Volkswagen exec reaffirms commitment to diesel: ‘Now it is absolutely clean’

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Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??

For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Why are the high mileage Tesloop cars not to be considered in a discussion about vehicle longevity?
Because it's highly unlikely an individual owner would accumulate miles that fast, and under those more-or-less ideal conditions. Mild climate, good roads, easy access to charging stations allowing charging at times that optimizes battery life.
 

turbobrick240

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As Volvo helped pick up the tab for the work that helps as well.
If you read the instruction manual for the Volvo, decarburizing the cylinder head a every year or so and inspecting the bearings and replacing as necessary helps. If you follow the manual you will overhaul the car every few years.
I helped a friend work on his Volvo back in the 70's and in his case his wore out the oil pump shaft!
A car will run as long as you are willing an able to fix it as the Cubans have proven for 60 years.
Huh, I never heard that Volvo picked up part of his maintenance costs. I do know they gave him a new Volvo at every 1 million miles- 3.2 million btw. Makes sense though I guess.
https://www.indystar.com/story/money/2013/10/02/autos-irv-gordons-secrets-to-topping-3-million-miles-in-his-volvo/2908911/
 

turbobrick240

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Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??
For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.
First it gets a secondary life as grid storage. Then they get recycled. No big deal. Those lead acid battery recyclers are often a nightmare ecologically, btw. Though a heavily concentrated area of lead pollution has got to be better than moderate lead pollution everywhere.
 

casioqv

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Like Irv Gordon's 5? million mile Volvo. There's nothing magical about that car, though it is very cool.

I googled Irv to check how many he's up to now and found out he passed away last year :(



I do think the Volvo 1800 was built with unparalleled quality... and it didn't have the concessions to safety over durability later Volvos had (e.g. making the interior soft instead of tough). True, any Ship of Theseus will last forever if you just replace things as they break, but from what I've heard Irv's car actually had surprisingly little replaced or repaired.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
Well the older cars like that P1800 didn't HAVE a lot of stuff to repair or replace. That helps. We have several farm tractors from the early fifties, the first of the post-war new stuff, and they were, and still are, extremely good reliable and functional machines.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Volvos of that era weren't anything special. I owned a 122, good friend had an P544. Drove a few used 1800s as I always like the car. The 1800, like a lot of low volume cars of that era (think Karmann Ghia) were rust nightmares. Volvo's engines of that era closely resembled BMC engines (MGB), including oil leaks, consumption, and SU carbs that needed frequent maintenance. Electrical systems weren't that great, either. They were simple, however, and easy to fix. And my '67 122 had rear disc brakes and shoulder seat belts. Ahead of its time.

Jay Leno did a video of the P1800 that was used in the TV show "The Saint", starring Roger Moore. It was very rusty when it was restored, and that car lived in the UK where it doesn't snow.
 

jackbombay

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Because it's highly unlikely an individual owner would accumulate miles that fast, and under those more-or-less ideal conditions. Mild climate, good roads, easy access to charging stations allowing charging at times that optimizes battery life.
Conditions were far from ideal, most of the charging on the high mileage tesloop cars was done at "super charger" stations that are bad for the battery, use of the super chargers is supposed to be limited to long trips when "you have to charge quickly". The 450,000 mile tesloop car was supercharged regularly. That car did have the battery replaced twice.

https://insideevs.com/reviews/350883/tesla-model-s-review-450000-miles/

Remember when the guy here with the user name 5King was stacking miles on his new ALH at an absurd rate? As a Medical courier? He hit 400,000 in a very short time, nobody here was saying his high mileage numbers should be excluded from consideration due to the rate at which they were accumulated.
 

casioqv

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Well the older cars like that P1800 didn't HAVE a lot of stuff to repair or replace. That helps. We have several farm tractors from the early fifties, the first of the post-war new stuff, and they were, and still are, extremely good reliable and functional machines.

Please excuse me for waxing philosophical for a moment.

Simplicity is immortality... simple systems cannot age. Aging emerges from complexity.

Simple physical matter- a single atom for example, does not age. An atom can fail for sure (e.g. atomic decay) but the probability of failure per time is constant, it doesn't increase as things get older.

So then why do vehicles and people age, when we're just made up of a lot of atoms?

