Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[VeeDubTDI]

I stand corrected -- the window sticker does show a HP and torque rating.

Maybe be a little more careful throwing around 99% confidence ratings in the future.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Capitol hill:

Representative:Why do your cars go bumpity bumpity, Mr Horn ?
Horn: Pardon me ?
Representative: Black on white, says so right here: Too much knocks!
Horn: Ah, I understand. Not 'knocks,' Mr. Representative, "NOx."
Representative: What the ? Is that even a word ?
Horn: No, Mr. Representative.
Representative: Then answer the dang question! Does your cars go bumpity bump or not ?
Horn: No, Mr. Representative
Representative: No more questions

Thank you! That made me laugh out loud.

 

[meerschm]

so base on this, should I do my timing belt on my 09 or wait and see if they cover the tb? I'm at 110k miles. We are deciding what to do with our 2013 jsw.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would the timing belt be involved at all?

as a follow up,

VW does not include a new filter to go with the fluid change needed for a DSG recall.

if they changed a HPFP for failure at 115,000 miles, they would not include a timing belt, water pump, or other parts.

(a nice dealer might cut you some slack on a reduced price for those additional services.)

 

[hybridkiller]

I hope no one bought their TDI for its top speed.

Top speed is another (in this case less worrisome) way of relating power, HP, and by mathematical extension, torque. As I posted earlier:

Don't forget that aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the velocity - for example, a car with a top speed of 100 mph may need as much as 20% more HP to reach 110 mph.

There's a reason why Horn was told to answer this question in terms of top speed rather than HP - the VW damage control people have done their homework on this, and got the reaction from you that they were hoping for ("oh, that's not so bad").

I'm pretty sure a 1-2 mph reduction in top speed equates to more than a couple of HP.

 

[redpill]

Maybe be a little more careful throwing around 99% confidence ratings in the future.

Don't be too harsh on him, it must have been the 1%

 

[panda]

Several times Herr Horn has stated VW will compensate with money customers of effected cars.

I'd rather have an unlimited mileage emission and power train warranty.

 

[kobrian85]

An SCR retrofit for the LNT cars will have to be an engineered bolt-in solution. That it will be more than a year before these cars are retrofitted ... is completely unsurprising given that the relevant parts will have to be designed, vehicle systems rewired and reprogrammed to accommodate, then the solution extensively function-tested (to demonstrate to the EPA's satisfaction that it works) likely simultaneous with constructing the production tooling to make those parts, and only then put into production.

This will cost a couple thousand bucks per vehicle ...

I saw this today:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-might-cost-fix-vw-car/

• Cooler ($361)
• Aftertreatment Fuel Tank ($534)
• Dosing Valve ($240)
• DPFE ($105)
• Temperature Sensor ($171)
• EGR ($401)
• Catalyst ($688)
Total = $2,500

That doesn't include replacement of the gas tank if needed to retrofit the AdBlue tank, and obviously does not include labor figures.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I saw this today:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-might-cost-fix-vw-car/
That doesn't include replacement of the gas tank if needed to retrofit the AdBlue tank, and obviously does not include labor figures.

Why are we quoting retail prices? Volkswagen doesn't pay their own retail prices. They also don't pay retail labor rates.

 

[MrSprdSheet]

Not really partisan looking, on capital hill this morning. Joe Barton was there. No apologies. Then, there was R-NY Rep. Collins, believing more knew, and that they should conduct a Gen 1 buyback:
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4554474/collins-engineer-grills-vw-horn

With Horn stipulating each a cat and SCR will be needed, it sounds like Gen 1 costs could get closer to $2k each. One report said Horn said VW would not be buying any cars back, but I didn't catch a video segment of him saying that.

 

[kobrian85]

Why are we quoting retail prices? Volkswagen doesn't pay their own retail prices. They also don't pay retail labor rates.

Very fair point.

 

[hybridkiller]

One report said Horn said VW would not be buying any cars back, but I didn't catch a video segment of him saying that.

I watched most of the hearing - he was asked if VW was considering buybacks, compensation, etc. - he answered yes to all. I didn't hear him rule out anything (as expected this early in the game).

