VNT17 MK4 Owners.... LSD or no LSD? Keep or remove BEW intake and head dividers?

[Mysticle31]

I'm currently deciding the fate of my 2005 BEW Wagon with a dead auto.

I'm days away form ordering a 6 speed. There is a small chance I pivot and get a DSG from a beetle. I can't find alot of good info on the DSG electronics....some say it is power, ground, can bus and reverse lights, others say it's more complicated. You could try and talk me out of a 6 speed and into a 5 speed if you want...

I'll probably end up with the 6 speed and an VNT-17 or hybrid. I'd love 185-190HP, but if I cant get there due to factory intercooler or factory downpipe..so be it.

Questions are...

1. LSD or not? What do you drive? How is second gear traction in the dry? Straight line, around corners? Wet? I'm pretty 50/50 on it right now, and I need to order soon.
2. What should I do to the BEW head? The engine is out and I'm inspecting and resealing everything. Should I do nothing? remove the dividers? Port match? Open the pocket book and send it to Franko6 or Whitbread? Id like to keep the swirl if it's good for lower end power.
3. VNT17 or Hybrid? 15? Which is best for low end spool, egts? Hybrids have a 10-15hp advantage over a 17, but have their own drawbacks.

 

[gforce1108]

In that hp range - don't worry about the head. Something bigger than vnt17 or even the 17/22 I'm running is needed before that (over 200hp). Same with the LSD. I was traction limited though second with my current setup. A blown diff pushed me to installing the Peloquin. Really nice, but not a necessity. With the 17/22 and my RC3+ tune, intake temps got out of hand. That's when I did the FMIC and the PD150 intake manifold (to ditch the crappy flappers in the ports - head stayed the same). I already had a 2.5" catless downpipe before that setup and moved to a 3" (2.5 is plenty though). I'm estimating I am in the 180+hp range?

FYI - the BRM manifold outflows the PD150 and is easier to find.

There are better turbos out there now. The 17/22 is old and hard to find. 1856 I think? xman turbos would have some good info.

 

[oilhammer]

A BRM or BHW head (just the bare head, not anything else) will bolt right on and doesn't have the worthless split ports, so it'll breathe better. Ditch that stupid intake and put one of the others on.

You cannot [easily] make the 02E work in that car, as you'd need lots and lots of other things to make it work. I'd just put a diesel 5sp manual in it and be done. LSD is nice, not gonna lie. But mostly helpful in winter weather more than anything.

 

[benmarks]

If you want a "set it and forget it" setup, I'd stick with the VNT-17 turbo. It's probably the most common turbo upgrade. If a parts reseller were to create an all-inclusive kit of engine mods to pair together, it'd probably look something like this: VNT-17, PD150 or equivalent injectors, 3 bar MAP sensor, South Bend Stage 2 Daily clutch, 2.5 inch downpipe, Malone or similar stage 4 tune. You don't need all of them (except for the MAP sensor,) but they all pair together really well. Upgrades above these would probably be necessary if you wanted to go over 200hp, but this setup would be ideal for your desired power range (or maybe slightly below your target.)

The 02M is also bolt-on, and another common upgrade, but I wouldn't say it's as common as the ones I just listed. Also, you'd need a different clutch if you go with an 02M. There's a South Bend one for it too, but I mean if you already had an upgraded clutch for the 5-speed, it wouldn't work on the 6-speed.

A lot of people here seem to really like their LSD's, but I can't comment on that yet because I haven't gotten my car back from having one added to my 02Y gearbox.

The PD150 intake manifold is also common, but I wouldn't call it truly bolt-on if you plan to keep your EGR. If you've deleted your EGR, than it's not really an issue.

As far as the head, this is far less my area of expertise. You probably don't need to do anything, though, for the power ranges you mentioned.

And, yeah, I think the DSG is a lot of work and might even require an ECU swap if I remember correctly (don't quote me on that.)