Because they are complex systems made of individual ageless components... however they are robust to just a few isolated failures. Ageless components do fail, they just are no more likely to fail when older vs when new. But complex systems over time accumulate failures, and therefore gradually become worse.

Simple systems cannot accumulate failures- when a single part fails they immediately stop working, and when fixed they have identical reliability as when new.

An example:
If you look at something outrageously complex like a Mercedes Benz HVAC system, it exhibits horrible aging. It will work, but worse and worse as small parts of it fail over time. Take a base model MKIV climate control system in comparison- if one part fails it doesn't work anymore. Parts break, but the system never ages... it will go just as long between failures in a 700k mile car as a 7k mile car.

Humans age in the same way, and actually enter an ageless period when old, where our body has failed to the point that it lacks normal levels of redundancy and complexity. At that point, our chance of death is high, but no longer increases over time. Each year you live, you are just as likely to live another year (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11742523).


In places like Cuba and countries that are not wealthy enough to afford new cars, all of them operate in late life ageless phase. Once complex luxury cars can become ageless when everything fails except the last individual parts essential to make the car move.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Remember when the guy here with the user name 5King was stacking miles on his new ALH at an absurd rate? As a Medical courier? He hit 400,000 in a very short time, nobody here was saying his high mileage numbers should be excluded from consideration due to the rate at which they were accumulated.
No, but his repair history should be excluded. He didn't replace dampers or brakes until he had over 400K on the car. I sold them to him. I asked how he got brakes to last so long, and he said he drove the same route every day, very light traffic, and he got so he could exit the highway, turn into the parking lot, and use is brakes only to stop when he was down to parking lot speed. And because Texas roads are pretty smooth and he didn't carry much, the dampers lasted far longer than normal. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
 

oilhammer

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outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
There is a time vs. distance thing to take into consideration, too. Since "most" TDIs purchased new, or even used, had fuel economy as a very high consideration to the buyer, one assumes that they piled on a lot of miles in a relatively short period of time. Which, in most cases, means a lot of highway miles which are generally far easier on any car.

So, two identical cars, one driven 5k miles a year, the other driven 25k miles a year, after 10 years may not really look or feel much different than each other assuming both were cared for the same. Subtle things like wear patterns on pedals, shift knobs, steering wheels, etc. can give a clue as to more miles sometimes. But it usually isn't something drastic.

And I am in and out of some pretty TRASHED cars that often do not have [to me] that many miles on them. People can be destructive pigs sometimes. Other cars are like museum pieces.
 

redbarron55

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Navarre, FL.
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2012 Touareg TDI Executive
I always felt that a high mileage car (say 100 K) that was driven highway miles was and had mostly driver seat wear was a good prospect to make a good second hand car.
Especially one that has a regular service history with the dealer (maybe good, maybe bad).
I just bought a 2012 Touareg TDI Executive with 96 K miles that was bought back and sat at the manufacturer's storage lot for a while. Regular service from Jim Ellis VW in Atlanta where there is little or no salt and was sold twice as a CPO used car by Ellis.
I think got a good deal and now to hope that the engine timing chains last...
Basically I believe in benign neglect and not starting new problems for no good reason.
That does not include oil changes etc
 

atc98002

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Auburn WA
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2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
Just to be clear the EV car population is way under 10yrs at this point. Try replacing one of the batteries at $10K and see how happy owners are about the cost saving they have gotten by not buying fuel, also try selling a 10yr old tesla that is about to need a new battery. I don't know the answer,but what are the warranties like in EV cars??

For all the environmentalists,what happens to a 1000lb used up battery? It's not like a lead acid that gets recycled easily.
I don't know if it's federally mandated, but it seems that most if not all EV batteries have a pretty reasonable battery capacity warranty. Kia is 7 year/100,000 miles to retain at least 70% capacity. I believe VW is going to have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty for 70%. Not counting the Leaf, with it's less than ideal battery cooling system, many other hybrids and EVs have reached substantial mileage on their original batteries. Tesla data shows that even after 140,000 miles most batteries are still at 90% capacity or better. It appears that an EV with proper battery cooling will not have a battery issues for the expected life of the car.

