23N5 software update thread to address turbo failures

[sierra3]

Just checked back in to the forums after being away for a couple of weeks. 2012 Passat TDI with 63,000 miles. Time to do the 60K service, and have a couple of recalls taken care of. Hating it, but had to go to the dealer.
One recall was for low beam headlights. The other the ECM update to address turbo failures. Leave the car for a day (Thursday), pick it up Thursday night.
60K service and check passes flawlessly. Battery in perfect working order.
Friday, normal day, nothing unusual. Saturday about 2pm, we go out to start the car. Dead battery.
Charge the battery overnight, Sunday, the car starts. Make appointment to have it back at the dealer Monday morning.
Monday morning, wife goes to start the car to take to dealer. Dead battery. Charge it up again for another attempt Tuesday morning. Tuesday, take the car in, explain the problem, make note that they did some electrical work, and point out that on Thursday the battery was perfectly fine.
They call, say the battery is bad and needs replacing. Will hold the car overnight to make sure it holds charge overnight. Wednesday, they call me and say everything is OK. I say, I will wait until Thursday to pick it up to give it one more night.
Thursday I pick up the car, and it has been fine for about 10 days.

Did they short something out originally, fix it, then charge me $220.00 for a new battery? Or was it the battery all along.....and if so, why didn't it fail when they tested it the day they did the work?

With the news of the new 2015 23N7 ECM update regarding the CAN bus not sleeping, I am wondering if the 23N5 (turbo) update has this bug, and the car is now draining the battery.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Well, considering that the turbo update is for 2012 - 2014 cars and the CANBUS update is for the 2015 cars, I don't think the two are related.

 

[sierra3]

Yeah, thanks. Wouldn't it be possible that the CANBUS bug is also in the newer software, but they just haven't found that yet, because there is not enough of the 12-14 units running the new software? Wouldn't it seem likely that they keep a 'mainline' of code, and the '15 already has the turbo adjustments in it?

 

[tdiatlast]

My thoughts: Dealer tells you the first time "battery in perfect working order" which means, "we started your car, battery worked fine". There was no reason for them to load test your battery, unless you specifically requested it.

You take the car home. Works fine for 36 hours.

Then the battery fails. Why? Because it has 60k miles on it, and the time/mileage for it to fail is about average on the NMS Passat.

Where the dealer failed is charging you $220. IIRC, that's about $70 more than what others have paid for an OEM battery.

Avoid the theory that it has anything to do with the 23N5 update. Red herring.

 

[LokiWolf]

I guess the suffix only counts so high before they change the third letter/digit to its successor? I know you understood where I was going with my explanation.

Exactly...

 

[LokiWolf]

Yeah, thanks. Wouldn't it be possible that the CANBUS bug is also in the newer software, but they just haven't found that yet, because there is not enough of the 12-14 units running the new software? Wouldn't it seem likely that they keep a 'mainline' of code, and the '15 already has the turbo adjustments in it?

Nope, like was explained above, these update codes are like OS patches. Some have pieces of the operating system or features others don't have, hence the patch for one part or the other. The Modules are slightly different on the 2015's and have different code. All the patches are recorded in the system sequentially but in most cases are not cumulative.

 

[Xpdite]

23N5 Update

Well, I will start of by saying that this is my first VW and my first diesel in 30 years. I have only had my 2013 Passat now for a couple of months. I loved it up till the update was applied 2 weeks ago. (ok, I still love it just very annoyed with the new fuel economy and the shifting)

The average temp here in Ontario for the last little while has been approximately -12 C. Doing my typical drive to and from work I was averaging 6.1L/100km. Since the update I am now averaging 7.0L/100km. My round trip is approximately 90 km a day. I make sure not to idle the car to much and only let it warm up for a minute or two max. I definitely baby this car.

Also since the update the car shifts much higher until it has been driven for a few minutes. Scares me when it won't shift out of 3rd till 3000 rmp. Also take noticeably longer for the dash temp gauge to get up to typical operating temp. Noticed it will get to operation temp and then drops all of a sudden. Does this a few times before it settles out.

Just my seat of the pants review so far.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

When did you have the update done? Did it happen to coincide with the ridiculous cold weather that has been paying everyone a visit?

 

[Xpdite]

there was the one day that was stupid cold -24 C or something like that. After 30 minutes of driving the car finally hit operation temp

 

[tdiatlast]

...The average temp here in Ontario for the last little while has been approximately -12 C. Doing my typical drive to and from work I was averaging 6.1L/100km. Since the update I am now averaging 7.0L/100km. My round trip is approximately 90 km a day. I make sure not to idle the car to much and only let it warm up for a minute or two max. I definitely baby this car...

