both LG and RG market themselves as Green companies, both say they are "greener" than the competition. RG is actually 50% "greener" than their comp, but their product costs 20% more.

The consumer chooses LGs products 2 to 1 over RGs.

All numbers in that example are made up, but you get the point. The only way for broad scale change is for requirements to be enacted or for someone to figure out how make green = more profitable.

 

[biodieselIam]

Save Biodiesel

The future of the biodiesel industry is severely threatened by this problem, because the pool of biodiesel-compatible vehicles will continue to shrink, rather than grow, every year that this emissions system design flaw persists.

Fortunately, there are alternative emissions system designs that would work much better. We need to petition the automotive manufacturers to make their new vehicle designs biodiesel-compatible. And we should petition the Environmental Protection Agency to require this as a part of their new vehicle emissions standards.

Please visit http://SaveBiodiesel.org to learn more about this important topic.

Then, sign our petition at
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-biodiesel
and do what you can to help spread the word.

 

[Drivbiwire]

Biodiesel (1st Generation) is as dead as the Model T...

Second generation solutions
Cellulose, the tough molecules that make up cell walls in plants, can be found in a number of forms including straw. However, to break down the cellulose tough new enzymes are needed to act as a biological catalyst and separate it from the rest of the plant to produce ethanol. Shell is working with Canadian firm Iogen and Codexis in the USA to pursue this solution.

Alternatively, gasification can use four sources such as wood chips or waste paper – heating them to a low temperature to create a charcoal-like substance, then at high temperature to produce a tar-free synthesis gas. In turn, this is then converted to a sulphur-free liquid fuel using the same process as to produce exactly the same synthetic fuel, this time BTL (biomass to liquid).

In the future, algae may also provide a sustainable source of vegetable oil for the production of biofuel for diesel engines. In 2007, Shell announced plans to build a pilot facility in Hawaii with partner HP Biopetroleum to investigate the potential. It is early days but algae holds promise because they grow rapidly, and can be cultivated in ponds of seawater, minimising the use of fertile land and fresh water.

Gas to liquids (GTL), biomass to liquids (BTL) and coal to liquids (CTL) are all part of the XTL family - created through the same 3-step process and producing identical results whatever the source material.
/**/

http://realenergy.shell.com/?page=GTLGlobalBenefits&lang=en#GTLGlobalBenefits

 

[TDIMeister]

Fortunately, there are alternative emissions system designs that would work much better.

The website seems to propose this solution as a DPF that is regenerated from fuel being injected upstream in the exhaust rather than through post-injection in the cylinder. However, it is ignorant of experience already in VWs that tried such an exhaust-stream injection approach back in 1996 for the North American-spec Passat TDI (although not to regenerate a DPF but to help activate a DOC quicker). In VW's experience, the injectors got fouled up with build-up from exhaust deposits that eventually rendered it useless. VW's solution was a recall campaign that replaced the ECU and disabled the exhaust injection.

On another point, no solution is proposed to address the inherently higher boiling curve of methyl esters that result in poorer fuel evaporation, deposits and the oil dilution phenomenon that has been already experienced in Biodiesel-fueled vehicles with extended oil change intervals, even with injection systems that pre-date any form of post-injection. Also there is concern among engine and FIE manufacturers regarding the lack of oxidation stability of FAMEs in engine operating temperatures and injection pressures.

IMO 1st Gen Biodiesel can be acceptably blended in normal diesel fuel with little or no ill-effects with modern FIE and aftertreatment in relatively small percentages. There is no such limit for older technology engines if individual owners accept certain higher risks like the potential for variable fuel quality, possibility of FIE fouling or damage, and the need for monitored oil dilution and shortened oil change intervals.

 

[Sootman]

It has been asked before but no responses where made to the question...

Where do I buy Oronite Lubricating Oil Additive? I'm running B5-10 an would love to get some of this stuff for my PD.

Anyone know where we can get it?

 

[Bio-Beetle]

Biodiesel (1st Generation) is as dead as the Model T...

Your axe must be getting very dull with all that grinding . Biodiesel ("1st Gen.") is thriving in Hawaii. And I've never seen a Model T in the state.

Shaun

 

[40X40]

It has been asked before but no responses where made to the question...
Where do I buy Oronite Lubricating Oil Additive? I'm running B5-10 an would love to get some of this stuff for my PD.
Anyone know where we can get it?

Sorry, but this is a question that I thought you had already answered for yourself.

Here is ORONITE:


http://www.chevron.com/products/oronite/about/


I don't think you can 'buy' any....