 

[Rudyjo]

Your kids will end up far better drivers, if they learn in a manual car.

If I remember correctly, the driving test for new drivers in Germany must be taken in a manual transmission car.

 

[Willem_Dafoe]

Were you able to find a dealer to take a trade or are you just saying that is what you want?

I did indeed find a dealer willing to make a trade, and a representative from head office is assisting me with making sure that it is a fair swap. The dealer I am trading with is located in Oakville Ontario

 

[redpill]

With Horn stipulating each a cat and SCR will be needed, it sounds like Gen 1 costs could get closer to $2k each. One report said Horn said VW would not be buying any cars back, but I didn't catch a video segment of him saying that.

I thought I heard him say they were considering buybacks as an option.

The only thing I heard him rule out is that they wouldn't be willing to provide people loaner/rental vehicles today, as the EPA says the cars are safe and legal to drive as-is thus there is no reason to do that. That doesn't really address customer concern about being a source of NOx emissions, of course, but it is what it is. Obviously in the full scope of NOx emission nationwide, we're talking about a tiny sliver (not that it excuses it), I think most folks will be able to get over the fact that they are being slightly dirtier than they'd like for a year. Bigger concern is what does post-fix ownership look like on a Gen I.

 

[hybridkiller]

I think most folks will be able to get over the fact that they are being slightly dirtier than they'd like for a year. Bigger concern is what does post-fix ownership look like on a Gen I.

Bingo.

 

[kjclow]

The other shoe drops:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-new-questions-arise-on-u-s-injury-reporting

Not emissions related but it seems VW may have been lying to the authorities about other things as well. Maybe now we'll find out the real number of HPFP failures.

I'm not arguing the validity of the story, but shouldn't this already be covered in reports to the NHTSA from the insurance companies? Seems strange that the manufacturer would be accountable for reporting injuries and deaths in their vehicles.

 

[bhtooefr]

Top speed is another (in this case less worrisome) way of relating power, HP, and by mathematical extension, torque. As I posted earlier:

Don't forget that aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the velocity - for example, a car with a top speed of 100 mph may need as much as 20% more HP to reach 110 mph.

There's a reason why Horn was told to answer this question in terms of top speed rather than HP - the VW damage control people have done their homework on this, and got the reaction from you that they were hoping for ("oh, that's not so bad").

I'm pretty sure a 1-2 mph reduction in top speed equates to more than a couple of HP.

So, I'm going to preface this by saying that this is all really back-of-the-napkin and imprecise for exact numbers, as I'm using a top speed/aero drag calculator off the interwebs: https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/aerohpcalc.html

At 0.32 Cd, 21 square feet frontal area (what a Mk5/6 Golf is at, from memory), and 2952 pounds (what a 110 hp Mk6 Golf 2.0 TDI is at in Europe, which includes 90% fuel and a 75 kg driver), it takes about 117.6 hp to go 125 mph, the limited top speed of a US-spec Mk6 Golf TDI.

An actual 110 hp car of that type has a top speed of 194 km/h, or 120.5 mph: http://www.auto-data.net/en/?f=showCar&car_id=8609 The calculator claims that it takes 106.1 hp to do this, meaning there's about a 3.68% error. (This also means that the actual power required is 121.9 hp.)

Going from that error, our target power on that calculator is 135 hp. At about 131.2 mph, a delimited but otherwise stock Mk6 Golf TDI in the US should be topped out.

Another way to look at this is to drop the top speed by 1 and by 2 mph - to 124 and 123 mph - and then apply the error to the horsepower that this calculator returns.

At 124 mph, the calculator gives 115.1 hp required, or with the error, 119.3 hp.

At 123 mph, the calculator gives 112.5 hp required, or with the error, 116.6 hp.

I would not be surprised if, post-repairs, these cars have 115-120 hp. However, this is back-of-the-napkin calculations, that may not be properly accounting for some things, and an error in my calculations or in that calculator's assumptions could easily account for 5-10 hp, I'd say.

 

[croppz]

Now if only they could address the DPF and HPFP bull

 

[Shife]

In general no, but they usually have enough sense to not play stupid in testimony to congress. Admittedly he is acting in front of a sympathetic audience but the crowd gets ornery when they are the butt of the joke.