I'm wondering if we all haven't been spoiled by the ridiculously FAST warm-up of the original ECU tuning? I know I was shocked by how quickly my 2012 warmed up, compared to my 2009 CR TDI. Faster warmup time = better MPG.
Now, after the 23N5 update, my 2014 still warms up faster than my 2009, but not by much. And yes, city MPG has dropped, during short trips. Highway cruising, fully warm, in 45f ambient, hasn't dropped.

 

[Rico567]

I have noticed no difference in our car's warmup time since we got the 23N5 update a few weeks ago. This past Monday, we hit an overnight low of -15F, and the needle pretty much tracked up to the 12 o'clock position as fast as it always does.*

*In the interest of full disclosure, car doesn't have an auxiliary heater, but it's running the idparts winter fronts (installed since November), which I think make a difference.

 

[Busydiver]

the update does not effectively change the warmup on the coolant as you stated. The change affects the warmup of the emission system and the high heat generated briefly in the system to make that happen. This high heat or blow torch effect used to start and ramp very quickly with temp hitting 1200 degrees on the exhaust into the turbo. Suspicions are these very high temps hitting the turbo right after startup was leading to the failure of the turbo bearings (oil a bit like molasses). I did not have the means to know this before but with the gauge I have today the rampup temps into the turbo do not start until you are above 90 - 100 degrees F on your coolant(no change in your dash needle at this temp) and the temp ramp is a bit slower rampup.

I am not an expert but giving your my observations and input from what I have read in this and other threads.

I have noticed no difference in our car's warmup time since we got the 23N5 update a few weeks ago. This past Monday, we hit an overnight low of -15F, and the needle pretty much tracked up to the 12 o'clock position as fast as it always does.*

*In the interest of full disclosure, car doesn't have an auxiliary heater, but it's running the idparts winter fronts (installed since November), which I think make a difference.

 

[Xpdite]

23n5

Not sure if this is related to the update or not and I will state right here... I am not very mechanical.

I bought my 2013 Passat TDI with 42000 km on it. Dealer said the oil was changed at 37000km so it would be good till the 45k maintenance. The oil was very black and it was bothering me so at 43000 km I had it changed. Oil went back again almost immediately.

I took the car in for the 45000 km service about 6-7 weeks later. This included an oil change as well as they applied the 23N5 update. That was 3 weeks ago and 1500 km and the oil is still almost pristine. I have a habit of checking my oil every Monday and I have had a hard time seeing it on the dipstick.

 

[Rico567]

Not sure if this is related to the update or not and I will state right here... I am not very mechanical.

I bought my 2013 Passat TDI with 42000 km on it. Dealer said the oil was changed at 37000km so it would be good till the 45k maintenance. The oil was very black and it was bothering me so at 43000 km I had it changed. Oil went back again almost immediately.
<snip>

This is quite normal for a diesel. If your new oil doesn't turn black in a hundred miles, then it's time to worry. Soot (the black stuff) is a normal byproduct of diesel combustion. The oil is doing its job by keeping it in suspension where it belongs, and not depositing it somewhere and causing a problem.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Two changes back-to-back flushed all of the old stuff out of the system, which is why it hasn't turned black yet. Normally, there is a little oil remaining in parts of the engine which mixes with the new oil and darkens it. Nothing to worry about.

 

[pedorro]

More frequent regens...?

I've been logging my regen intervals since installing an FIS+ in July.

• 13 events pre-23N5 update: avg of 372 miles @ 17.8g soot load (range of 16.4-18.6g).
• 3 events post-23N5 update: avg of 287 miles @ 17.8g soot load (all at 17.8g exactly).

 

[Busydiver]

Load readout

Pedorro, where are you seeing the soot load? Do you have a Polar unit? And if so what parameter are you using from the Polar list? If not are you using s scan guage? I have a polar unit and i am using soot load gr parameter and the number never gets beyond 5 gr or so.

I've been logging my regen intervals since installing an FIS+ in July.

• 13 events pre-23N5 update: avg of 372 miles @ 17.8g soot load (range of 16.4-18.6g).
• 3 events post-23N5 update: avg of 287 miles @ 17.8g soot load (all at 17.8g exactly).

 

[JdC Machine]

He's probably using VCDS.

 

[pedorro]

Pedorro, where are you seeing the soot load? Do you have a Polar unit? And if so what parameter are you using from the Polar list? If not are you using s scan guage? I have a polar unit and i am using soot load gr parameter and the number never gets beyond 5 gr or so.

Yes, I'm using an Auto-Polar FIS+ unit running firmware version 4.4. The parameter is !Soot m gr. Regens normally start around 18g and stop when the reading drops below 6g.