 

[Mysticle31]

The PD150 intake manifold is also common, but I wouldn't call it truly bolt-on if you plan to keep your EGR. If you've deleted your EGR, than it's not really an issue.

FYI - the BRM manifold outflows the PD150 and is easier to find.

Alot of mentions of the PD150 intake. I dont think I can run one. I have a vacuum diagram that clearly shows the butterfly vacuum valve and I'll need to maintain the look of it there if I'm going to pass emissions in calfiorna. I have to keep EGR too. I've thought about converting to a factory euro PD150 FMIC for the factory look plus upgrade. However, the intake and valve needed for emissions might be a limitation.

A BRM or BHW head (just the bare head, not anything else) will bolt right on and doesn't have the worthless split ports, so it'll breathe better. Ditch that stupid intake and put one of the others on.

So swap over to flush mount valves keeping BEW pistons? Fair amount of work.... Would it be easier to just grind out dividers?

Same with the LSD. I was traction limited though second with my current setup.

How was second with your setup? I might be just a little below you given I can't change my downpipe for sure and possibly will have upgraded SMIC but probably wont. What was your setup before and after your peloquin?
Part of my thought is the LSD would be an upgrade on tight twisties almost for sure, but what about slight bent WOT second gear?


I thought that the DSG would be complex! Wanted to ask anyway. Still to LSD or not given my limitations...

 

[benmarks]

Re the LSD, do you live in a snowy area, or are you mainly interested in high speed cornering?

Re PD150 FMIC, I just bought all of the parts to do this, but I won't be able to start that project until the current 4Motion project is complete. You may want to look at this, which is a similar kit. Darkside modifies an Audi S3 all-aluminum FMIC to be bolt-on:

Audi S3 Intercooler Conversion for 1.9 TDi PD100, PD115 & PD130 inc Alloy Radiator & Hard Pipework Kit

As standard the Audi S3 Intercooler does not fit the above models due to their side mount intercooler, difference in the front slam panel & radiator fitment This kit has specifically been designed to allow fitment of our modified Audi S3 intercooler to these models with the addition of a...

www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk

 

[Mysticle31]

I dont really live in a snowy area. I use "I could possibly take my car to the snow or down a dirt road" as an excuse for a wavetrac but then reality sets in and I realize I'm mostly interested in WOT 2nd gear fun around a medium size bend. I'm mostly interested in high speed or even medium speed low gear cornering.

 

[Nero Morg]

Keep in mind, if you're in an inspection area, you need to keep the engine looking factory. Sadly that includes the dual manifold junk.

I already have a 5speed built with a Wavetrac, and I can't wait to install it. With a stage 4 and our amazing raining weather here, I'm tired of the one tire fire.

 

[Rrusse11]

Love my Peloquin on the corners. I'd go a mild hybrid, I got lucky with my 17/22 some years ago, it had never been
installed. For the hp you're projecting, and for costs, stick with an 02J 5 spd and upgrade the 5th, don't be tempted to go
too high. With the EGR et al, leave in place and install a block off plate. I've got a PD150 manifold with "race pipe",
upgraded SMIC with stock pipes. Works fine for me, run a catch can to help keep the turbo clean.

My $.02 FWIW.

 

[oilhammer]

Oh, Califailia.... yeah, sorry for your troubles. Good luck.

 

[gforce1108]

How was second with your setup? I might be just a little below you given I can't change my downpipe for sure and possibly will have upgraded SMIC but probably wont. What was your setup before and after your peloquin?
Part of my thought is the LSD would be an upgrade on tight twisties almost for sure, but what about slight bent WOT second gear?

My setup was the same prior - everything in my sig minus the LSD. My trans spit a ring gear rivet though the diff, splitting the case. I picked up a 05 02j trans for parts with a stripped 5th gear. Proactively, I drilled out the rivets to replace with ARP. Unfortunately the diff is slightly different on the late 04+ MKIV trans. Even though I asked "the experts" if the hardware was the same - it was not (it is sold in may TDI stores as fitting up to 06). ARP does not make the correct parts - nobody seems to. Some used Dorman lug studs from a Toyota but I didn't trust it and replaced the whole diff with a Peloquin which came with hardware to attach the newer ring gear.