Oh please. Have you ever followed any of these Congressional circus events? Ford, Toyota, GM, Hyundai, BP, Petreaous, the HHS Director, Benghazi!, etc..??

 

[Victor-Whiskey]

~480,000 cars
6-8 hours per repair, per car (Horn's testimony) = ~3,840,000 work hours

~600 US VW dealerships (wiki) = 6400 hrs per dealership = @40 hrs/wk = ~3 yrs of labor

They'll have to put several techs at each dealer full time to get this done in a year. This is going to be a big clusterfook.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

~480,000 cars
6-8 hours per repair, per car (Horn's testimony) = ~3,840,000 work hours

~600 US VW dealerships (wiki) = 6400 hrs per dealership = @40 hrs/wk = ~3 yrs of labor

They'll have to put several techs at each dealer full time to get this done in a year. This is going to be a big clusterfook.

Divide by three technicians and you get 1 year. Divide by 6 technicians and you get 0.5 years. Our local dealership has nearly two dozen service bays. I expect the recall to happen in a time-efficient manner.

 

[hybridkiller]

I would not be surprised if, post-repairs, these cars have 115-120 hp. However, this is back-of-the-napkin calculations, that may not be properly accounting for some things, and an error in my calculations or in that calculator's assumptions could easily account for 5-10 hp, I'd say.

The reason for the theoretical discrepancies is that the calculators don't factor in the power curve of the particular engine, drivetrain gearing, type of tires the car is wearing, etc.

If VW wasn't expecting at least a solid 10 HP loss I don't think they would acknowledge it at all, especially not this early in terms of developing and testing the fix.

 

[TornadoTDI2010]

I watched most of the hearing - he was asked if VW was considering buybacks, compensation, etc. - he answered yes to all. I didn't hear him rule out anything (as expected this early in the game).

I posted in another thread about buybacks before I found this helpful link:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?328599-1/hearing-volkswagen-emissions-violations&live

You can search the video by keyword.

At one point, Horn said they don't plan to buyback the inventory, they plan to fix the cars. In context, it sounded like he was referring only to DEALER inventory.
At any rate, the link above is helpful if anyone wants to skip to certain parts of the testimony.

 

[SageBrush]

The torque curve will be interesting.

 

[redpill]

I expect the recall to happen in a time-efficient manner.

Keep in mind a lot of folks aren't going to be in any particular rush to get it done, so it will probably linger for some time until local emissions requirements (if they exist) force their hand.

It'll certainly happen faster in CA and other states that follow CARB guidelines.

In any of the non-CARB states do they make you test it before you can sell it to someone else?

 

[alexvtr]

I did indeed find a dealer willing to make a trade, and a representative from head office is assisting me with making sure that it is a fair swap. The dealer I am trading with is located in Oakville Ontario

Please keep us posted on the progress you make on this... I'm in Canada as well (now in Montreal but used to live in Oakville!) and so far, my only contact with the dealer has not been too positive.
Lowballed me @ 13600 for my 2014 Jetta Trendline+ DSG with 38000 km

 

[Rico567]

Well, we have definitely been outed....

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...y-reluctant-diesel-owners-115100800169_1.html

 

[hybridkiller]

The torque curve will be interesting.

I realize this is far from exact, but 10HP down @4K rpm equates to roughly 18 lb/ft less torque. How noticeable that will be in the low-mid range idk at this point - but I fear that in about a year or so I'm gonna get to find out...

 

[Willem_Dafoe]

Please keep us posted on the progress you make on this... I'm in Canada as well (now in Montreal but used to live in Oakville!) and so far, my only contact with the dealer has not been too positive.
Lowballed me @ 13600 for my 2014 Jetta Trendline+ DSG with 38000 km

Yea, my dealer seemed like he slipped up a bit when I first walked in the door, he was a bit nervous and said the word swap. I've held him too it. If they offered me a low ball price like that, I'd certainly would have had a hard time holding back my words. That's disgusting.

 

[compu_85]

It will be interesting to see how they do the wiring for this.

FWIW, this is the bundle of wires going to the urea tank on our '12 Passat:

-J