Tough Start after sitting

[Ookpic]

I'm hoping someone can chime in and give me some ideas...
I have a 2002 Golf 2Dr with 298k kms. I picked up this from a family member last spring. Did a bunch of overdue maintenance like brakes, suspension, exhaust.
Here's the problem. It's tough to start after it's been sitting for a while (4-8hrs). When it does start it sputters and misses a bit and smokes but then within seconds evens out and runs like a champ. If I shut it down and restart, it fires right up. Here is a video I made before I installed the new starter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz9E6qBGJ6o

I talked to the previous owner and he said it was always tough in the cold. This is my second TDI, my other starts instantly. The thing is, it's been getting worse and sometimes stalls once.

Questions...
If a glowplug wasn't working, will it throw a code?
If the harness wasn't working, will it throw a code?

Things I've checked...
Timing. I plugged my VCDS in and the timing was WAY out so I adjusted the IP pulley accordingly and had it sitting perfect just under the high side of advanced on the graph consistently.

Fuel. I pulled the supply fuel line off of the filter and connected it to my hand vacuum gave one pump and fuel poured out no problem. I changed the filter anyway as well as the thermostatic control valve. I have visually verified there is no air in the fuel line after sitting for extended periods.

Starter. Car was very slow turning over when cold and having gone through this issue with my other car, I went ahead and changed the starter with a brand new Bosch.

Battery. New last year.

 

[Seatman]

It's a bit slow at cranking, reminds of how my car was before replacing the starter and battery. If the battery isn't new I'd be inclined to have it properly tested, mine was down to about 70% efficient, previous one was about 33%! Ok in the warmer weather but knackered as soon as it got cold.

 

[annieneff]

Answering the question "why was the timing way off?" Is an important step. Crank pulley walking?

Most likely though you have a fuel leak. And even more likely is its the injection pump leaking. Look, closely, for wet spots all around the pump. Look at the fuel lines between the injectors. Those are the usual places. Especially considering the mileage yours has.
Probably the ip leaking.

Good luck--

Andrew

 

[ffemtp]

If had a glow plug or plugs going bad you will get a CEL.
If the harness is bad, you will get a CEL.

What oil are you using?

 

[Ookpic]

@Seatman - The battery was new OEM last year and has been load tested at the beginning of this winter. The starter has been changed since this video. It turns over nice and fast now but still has issue on first start.

@annieneff - The timing being off was a concern. I have no idea why it was so far off? I assumed the last person that changed the timing belt either didn't do a final check or belt had stretched? I'll check the timing again when I get to work today. If it's off again, I'll get it changed again. The only time the engine is ever fully warm. lol The only visible leaks were oil leaks that have been repaired. Slight oil leak around valve cover gasket, vacuum pump seal, and oil cooler o-ring. All have been repaired. IP is totally dry, fuel supply and return lines to IP are dry, all return lines and supply lines to injectors are dry.

@ffemtp - Thanks for answering the questions. I was sure that if the harness or any of the glow plugs weren't working, it would throw some sort of code. I'm running Rotella T6 5W40.

 

[ffemtp]

Ok, something else to consider.

If you let the car sit for a full day (or more) when the weather was warmer did you notice a slightly slower starter when you started up?

Wondering if you might have a parasitic drain on the battery, made worse by the cold...

Just tossing ideas around....

 

[Ookpic]

I've left the car for extended periods (2-3 days). With new starter it turns over fine, just doesn't fire. It's supposed to be -22C (-7F) tonight so I'll record another video tonight when done work so you can hear it. I'm sure it will be rough.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Check the case pressure relief valve on the top of the injection pump. It'll walk out over time and cause issues.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=238872

 

[Ookpic]

I don't have an in tank lift pump as described in link but assuming my pump has this valve, I'll check it out. Could this valve mess with the timing? If I can keep the engine warm enough, I'll graph the timing when I get home. This thing runs tickety boo once started.

Sent from Tapatalk

 

[jettawreck]

Since the timing was off a fair bit perhaps the prior TB job was a bit of a hacked deal and/or mark and pray event. Maybe now even wih the timing appearing to be set correctly if the cam/crank physical timing is off a bit it will never be quite right.

 

[Ookpic]

The timing before wasn't even in the graph. Obviously super fine hair moves to bring it back in time. I personally know the guy that did the belt and he is a local guru so I wouldn't think he did a subpar job or took any shortcuts. If anything accidentally. I'll see if the timing is out again and if it is, I'll order a new timing belt and get my new guru to have a crack at it.