Previously I could spin through second gear. First was useless for any real acceleration. I was amazed at the difference... The engine actually was able to be "loaded" and launched hard. I just haven't driven it much to say how it handles. Never had an issue really unless it was wet. I daily drove it from 2006 to 2017 and in snow is was excellent (on actual snow tires).

Now that I have some other projects out of the way, I'm going to get it back on the road to keep some miles off of the A7 TDI.

 

[Mysticle31]

Califailia

Yes Califailia, we all like it. Just live here, and gotta get out. My MK1 woudn't survive in Montana.

Considering I must run a factory intercooler (maybe upgraded smic if I can hide it) and downpipe, should I consider changing to BHW or PD150 injectors or a hybrid turbo? Am I just pushing it too hard?

I think I'll use that to determine if I should get an LSD. If I shouldn't change the injectors and limited to 160-165hp, skip the LSD. If I can reach 180 on a factory downpipe I'll get an LSD. It will probably be more necessary. How would drivability and EGTs be?

Maybe a boost control switch for high boost for a pull or two and then less if EGTs get high, just thinking out loud...

 

[Nero Morg]

From what I've gathered a BEW can handle 150ish hp on stock internals, you theoretically could put a vnt 17 on it, and theoretically could have it tuned to be higher horsepower.... While theoretically could have all readiness monitors listed as passed.... Theoretically. . . .
Wink wink.

Might be a good investment to reach out to Malone.

 

[gforce1108]

From what I've gathered a BEW can handle 150ish hp on stock internals, you theoretically could put a vnt 17 on it, and theoretically could have it tuned to be higher horsepower.... While theoretically could have all readiness monitors listed as passed.... Theoretically. . . .
Wink wink.

Might be a good investment to reach out to Malone.

The BEW will handle well over that with stock internals - that's easy. 200 shouldn't even be a problem. Mine has been at somewhere over 180 since 2009 or so? It passes NYS plug in emissions testing with the EGR monitor deleted (reads N/A, instead of not ready). There are some less than reputable tuners that will make the monitors read ready (not Malone) - typically on CR TDIs that actually have them. A stock BEW shows ready right after clearing the CEL because there isn't a whole lot going on in there! Malone can do a dynamic tune that leaves the EGR hardware in place, but only uses it for warmups. A bigger turbo that allows EGR with that tune would keep everything legal from a plug in and visual inspection except probably in California where they are comparing the ECU software version to known legal versions.

 

[Mysticle31]

A bigger turbo that allows EGR with that tune would keep everything legal from a plug in and visual inspection except probably in California where they are comparing the ECU software version to known legal versions.

That is a big question. Based on reports from owners (and a database) known legal versions dont exist for 2004 and below. Entries for 2005+ do exist, however MK4s dont appear to be in the list! Which is good for me. It's also unclear if the identifying markers will change with a tune, turbo change vs emissions change. I'd love to see someone's 2005 BEW CALID and CVN (Mode 9 on vag com). Maybe I'll make a new post about it.

Should I run larger (BHW or PD150) injectors with the limits of the factory downpipe? If I have to run a stock ecu, I can't run the larger injectors. If the numbers dont change or arn't available for my platform, then I can run larger injectors no problem. However the question remains; is there a gain given the factory downpipe and [maybe] factory intercooler limitations.?

160-165hp, I'll skip the lsd. If I can come close to 180, I'll probably get one!

While theoretically could have all readiness monitors listed as passed.... Theoretically. . . .
Wink wink.

Ohhhh yeah. That's why I'm here! Theoretically Theoretically theoretically....

