biodiesel in 2009 TDIs

MBoni

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen
OOOhhh, now that is interesting. Good find.

If the oil dilution problem is solved via an oil additive, then the whole game just changed (for 2009+ owners, at least).
 

plexicube

New member
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Location
East Bay, CA
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
I'll be keeping a keen eye on this...

I was thinking this issue would need to be solved with some sort of hardware upgrade, so this is (potentially) great news. I wonder if B20 is the ceiling? Or if VW will address this additive in an addendum to the warrantee terms (which, unfortunately, trump any additional economic adventurousness I feel at the moment.)
 

b4black

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2004
Location
IL
TDI
1998 Jetta blue
So they take care of the acid formation and polymeriztion, but what about the drop in viscosity?
 

karlthev

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Location
Ne Pa
TDI
2009
I hope this is the "key" or a significant part of it. I'm in Pennsylvania and the Gov is pushing Bio prettty hard here. I'd use it in a flash if I knew for sure I wouldn't do any damage on my "09.

Karl
 

newmg

New member
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Location
Monson, MA
TDI
None
naturist said:
I thought this would be of interest to folks here: http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=3508

Article about a newly developed oil additive intended to deal with fuel dilution issues with newer vehicles. Might be of interest also to those of us with older vehicles but concerned about the issue.
I have a question, from what I can tell, has not been asked yet. Does using a B100 conversion kit in a 2009 TDI model help (not eliminate) the combustion of the B100 in the chambers, due to the semi-constant higher temperature of the B100 going into the combustion chamber, not allow that much B100 contaminate the crankcase (if it were thoroughly proven) based on your experiement of using B100 in the original tank and not heating the B100? I would venture to say that more of the B100 would be burned (not as much as regular diesel fuel) versus non-heated.

Also, with the regen process, again would the constant higher temperature of the B100 help (not eliminate) the regen process problem and the exhuast temperature sensor trigger issues.

I commend you on your experiement and by doing that, I am now interested in potentially purchasing a diesel using B100 but with a conversion kit due to the Northeast winters. I would love to purchase a 2010 Rabbit/Golf and I am trying to find a way to make the 2010 model run on B100 (with a conversion kit). There may be additional things that need to be done, monitored or purchased but I think it would be worth it for me.

I can't find anyone who has installed a conversion kit in a 2009 TDI; I know, it's probably too new for someone to have tried this and by all indications and recommendations, they souldn't. I would like to gather as much information to see if it may be worth it for me to attempt.
 

vwcampin

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Location
Omaha
TDI
2002 GLS TDI Auto
newmg said:
I have a question, from what I can tell, has not been asked yet. Does using a B100 conversion kit in a 2009 TDI model help (not eliminate) the combustion of the B100 in the chambers, due to the semi-constant higher temperature of the B100 going into the combustion chamber, not allow that much B100 contaminate the crankcase (if it were thoroughly proven) based on your experiement of using B100 in the original tank and not heating the B100? I would venture to say that more of the B100 would be burned (not as much as regular diesel fuel) versus non-heated.

Also, with the regen process, again would the constant higher temperature of the B100 help (not eliminate) the regen process problem and the exhuast temperature sensor trigger issues.

I commend you on your experiement and by doing that, I am now interested in potentially purchasing a diesel using B100 but with a conversion kit due to the Northeast winters. I would love to purchase a 2010 Rabbit/Golf and I am trying to find a way to make the 2010 model run on B100 (with a conversion kit). There may be additional things that need to be done, monitored or purchased but I think it would be worth it for me.

I can't find anyone who has installed a conversion kit in a 2009 TDI; I know, it's probably too new for someone to have tried this and by all indications and recommendations, they souldn't. I would like to gather as much information to see if it may be worth it for me to attempt.
What do you mean by a conversion kit? Are you talking about Waste Vegetable Oil (WVO) or biodiesel. Without a lot more research and information, no one should go near a new TDI with a WVO conversion kit. If biodiesel currently causes problems, WVO would wreak some real havoc.
 

newmg

New member
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Location
Monson, MA
TDI
None
Sorry about that, I was talking about WVO conversion kit. By the way, what would happen if I install this on a 2009/2010 TDI?