As to recycling, as already mentioned an EV battery can continue to function as local storage for a solar panel installation for many more years. There are also businesses ramping up lithium-ion recycling, as the minerals in the battery are worth enough to recycle.

But I said earlier, EV automobiles won't be completely replacing ICE vehicles for quite some time. I see both working side by side for many years, each doing what it does best. Would I buy another TDI? Yes I believe I would. Would I buy an EV in the future? I'm pretty sure that answer is yes as well. I personally have no conflict between the two. :)
 

flee

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Location
Chatsworth, CA
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2002 Jetta GLS wagon
We are into year 12 of owning an Escape hybrid, currently at 221,000 miles.
Not a real EV but it has AWD and I still get 26 mpg which is down from 29 originally.
This seems to indicate both the longevity of the battery tech and the ability of an
SUV, while compact, to deliver good economy over a long service life IMO.

All that being said, I would still be driving my '02 TDI but my 21 year old daughter is
the best fit for that vehicle insurance-wise.;)
 

El Dobro

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NJ
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There's a 2012 Volt named Sparkie that the original owner got up to 477,625 miles before it developed a problem. He sold it to a shop, which found the problem, repaired it and plans to continue driving it. They tested the battery and found it degraded only 20% after all that use.
 

Tdijarhead

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I just went to the fuel station and filled my golf 796 miles and the fuel light wasn’t on...had to have been close. I’ve had several (5-6 )800+ mile tanks since I’ve owned my golf. I fill the tank completely, the vent has been removed.

I love getting the most miles per fill up on this car. Which brings me to a question.

From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Because if I am, that would mean that under normal circumstances an electric car with a factory range of 300 miles would have an effective operating range of 180 miles without recharge. Between the low 20% (60 miles) and the high 80% (240 miles).

If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get “range anxiety “, which I never seem to have gotten in my golf. I would never even consider going to the fuel station at just below 1/4 tank and only filling to just over 3/4 that’s just silly.

I must not be understanding something in this whole equation. Oh and nwdiver don’t bother answering me, you’re on my ignore list, whatever you post I can’t see and have no intention of even trying to look.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Someone posted here recently that driving an EV is like driving a TDI with the low fuel light on all the time. Not really accurate as EV ranges have increased, but it's not that far off.

There are a lot of things I like about my MKIV TDI, but near the top of the list is the range between fills. Once you get used to 700+ miles on every fill, with some over 800, it's hard to go back to even the 500 per tank my GSW delivers. I would not enjoy recharging every 200 or so miles. And before someone posts "just plug it in at night," I have a 275 gallon over the road diesel tank with a pump at my house. So I can refill at home...in 5 min or less.
 

jackbombay

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Diesel knows best
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From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?
You're not understanding it correctly, nobody is trying to mislead you.

300 miles of range means you can drive it 300 miles, the car will limit charging to %80 and stop moving when you hit %20, with that %60 of the batteries maximum capacity the car can go 300 miles.

If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get “range anxiety “...
You think EV owners get range anxiety bad? My buddy has a Toyota Landcruiser, 1984 model, he gets 12 MPG, he has to fill up at 160 miles! HE ran out of gas in Nevada, he got 4 gallons, he had to go 50 miles to get to the next gas station, on 4 gallons, he ran out as he pulled into the gas station...
 

jackbombay

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Diesel knows best
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Someone posted here recently that driving an EV is like driving a TDI with the low fuel light on all the time.
If your daily driving is only 50 miles I see no issue, some people might let a fuel light control their emotions, but I know my car will go 100+ miles once the fuel light has come on so if I'm only driving 50 miles there is no reason to care about the fuel light.
 

atc98002

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Auburn WA
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2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?
Nah, not quite accurate. For best longevity, it's best to keep a battery between 20-80%, but it's not required, and many EV owners charge to 100% all the time with no significant impact on battery life. I believe it's more important to not drop below 20% too often, but that's really more in line with how I treat my gas tank anyway. Also, most EVs have artificial limits to the minimum and maximum charge limits. What they list as a 64 kW battery is restricted to a usable amount of perhaps 56-58 kW. The rest is used as a buffer at the top and bottom of the charging limits. Again, to provide better long term battery life.
 

bizzle

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Southern California
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I just went to the fuel station and filled my golf 796 miles and the fuel light wasn’t on...had to have been close. I’ve had several (5-6 )800+ mile tanks since I’ve owned my golf. I fill the tank completely, the vent has been removed.