Does anyone know what the difference in mounting is between a US intake and a PD150 intake? Would a factory FMIC from europe work with a us intake manifold? Most people go straight to the PD150 manifold or manifold + fmic. I would want to run the factory euro fmic on us manifold...

 

[benmarks]

Could you clarify "intake?" Do you mean the PD150 intake manifold, or do you mean the PD150 snorkel/airbox/turbo intake pipe? Both are common intake upgrades,

See my post above re the factory PD150 front mounted intercooler. You either need that kit, or you need all of the following PD150 parts: radiator mount, fan mount, fans, AC condenser, radiator and FMIC. All other MK4's came with a side mounted intercooler. The PD150 parts are designed to sandwich together like this:

FMIC.jpg

• benmarks
• Dec 12, 2021

With that said, with your desired power range, I think the intercooler is probably the lowest priority.

 

[Nero Morg]

I think you'll be plenty happy with an upgraded smic like the taco taco

Upgraded SMIC Intercooler for ALH TDI (AAR1224)

Upgraded SMIC Intercooler for ALH TDI (ALH-SMIC)

www.tunemyeuro.com

I don't think it's something that would be inspected. I also don't know, as I'm not in California. But from what I gather is they're mostly looking for stock engine looking stuff and the presence of an exhaust feline.

 

[gforce1108]

That is a big question. Based on reports from owners (and a database) known legal versions dont exist for 2004 and below. Entries for 2005+ do exist, however MK4s dont appear to be in the list! Which is good for me. It's also unclear if the identifying markers will change with a tune, turbo change vs emissions change. I'd love to see someone's 2005 BEW CALID and CVN (Mode 9 on vag com). Maybe I'll make a new post about it.

Should I run larger (BEW or PD150) injectors with the limits of the factory downpipe? If I have to run a stock ecu, I can't run the larger injectors. If the numbers dont change or arn't available for my platform, then I can run larger injectors no problem. However the question remains; is there a gain given the factory downpipe and [maybe] factory intercooler limitations.?

160-165hp, I'll skip the lsd. If I can come close to 180, I'll probably get one!


Ohhhh yeah. That's why I'm here! Theoretically Theoretically theoretically....

Does anyone know what the difference in mounting is between a US intake and a PD150 intake? Would a factory FMIC from europe work with a us intake? Most people go straight to the PD150...

Skip the injectors - no need until around 200hp. This turbo allows the use of EGR so would still keep all emissions equipment in place: https://www.idparts.com/garrett-vnt-turbocharger-bew-1700250440-p-761.html It requires a different cooler pipe that is mentioned in the description.
You would not be able to run the PD150 intake manifold and keep EGR. As far as the factory FMIC, I don't think you can - and it would definitely need a tune if you use the PD150 airbox (larger MAF). I know I checked with Korwerks who imports the complete ARL PD150 setups and I believe it does not fit. A slightly upgraded SMIC will be more than enough. My factory SMIC was fine with a "1+" tune.

The main thing you need to figure out is whether a tune, even emissions intact, will pass Cali emissions testing. I'm sure it would pass plug in and even snif test. If they are comparing ECU tune files, then - no.

You could however, run that VNT17 with a tune (even dynamic EGR "delete") with all other stock hardware, then flash back to stock when doing emissions testing. Reflash when complete. Tunezilla by Malone would do the trick.

 

[benmarks]

As far as the factory FMIC, I don't think you can - and it would definitely need a tune if you use the PD150 airbox (larger MAF). I know I checked with Korwerks who imports the complete ARL PD150 setups and I believe it does not fit.

A PD150 FMIC or Darkside's slightly modified Audi S3 FMIC fit, you just need all the parts I mentioned above and linked to via Darkside. They all sandwich together. It's not cheap. You definitely cannot buy the FMIC by itself. The advantage of this Darkside kit vs. a PD150 FMIC is that you don't need the PD150 radiator mount. You still need to PD150 fans, though, because their motors are way shallower.