The current firmware version (4.6?) has a DPF regen status parameter that (I believe) ranges from 1 to 5. I'm reluctant to upgrade the firmware as I'm happy with the current functionality and am not yet convinced the update process is entirely stable.

I do love the FIS+ and sold my SG-II.

-Lee

 

[psd1]

I've been logging my regen intervals since installing an FIS+ in July.

• 13 events pre-23N5 update: avg of 372 miles @ 17.8g soot load (range of 16.4-18.6g).
• 3 events post-23N5 update: avg of 287 miles @ 17.8g soot load (all at 17.8g exactly).

Great stats, I'll be interested in your detailed MPG synopsis.

 

[pedorro]

Great stats, I'll be interested in your detailed MPG synopsis.

Will be curious to see also, though I'm still only on my second tank post-update.

Your last tank was very impressive...you're not going to let me to catch you if you keep pulling numbers like that!

 

[rustycat]

Yes, I'm using an Auto-Polar FIS+ unit running firmware version 4.4. The parameter is !Soot m gr. Regens normally start around 18g and stop when the reading drops below 6g.

The current firmware version (4.6?) has a DPF regen status parameter that (I believe) ranges from 1 to 5. I'm reluctant to upgrade the firmware as I'm happy with the current functionality and am not yet convinced the update process is entirely stable.

I do love the FIS+ and sold my SG-II.

-Lee

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of Auto-Polar, went to their web site then to youtube.
Here's a youtube video with the nms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6_M2JkJw-4

 

[psd1]

Will be curious to see also, though I'm still only on my second tank post-update.
Your last tank was very impressive...you're not going to let me to catch you if you keep pulling numbers like that!

Oh, competition…fun. When the weather warms up you should work on your 900 mile tank, and then your 1K.

I'm not sure if it's the weather, the cold fronts, worn out tires or the engine breaking in that is helping so much. I suppose a combo of all of it.

 

[MarkAardvark]

I'd stated earlier that regens had happened more frequently. At this point they are more or less back to normal.

Before 23N5: 200 miles between regens.
First two reqens after 23N5: 100 miles apart.
Most Recent: 200 miles and 175 miles.

No changes in fuel consumption in sunny northern california.

*Your results may vary*

 

[paulpas]

I got mine updated 2 months ago in WI during the -15 morning temperatures. I didn't notice any changes. I drive mine like I did my old Audi with a 2.7T, under 2k RPM until it warms up, so I might not be noticing anything due my driving style. I got a Malone tune 3 days later and I saw no differences on cold start/running issues. My 40-65F cold-start acceleration hesitation still occurs. I have a 6MT.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I've noticed that the 23N5 update makes it do an emissions warm-up every time the engine is started, even after a 5 minute rest stop on the highway. It did not do this prior to the update.

In this particular example of the highway rest stop, the turbo now gets blow-torched every time you merge onto the highway from a rest stop where the engine was shut off, even if that acceleration is gradual. Since everything is already warm, it might not cause any long term stress/fatigue, but I still don't like it.

 

[14tdipassat]

I've noticed that the 23N5 update makes it do an emissions warm-up every time the engine is started, even after a 5 minute rest stop on the highway. It did not do this prior to the update.

In this particular example of the highway rest stop, the turbo now gets blow-torched every time you merge onto the highway from a rest stop where the engine was shut off, even if that acceleration is gradual. Since everything is already warm, it might not cause any long term stress/fatigue, but I still don't like it.

I have not noticed that. Any time I start engine with coolant temp at 145+ (per SGII/Polar), no blowtorch...

 

[jrm]

I noticed mine would blowtorch every time it was started even warm if the outdoor temp was sub 50F both pre and post update. Plus I swear this car adds in a hidden post injection during cold outdoor temps as my EGT's will run 900's on flat ground if its really cold out- I have 500 Gallons of summer blend and the NMS will still drop into the low 30 MPG when its cold while my mechanical injected diesels retain summertime MPG. It seems the ECM will keep the DPF hot at all cost

 

[tdiatlast]

I noticed mine would blowtorch every time it was started even warm if the outdoor temp was sub 50F both pre and post update. Plus I swear this car adds in a hidden post injection during cold outdoor temps as my EGT's will run 900's on flat ground if its really cold out- I have 500 Gallons of summer blend and the NMS will still drop into the low 30 MPG when its cold while my mechanical injected diesels retain summertime MPG. It seems the ECM will keep the DPF hot at all cost

Hmmm. I wonder if keeping the DPF at a constant temp will lower the risk of a cracked DPF? I would imagine there would be a small (small) MPG loss, but ultimately a cleaner, happier DPF??? Pure speculation on my part

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I think the opposite - the rapid temperature increase could introduce more fatigue compared to a more gradual increase.