Also, in your opinion, which VW (year) would be a good candidate for WVO?
 

karlthev

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Location
Ne Pa
TDI
2009
Part of the answer?---"Without a lot more research and information, no one should go near a new TDI with a WVO conversion kit. If biodiesel currently causes problems, WVO would wreak some real havoc."



Karl
 

vwcampin

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Location
Omaha
TDI
2002 GLS TDI Auto
newmg said:
Sorry about that, I was talking about WVO conversion kit. By the way, what would happen if I install this on a 2009/2010 TDI?

Also, in your opinion, which VW (year) would be a good candidate for WVO?
Well, I certainly cannot tell you what would happen if you installed a WVO two tank kit on an '09. In a nutshell, it seems that with the regen that occurs in the exhaust of the '09's, extra fuel is injected to complete a burn off of the carbon in the exhaust trap. When running biodiesel, the biodiesel makes its way past the rings and gets into your engine oil, diluting it and leading to polymerization of the oil, raised viscosity, CEL's and who knows what type of damage. A good guess on using WVO would be large amounts of WVO getting into your engine oil, gumming up of the rings, WVO coating expensive exhaust components, CEL's, and who knows what else. While I would love to see a way to overcome this for biodiesel as well as WVO, I am certainly not smart enough nor my wallet fat enough to do the required testing to figure it out:D

As to choosing a VW for a WVO candidate, I would first ask what level of WVO knowledge you have? There are many people on this forum and others who have been successful with WVO on early Rabbit/Jetta IDI diesels up through 2006 PD TDI engines. There are also a lot who have failed miserably. An early IDI VW is going to be a cheaper initial investment, more tolerant of WVO and simpler to operate. It's also an old car and can turn out to be expensive to bring all the maintenance up to snuff. An ALH and PD TDI will obviously be much newer and more "refined" but is definitely not as forgiving when it comes to WVO.

Either one though will require you to invest a lot of time intially to research how to properly filter and dewater your WVO (you already have a WVO source lined up, right?;) ) as well as the type of kit you want to install. You will want to properly dewater your WVO and filter it to 1 micron. If you are looking at a single tank kit, Elsbett should be the only one on your list. A proper two tank kit, will have at least two, 3 port valves, a heated filter, heated tank, heated fuel lines, a heat exchanger (like a flat plate heat exchanger, FPHE), and a temp gauge at minimum. Frybrid and Greasecar are good starting points. I recommend installing it yourself so you know your system and how it operates. Also make sure your engine is in 100% mechanical shape before starting to run WVO. Oil change intervals will also need to be cut in half.

Personally I read everything I could and spoke with people actually running WVO for over a year before I decided to jump in. I started with a cheap, 81 Rabbit as a test mule to prove to myself it worked. Once I was confident that I could do it, I moved up to my 02 Jetta. It is definitely not for everyone. If you want to do it to save money because you are cheap, it's not a good idea. You have to be willing to make it your hobby and dedicate the time it takes to be successful. No cutting corners or you will fail.

If you are still enthusiastic about WVO after reading this, then it may be for you. There is a thread in here titled something close to "Should you burn WVO" that you should read as well. Good luck and welcome to TDIClub.

Edit: found it. Created by Philngrayce: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=215038
 
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MBoni

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Location
Atlanta, GA
TDI
2009 Jetta Sportwagen
newmg said:
Also, in your opinion, which VW (year) would be a good candidate for WVO?
Short answer: any year except 2009+. The whole biodiesel game changed with the 2009 models, because of the new DPF exhaust system. For older models, people have generally figured out the problems and solved them, but we aren't there yet for the 2009 engines.
 

Naimanator

Veteran Member
Joined
May 14, 2007
Location
Davis, CA
TDI
Silver 2002 Golf GLS TDI
MBoni said:
Short answer: any year except 2009+. The whole biodiesel game changed with the 2009 models, because of the new DPF exhaust system. For older models, people have generally figured out the problems and solved them, but we aren't there yet for the 2009 engines.
Short answer: There is no short answer.