Audi S3 Intercooler Conversion for 1.9 TDi PD100, PD115 & PD130 inc Alloy Radiator & Hard Pipework Kit

As standard the Audi S3 Intercooler does not fit the above models due to their side mount intercooler, difference in the front slam panel & radiator fitment This kit has specifically been designed to allow fitment of our modified Audi S3 intercooler to these models with the addition of a...

www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk

 

[gforce1108]

A PD150 FMIC or Darkside's slightly modified Audi S3 FMIC fit, you just need all the parts I mentioned above and linked to via Darkside. They all sandwich together. It's not cheap. You definitely cannot buy the FMIC by itself. The advantage of this Darkside kit vs. a PD150 FMIC is that you don't need the PD150 radiator mount. You still need to PD150 fans, though, because their motors are way shallower.

Audi S3 Intercooler Conversion for 1.9 TDi PD100, PD115 & PD130 inc Alloy Radiator & Hard Pipework Kit

As standard the Audi S3 Intercooler does not fit the above models due to their side mount intercooler, difference in the front slam panel & radiator fitment This kit has specifically been designed to allow fitment of our modified Audi S3 intercooler to these models with the addition of a...

www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk

Too many issues with darkside for me to ever order from them! Chris had the whole front cut of the ARL cars (to match the rear cut you have!). I already had the full custom FMIC on my car at the time, but for some reason was asking about the PD150 setup he imprted. Might have been for someone else and it wouldn't work in that situation. I used to live a mile from Korwerks (now 30 minutes), so it's easy to browse his selection. He has a ton of parts!!!

 

[benmarks]

Too many issues with darkside for me to ever order from them! Chris had the whole front cut of the ARL cars (to match the rear cut you have!). I already had the full custom FMIC on my car at the time, but for some reason was asking about the PD150 setup he imprted. Might have been for someone else and it wouldn't work in that situation. I used to live a mile from Korwerks (now 30 minutes), so it's easy to browse his selection. He has a ton of parts!!!

Did he mention when he was going to start selling the ARL engines. He sent me a photo, but when I asked when they might be available for sale, I didn't get a reply.

 

[Mysticle31]

Skip the injectors - no need until around 200hp.

Dont you mean no need until 165hp? BEW injectors max out about 165, BHW about 200, and PD150 even more.... According to my research. I just want to know if I can break 165 given factory US BEW downpipe, EGTs..etc. If it can touch 180 it becomes worth it to consider LSD, injectors. If it's too much, skip it and save the money.

The rest of your ideas gforce are gold and exactly what I was thinking. I may even consider swapping downpipes every few years if it's easy enough. Get some never seize and a couple hours

Could you clarify "intake?" Do you mean the PD150 intake manifold, or do you mean the PD150 snorkel/airbox/turbo intake pipe? Both are common intake upgrades

Both. I was thinking to run the PD150 FMIC with the US butterfly BEW intake manifold. Any known differences between the US manifold and the PD150 one? I wont be able to run a PD150 manifold and the intercooler must look factory, so that's pretty much my only option.

See my post above re the factory PD150 front mounted intercooler. You either need that kit, or you need all of the following PD150 parts: radiator mount, fan mount, fans, AC condenser, radiator and FMIC. All other MK4's came with a side mounted intercooler. The PD150 parts are designed to sandwich together like this:

Love this picture. I think your right about intercooler being last on the list. I'll probably still get a pull or two out before heatsoak. Plus I'd have to run a euro only radiator and condenser and intercooler.... harder to get parts.

I've been in touch with Korwerks for the 6 speed and possible factory FMIC.

Audi S3 FMIC is neat, but doesn't look even close to factory enough to pass in CA.

I'd be better off running an upgraded SMIC on factory ALH pipes and paint the end tanks black while hiding it all under an extended skidplate.