Bill

 

[Sootman]

Sorry, but this is a question that I thought you had already answered for yourself.
Here is ORONITE:
http://www.chevron.com/products/oronite/about/
I don't think you can 'buy' any....
Bill

Bill,
Thanks. I was just being hopeful. I suspect I'd have to order a couple of tankers full.

Steve

 

[ikendu]

Your axe must be getting very dull with all that grinding . Biodiesel ("1st Gen.") is thriving in Hawaii. And I've never seen a Model T in the state.

Shaun

Yea - brother! I don't see any Model T's in this area but myself and several friends are all running around happily with pre-09 TDIs and 100% biodiesel. I know that DB is all excited about the possibility of 2nd gen biodiesel. Me too! I'd love to buy some of that 2nd gen biofuel for my TDI. Until then... I guess I'll just keep on a'runnin' on that good ole 1st gen, 100% biodiesel.

 

[Moesauction!]

buy a used tdi.

My thinking is buy a used one to run wvo on, or biodiesel, i dont think the 09 ahve really proved them selves yet till i see one with 300k on it.
What is the rooms thinking on this?

 

[kiwibru]

Yup, my money and vote went with keeping the older car a few more years. Easier to "tweak" and lots of development has kept the platform (A4) much more viable IMHO.

 

[A5JETTA]

The website seems to propose this solution as a DPF that is regenerated from fuel being injected upstream in the exhaust rather than through post-injection in the cylinder. However, it is ignorant of experience already in VWs that tried such an exhaust-stream injection approach back in 1996 for the North American-spec Passat TDI (although not to regenerate a DPF but to help activate a DOC quicker). In VW's experience, the injectors got fouled up with build-up from exhaust deposits that eventually rendered it useless. VW's solution was a recall campaign that replaced the ECU and disabled the exhaust injection.

Although I'm not as technically sound as many experienced members in this thread, I did find this new link from Governmental Motors (GM) interesting, regarding their upcoming, 2010 6.0 Duramax that will replace the soon-to-be non-compliant 6.6-liter Duramax. As an excerp from the link below illustrates, GM will evidentally introduce the first on-road vehicle that will be completely B20 approved for all American drivers.

This move seems to be bucking the trend away from BD-compatible vehicles and counters what some of you are claiming for the future of biodiesel in America:

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/08/first-look-2011-duramax-diesel-v8-engine.html
The LML will be paired with an Allison six-speed transmission while the LGH will be mated to GM’s in-house 6L90 six-speed gearbox, which is also matched with the 6.0-liter V-8 gas engine.
The two biggest technical changes Arvan shared details about are the Duramax’s all-new selective catalytic reduction and its enhanced exhaust gas recirculation systems -- which are needed to scrub NOx down to no more than .2 grams per horsepower/hour -- as well as its approved use of B20 biodiesel. That’s 80 percent ultra-low-sulfur diesel and 20 percent biodiesel....

...In addition to burning cleaner, the LML/LGH Duramax can also burn greener. It’s certified to burn B20 biodiesel, up from the LMM’s B5 rating.
“We made a lot of enhancements to make sure the new Duramax is robust with biodiesel,” Arvan said. “The engine uses our latest-generation fuel filter that includes a coalescing filter to trap any water that could be present in the fuel. The downstream injector [behind the exhaust] for diesel particulate filter regeneration means we also won’t have a worry of oil dilution with B20 fuel from in-engine post injection [like is used on the LMM diesel]. There’s also additional heating to the fuel circuit so the filter won’t get plugged from old [B20] fuel gelling or waxing.”

Now although I don't fully understand all this technology and if GM has done anything to truly address some of the concerns that some of you have stated in earlier posts, it does seem that GM will introduce this new engine in late 2010, with SCR and other new designs in order to meet 2010 compliance, and at the same time, be the first automaker to introduce a diesel vehicle in America that will be B20 approved for everyone.

Is GM smart, risky, or just making their new government owners happy.

 

[TDIMeister]

IMO 1st-gen (transesterified fatty acid) Biodiesel will still stick around to some extent long after next-gen biofuels become commonplace in the global energy carrier mix.

The reason is state-of-the-art industrial transesterification is currently still the least energy-, capital- and running cost-intensive process to convert raw bio-derived oils into a form useable in energy conversion machinery like combustion engines. We are furthermore perfecting ways of using non food-competing feedstocks for transesterfication like jatropha, algae, etc.

The pump fuel of the future will likely resemble a lot like today's gasoline or kerosene in volatility, but will have increasing percentage of biofuels. These biofuels will not likely be a single uniform product but rather, like current petro-fuels, be a blend of different components from different bio-feedstocks tailored and designed to give optimum emissions and performance for engines; climatic compatibility and lowest cost to the producer.

Like it or not, FAMEs IMO will still be blended at some percentage in fuels for a long, long time...