Please take this answer with a grain of salt and do your own research and fully understand what you are getting yourself into by going the WVO route. There are some who would argue that WVO in any TDI is risky business if not done correctly. As far as I've ever seen, the best vehicles for WVO conversions are older IDI diesels.
 

Jetta09Chicago

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Location
Chicago, IL (NW Suburbs)
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI
VWoA Response RE Oronite Lubricating Oil Additive

I contacted Volkswagen of America regarding the new Oronite Lubricating Oil Additive (OLOA). For what it's worth, here is their response, which I received on June 12:

"Thank you for your e-mail regarding your interest our 2009 Jetta TDI and the current diesel options available on the market. I understand you are seeking to know if Volkswagen has researched the use of a lubricating oil additive in our cars. Our TDI technology has generated a lot of interest in diesel energy, and I am happy to respond to your question.

"Please know Volkswagen is always looking for ways to improve upon our already efficient, reliable, and enjoyable vehicles. With this in mind, I regret I do not have details on the specifics of the research that is being conducted by our engineers. Please know, however, at this time, we do not recommend the use of additives in the fuels or oils that go into our cars. I hope this information is helpful, and again, I am thankful you took the time to contact us.

"As a member of the Volkswagen family, your questions are important to us. Again, thank you for your e-mail. If I may be of future assistance regarding this, or any other matter, please don’t hesitate to contact me again by e-mail at www.vw.com, or through our Customer CARE Center at (800) 822-8987. If I am not available one of my colleagues will be able to assist you."

Sincerely,

Daniel Rogers
Ext. 43372
Customer CARE Advocate
 

velociT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 10, 2006
Location
Not Austin, TX
TDI
06 Jetta TDI *sold*
typical canned response.

If it's like GM, the customer care people have no way to even contact the engineers, it's no surprise.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
It may be a canned response, but it is the correct one and it is the only response possible.

The extremely stringent emission requirements are validated using fuel that meets very specific standards. Deviating from those standards could (and probably will) cause the vehicle to be out of compliance with emission standards. For a large corporation, giving someone information that could cause a violation of emission laws is not going to happen.
 

alnmike

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Location
Alaska
TDI
09
The only standard that BioD doesnt meet is the BioD concentration standard which is what the email was about.
Also, dealers and even VW reccomends fuel additives, yet they dont reccomend additives.....
 

coreycanfield

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI 2.0L
messed up

This situation is so messed up. As a new owner of a 2009 Jetta TDI, I don't know what to believe. What can we use, what can't we use, and why isn't it frigging transparent so any human being can figure it out? Frankly, I am coming to a conclusion that VW can't hold up their side of the B5 mandate because it isn't properly regulated in local/state/federal channels of fuel distribution to the general public.

Additive or not, these jack-holes better figure it out.

C-
 

coreycanfield

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Location
Milwaukee, WI
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI 2.0L
Pool our resources to VWoA

Who is interested in pooling our resources to get some answers from VWoA on this issue? Any ideas on how to get started? I am happy to start with local/city/state legislation here in WI as well as VWoA. I was just thinking if we get a game-plan, then we can act as a group... also, it would be nice to scour the net looking for other people in our situation to get them on board too. I have some knowledge of Twitter & Facebook that may help here, or if someone is an expert in that area, how do we get it moving?

We can get the answers we seek through collaboration and commitment.

C-
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
coreycanfield said:
This situation is so messed up. As a new owner of a 2009 Jetta TDI, I don't know what to believe. What can we use, what can't we use, and why isn't it frigging transparent so any human being can figure it out? Frankly, I am coming to a conclusion that VW can't hold up their side of the B5 mandate because it isn't properly regulated in local/state/federal channels of fuel distribution to the general public.
Additive or not, these jack-holes better figure it out.
C-


coreycanfield said:
Who is interested in pooling our resources to get some answers from VWoA on this issue? Any ideas on how to get started? I am happy to start with local/city/state legislation here in WI as well as VWoA. I was just thinking if we get a game-plan, then we can act as a group... also, it would be nice to scour the net looking for other people in our situation to get them on board too. I have some knowledge of Twitter & Facebook that may help here, or if someone is an expert in that area, how do we get it moving?

We can get the answers we seek through collaboration and commitment.