 

[benmarks]

Re injectors and nozzles. you can find a lot of info at this site: https://www.dbwllc.net

You can also search the forum for the username Drivbiwire for some additional info like this:

Pd150 injectors vs pd100 injectors with nozzles

I have an option here from a local guy. He has 2 sets. A set of pd150 injectors or pd100 injectors with sprint 1043 nozzles installed. Do the nozzle set equal pd150's or are they less or more? Trying to decide which to get as I have a bigger turbo swap coming too.

forums.tdiclub.com

You can take your stock injectors and upgrade the nozzles and get better performance that stock PD150 injectors.

 

[benmarks]

However, I just read this:

ECU-tuned cars will now automatically flunk California smog testing

However, the state still says you're free to flash an ECU to stock and return the tune after the test.

www.cnet.com

I guess if you get the equipment and can flash back and forth, you can do whatever you want, but a lot of these mods like turbo, injectors, PD150 turbo intake pipe/MAF are all going to require a tune to get optimal performance.

 

[Judson]

Hmmm. How would they know? Our computers I don’t think store a flag. If they hook up a ODB scan gauge what would they look for? And for a 20 year old car, unless you have some serious modifications like an FMIC, again how would they know? Seems to me if the tailpipe emissions are acceptable then you should be good.
Anybody with direct CA experience here?

 

[gforce1108]

Hmmm. How would they know? Our computers I don’t think store a flag. If they hook up a ODB scan gauge what would they look for? And for a 20 year old car, unless you have some serious modifications like an FMIC, again how would they know? Seems to me if the tailpipe emissions are acceptable then you should be good.
Anybody with direct CA experience here?

I mentioned it earlier. Cali has been recording the software revisions of cars being tested and making a database. From there, they can tell if a car is running a factory tune or something else.

 

[Nero Morg]

But is that for EDC15 cars, or EDC16 and newer? Last I heard there's no way to tell if an ALH was tuned if done properly...

 

[Mysticle31]

You can take your stock injectors and upgrade the nozzles and get better performance that stock PD150 injectors.

Awesome! I just did a bunch of research on this about the size of the pump and flow path.
I can't reconcile the difference between BEW injectors vs DLC800s...
According to what I've read BEW injectors max out about 165, BHW about 200, and PD150 more than I care about.
Pete/DBWLLC says DLC 800s are +42% over Stock Flow (vs the 100hp Bosch DSLA 150P 1362 nozzle) 100-170hp. That's not alot of upgrade for 40% more. I'm confused.

Anyone know which BEW injectors are best? Apparently my 05 are 7.5mm and not the ones to use.
I could go to 1043s. Any chance they would run and pass a smoke check? I doubt it. I need to figure that out.

 

[PakProtector]

Are you sure you have the small pumps on your BEW? I have yet to see a notice that BEW came with anything but the good 8mm pumps( vs the 'bad' 8mm PD150 pumps ).

I have a set of BHW pumps and they have 1043 tips( OE Bosch ), and the BHW is a 135 hp engine...so they should outrun a BEW set degree of firing angle for degree( so to say, keeping the injectors lit for the same amount of crank angle, the BHW should deliver more fuel).

The expense of re-noozling PD injectors is kinda steep, but as my BEW ages and accumulates miles I suspect I will indulge in that at some point...still keeping the personal argument going as to DLC800's or DLC1043's, and no I doubt I will tune it. Or maybe I will as that practice is likely about over with now.
cheers,
Douglas

 

[dhangejr]

My LSD helps me get moving in traffic without spinning one tire , the car accelerates much smoother with it even in the dry , but in the rain is where is is amazing! When the tian comes suddenly I’m able to get out in traffic faster than most people dis the spinning a tire and I’m getting traction to both. now if only I can get the power to be so smooth in my car.
I used a hybrid turbo on my BEW many tubers don’t like tuning hybrids some won’t. Food for thought ; they have boost control issues. I think the vnt 15 spoils faster too. As far as head work , I opted not to myself , but oil hammers comment is gonna be stored away in my Brian. bhw head > than bew head