Sent from Tapatalk

 

[Ookpic]

Too tired to check timing. Will check it tomorrow. I did have a look under hood again before starting. Only the 1 small air bubble but fuel present in line. Temp was -13C.

Video of under the hood

Video of start

Maybe I just need to worry less and drive more. It just doesn't feel right to me when compared to my Jetta starting.

 

[djrhetoric]

Sounds like a similar issue that I used to experience frequently in the winter, but now it happens a lot less often. I even posted about all my troubleshooting here... My videos seem to mimic yours.

I haven't updated the thread in quite a while, but the Stage 1.5 Malone tune I put on the car seemed to help the issue a ton. It will still crop up every so often, but nothing like the 10 seconds of cranking that I would have to endure at times.

Things I've done since that thread died:

• Replaced glow plugs and harness
• New Bosch starter
• Back-tapped glow plug threads and cleaned the seats/bores

I sprayed some PB Blaster around my glow plugs while the engine was running and noticed I was getting a ton of bubbles. After running a thread back-tap and cleaning the seat for the glow plugs, I could hand thread all of them in until they bottomed out. Result = no more bubbles around glow plugs. Even with this the weird stumble starting still exists at random times.

If I dual cycle the glow plugs, that seems to eliminate it, but I have no proof that it wouldn't have started in 1 crank without doing that. I've decided to stop wrapping my head around the issue and just drive the car. I think I'm expecting too much perfection out of a 12 year old car with 229k miles on it.

 

[50harleyrider]

Diesels just don't like cold starts. Get a Frostheater installed and use it often!

 

[Ookpic]

@djrhetoric - Thanks for the link. I do have a Malone Stage 1 tune. Can't do much more without a new clutch, it's still original. This thing runs so smooth and torquey after the initial roughness that I can't imagine I have a clogged nozzle. Subsequent starts even when the engine is stone cold fires right up. This ONLY happens after sitting for a while. I regularly get between 1100kms and 1200kms to a tank of fuel so absolutely no complaints there. I'm leaving early for work today specifically to check timing when I get there so we'll see if it's still on target. If not, I'll schedule a timing belt change early. It's not due for another 30k kms but if timing is moving then I'd rather bite the bullet now than doing a head and pistons later.

@50harleyrider - I hear you and I'm trying not to let it bug me too much. It never has let me down and I wouldn't have even posted but it seems to be getting worse ie longer and longer to start. My Jetta which is the same year, similar kms starts no problem what so ever. ie raih, raih, vroom <-- technical talk! I have a frost heater on my Jetta and it does work, however it is less than 3 years old and it is leaking due to corrosion around one of the ports. The Jetta has a 1/4" Evo skid plate and has seldom seen snow. The coolant was changed when I installed it. The biggest issue I have with Frost heater is no place to plug one in at work which is where I truly need it.

 

[djrhetoric]

Yup. That's exactly when it happens on my car as well. I have shut it off instantly after it smooths out and it will fire up instantly. It's a tough issue to troubleshoot because you only get one shot every 8 hours or so, and it has to be cold. My mechanical timing was spot on and I even tried different IP timing settings to see if it made a difference to no avail.

I hope you can figure out what it is!

 

[Ookpic]

So got a chance to check timing. It was -18C tonight when I left work. After driving on the freeway for several kms I pulled over and plugged in VCDS and it appears to be still in time! Sorry for the crappy pic. I couldn't remember how to screen shot in Windows running on my macbook pro.

 

[[486]]

Happens to all of mine, I'm told that the injectors are probably hanging and letting fuel bleed down or some such, I'm too cheap to pay someone to rebuild my injectors though.

 

[Ookpic]

If I knew that was the problem for sure, I'd just buy a set. Problem with injectors is if I buy a new set, they will be upgraded. Problem with that is I have a stage 1 tune on original clutch. So putting fresh upgraded injectors in will inevitably force me to replace the clutch and then of course a new tune to take advantage of them. It's a slippery slope. lol

 

[whitedog]

I would start by looking at the injection pump for leaks.

 

[Ookpic]

No visible leaks on any pressure lines. No visible wetness around pump head. No visible leaks around injector return lines. No visible leaks at the new fuel filter supply and return lines and Thermostatic T. No air bubbles in supply line. It's supposed to go above 0C this weekend, I'll do a more complete inspection to triple check. I know it's getting fuel because that first start billows smoke. If I had a spare set of injector with nozzles I'd throw them in just for fun to verify it's not that.