I love getting the most miles per fill up on this car. Which brings me to a question.

From what I’m reading “filling up” an electric car that has a rated range of say 300 miles at a %100 charge, I’m not supposed to (fill up) charge it more than %80 percent (240 miles worth) of electricity and I’m never supposed to let it go below %20 percent (60 miles remaining) of its charge? Is that accurate or am I not reading and understanding this whole concept correctly?

Because if I am, that would mean that under normal circumstances an electric car with a factory range of 300 miles would have an effective operating range of 180 miles without recharge. Between the low 20% (60 miles) and the high 80% (240 miles).

If this is accurate, no wonder electric car owners get “range anxiety “, which I never seem to have gotten in my golf. I would never even consider going to the fuel station at just below 1/4 tank and only filling to just over 3/4 that’s just silly.

I must not be understanding something in this whole equation. Oh and nwdiver don’t bother answering me, you’re on my ignore list, whatever you post I can’t see and have no intention of even trying to look.
People are simply repeating what they've read from 20 years ago. The general rule you are citing is still accurate, but the end-user doesn't have to worry about it. Do you remember charging single cell rechargeables decades ago? Both the batteries and the chargers were dumb so the user had to monitor the charging cycles. Now you can still find dumb batteries but you'll be hard pressed to find a charger that isn't smart in some way--monitoring the battery condition as well as leveling it when necessary. As the technology improved, and became more dangerous, the battery packs themselves became smarter (compare the battery packs for any major cordless tool company) where one can't realistically charge a cell individually. Those packs, like all of the battery packs in any of the EVs we're discussing, have monitoring and stabilizing coding that the electricity has to flow through in order to charge them. They aren't raw cells that the end-user has to think about conditioning. When people only charge their batteries up to 80% on the dash the battery pack itself isn't at 80%. Similarly, when a driver is seeing 0% on the dash, there's still a bit of hidden capacity for emergency (in the eGolf this was called "Turtle" mode where everything would shut off and the motors would creep along at about 5mph for another couple miles so a driver could at least get off the main road and possibly make it to park and charge) and even then there's at least 20% more that the end-user will never see.

Batteries benefit from not being deep discharged or fully charged and the 20/80 just seems to be where the best efficiency curve is but that doesn't mean they don't also benefit from just keeping them at right around 50% charge at all times, which is what people manually limiting their charge cycles to 20/80 on the dash are doing. It's the same with mobile phones or any consumer device. End-users can't normally deplete batteries below the 20% threshold regardless of what the charge indicator is showing. This is especially true with Li-based batteries because they will literally explode when they become destabilized.

In comparison to liquid fuel based vehicles, I've been driving European imports for the last 30 years and it's always been my understanding to fuel them up before they drop much below 1/4 tank (or 1/8 tank, whatever...point being not to drive them to empty like you seem to be doing).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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In comparison to liquid fuel based vehicles, I've been driving European imports for the last 30 years and it's always been my understanding to fuel them up before they drop much below 1/4 tank (or 1/8 tank, whatever...point being not to drive them to empty like you seem to be doing).
What's next, 3000 mile oil change intervals? :D

When I bought my Rabbit Diesel in '78 I was warned not to run it out of fuel. Not because it was bad for the car, but because it would be hard to get it started again if I ran out. That's not true anymore. Running TDIs down to near nothing does absolutely no harm.
 

bizzle

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Southern California
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Funny how you feel the need to educate us on battery technology, and then you repeat a non-fact based guideline from 20 years ago. What's next, 3000 mile oil change intervals? :D
When I bought my Rabbit Diesel in '78 I was warned not to run it out of fuel. Not because it was bad for the car, but because it would be hard to get it started again if I ran out. That's not true anymore. Running TDIs down to near nothing does absolutely no harm.
I never said that running out of fuel makes a TDI hard to start. Is that really all you think about when someone advices someone else not to run or store a vehicle with no fuel in the tank?