C-

Cory,

I notice that you only have 5 posts in your history and they were all posted today. (one cross-post included)

Do you have a question or is there anyway we can help? It seems you are quite interested in organizing some sort of group to harass VW or get some answers or something?

What do you want to know? We have 65,000 members or so... ASK.

Bill
 

CornfieldCraig

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Location
Sugar Grove IL
TDI
09 Jetta 6-spd manual
Has anyone found a source for this additive from Chevron Oronite? I can't even seem to find it clearly identified on their website. I posted a question to them on their website when this thread was started and haven't heard anything from Chevron.
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
newmg said:
Sorry about that, I was talking about WVO conversion kit. By the way, what would happen if I install this on a 2009/2010 TDI?

Also, in your opinion, which VW (year) would be a good candidate for WVO?
Any VW diesel made before 1997. IE, no TDI is really suitable for WVO. People have made it work in AHU and ALH's, and only about 10 successful PD (BEW, BRM). Honestly you want low bar injection, ie pre-1995 model vehicles.

Sorry that's just the raw truth. Unless your willing to devote an enormous amount of time and money into it.

There is no such thing as a "free ride."
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
kcfoxie said:
Any VW diesel made before 1997. IE, no TDI is really suitable for WVO. People have made it work in AHU and ALH's, and only about 10 successful PD (BEW, BRM). Honestly you want low bar injection, ie pre-1995 model vehicles.
Sorry that's just the raw truth. Unless your willing to devote an enormous amount of time and money into it.
There is no such thing as a "free ride."
Yes, and only a handful of those who've attempted it. They are very much the exception and not the norm. If I could count up all the eager beavers who posted "rah rah" posts on WVO only to slink away and get paid $1 for each of them, I'd be a rich man. We have about a dozen WVO users here on the AHU/ALH platform that claim long term success. For those serious about doing this, they'd be the resources to start with, IMO. I agree with kcfoxie's input 100%
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
The sad reality is that the TDI was the end to WVO as a fuel, much like the Clean Diesels are the end to Biodiesel in high concentrations (for now).

Oddly the answer for WVO in a TDI is make Biodiesel. The answer for Biodiesel in a Clean Diesel is reprogramming the computer to accept it, I have little doubts that the 09s aren't smart enough to figure out which kind of fuel is being injected and adjust the exhaust treatment accordingly.

Time will tell all.
 

kiwibru

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 21, 1999
Location
Distant island in WA. state
TDI
Golf 2-door, 2k Silver. Red RTDI now gone but not forgotten!
What a sad commentary. Seems like VW had it right with the ALH, AUH platforms. We can run BD. Now the engineering compromise excludes the newer clean diesels from running the stuff! Seems like a step backwards.
Guess that is why I am going to try and get another ten or fifteen years out of my ALH and burn B20 doing it.
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
I truly believe that B20 will be a non-issue, a change of oil and a tweak to the system at the most. I think the clean exhaust can handle 20% ok, it seems the oil dilution was the scape goat to stay at 5%.

What I want is a 30-50% guarantee, at that point you start making an impact.
 

fase2000TDI

Vendor
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Location
Chesapeake, VA, USA 401-919-0466
TDI
2003 Jettawagon TDI; 2015 GSW 6MT
I noticed a post about it not being "mandated" at the local/state/federal level as towards the fuel quality.

The issue with your TDI not being able to run biodiesel, as with newer trucks, is federal mandates on your vehicle. Ask the government to solve a problem it created. They always make things better.
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
We are headed to that pickle already. B20 is slated for MN as the standard fuel distributed in the coming years, I want to say a 10% Bio blend is required of all fuels from a fed standpoint within the next 5. So, something is going to give somewhere.
 

kcfoxie

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
'12 6-spd JSW
Pre-2009 TDIs can use any percentage of biodiesel they want. I personally have over 60,000 on a new BRM engine with B100.
 

adamant628

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Location
Columbus, OH
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon GLS
Boy this is all so confusing..Do I go for a new TDI and fear that future mandates of biodiesel will force me to use it in my car, will additives take care of that; or do I get a used TDI that can use any amount of Bio? The FAQ says that it isn't known if you can safely use B100 in a PD, is that still true?
 
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