Running any vehicle down to where there is no fuel left in the tank is an invitation for problems, regardless of year, make, or model. Waiting to fill your tank up for 800 miles, like the person I was responding to, also seems like a stupid way to drive around, regardless of what it could do to the car because of what it can do to the *driver*.

The post I wrote about battery tech was 100% accurate and if you have anything to augment or refute it, add to the conversation. Not sure what incentive you have to take potshots at my points.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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None
100% being a true 100% depends on the manufacturer - Tesla's usual practice is for 100% to actually mean 4.2 volts per cell, their cells' maximum charge voltage rating (unless a problem is detected which warrants reducing maximum charge voltage). So, if you need the range, you can use it, but you're advised that normal usage charging should be to 90% to extend longevity.

0% is almost never a true 0%, though, AFAIK everyone has some buffer at the bottom to avoid damage.
 

Tdijarhead

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2003 TDI Jetta Daughters Car, 2001 TDI Beetle, Daughters car, 2005 Golf TDI Mine, all 5 spds
300 miles of range means you can drive it 300 miles, the car will limit charging to %80 and stop moving when you hit %20, with that %60 of the batteries maximum capacity the car can go 300 miles.
...

Thank you, that is something I did not realize.



Running any vehicle down to where there is no fuel left in the tank is an invitation for problems, regardless of year, make, or model. Waiting to fill your tank up for 800 miles, like the person I was responding to, also seems like a stupid way to drive around, regardless of what it could do to the car because of what it can do to the *driver*.
.
One of the things we love about these cars is the incredible miles per gallon we can achieve. I have never run my car out of fuel, I agree that is pretty stupid.
However I don’t think I’m the only one who drives as far as I can on a tank of fuel. I don’t like to stop at the diesel pump every 2-3 days because my tank needs topping off.

If your driving style is such the you’re topping off every few days that’s fine I don’t care it’s your decision, just in my opinion, silly. Kinda like having to plug your electric car in every day.
 

Mythdoc

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Jan 28, 2017
Location
Tennessee
TDI
2011 Touareg, 2015 Q5, 2015 Golf
500 miles to fill up at around 1/4 tank seems pretty fine to me in my Q5 TDI. I have a couple of stations where I like to go, so when I am passing by, I stop. YMMV
 

35 Yr Dsl Veteran

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Ft. Pierce & Lake Placid, FL
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What's next, 3000 mile oil change intervals? :D

When I bought my Rabbit Diesel in '78 I was warned not to run it out of fuel. Not because it was bad for the car, but because it would be hard to get it started again if I ran out. That's not true anymore. Running TDIs down to near nothing does absolutely no harm.
I ran my '85 Ford Escort diesel out of fuel once. Walked to convenience store, bought a gallon of water, dumped out the water and filled bottle with diesel. Poured it in, and it started pretty easily.
 

tikal

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Southeast Texas
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2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
I don't know if it's federally mandated, but it seems that most if not all EV batteries have a pretty reasonable battery capacity warranty. Kia is 7 year/100,000 miles to retain at least 70% capacity. I believe VW is going to have an 8 year/100,000 mile warranty for 70%. Not counting the Leaf, with it's less than ideal battery cooling system, many other hybrids and EVs have reached substantial mileage on their original batteries. Tesla data shows that even after 140,000 miles most batteries are still at 90% capacity or better. It appears that an EV with proper battery cooling will not have a battery issues for the expected life of the car.

As to recycling, as already mentioned an EV battery can continue to function as local storage for a solar panel installation for many more years. There are also businesses ramping up lithium-ion recycling, as the minerals in the battery are worth enough to recycle.

But I said earlier, EV automobiles won't be completely replacing ICE vehicles for quite some time. I see both working side by side for many years, each doing what it does best. Would I buy another TDI? Yes I believe I would. Would I buy an EV in the future? I'm pretty sure that answer is yes as well. I personally have no conflict between the two. :)
According to this:

https://www.kia.com/us/content/dam/...ual/warranty-manual/2018_warranty_soul_ev.pdf

It is 120 months/100,000 miles and it is transferable and it includes the Battery pack (“EV Battery).

I presume the "small print" will say something like if you 'abused' it or extreme climate the warranty is either reduced or cancelled.
 
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