tdi alh slow cranking,

[zipp]

my 2002 jetta has been giving me trouble, i purchased this vehicle in early june so as the cold weather is now in season, i am now starting to learn the cars problems, the car was hardly cranking and i could hear my start grinding and spinning, i also could not hold my key turned and continue to fire the car as it would cause a grinding sound. so first thing i did was test my battery with a multimeter, 12.3v car off, 14.34 car running, 9.7v when trying to start the car. I confirmed that my battery is okay as well by taking it to get tested and it passed rated for 790cca battery is also from 2018 so not to old. okay battery seems to check out?, i checked the grounds and all the terminals for corrosion & cleaned the lugs with sand paper back to shiny copper, but this didnt help, i ordered a starter & glowplugs from fcp and installed it seemed like it fixed the problem for about a day, following day trying to leave work car wouldn't start it was hardly cranking until tried boosting it off a co workers car and nothing, called CAA and they showed up with a van and 2 battery packs and they couldnt get my car started... came back later and eventually got the car home, next day i tried starting it with another battery from my newer tdi and nothing same thing it wouldnt crank, tracing all my steps after installing the starter confirming everything was good, i noticed a wire was loose on the 4 pin connector that runs to the alternator, i cut the connector off and made solid connections of the wires. car fired up after and it lasted for about 2 days, before getting stuck again, very slow cranking and no pops or nothing i eventually got it running after a boost. so im pretty lost i got the battery tested already but i will do it again to make sure? any thoughts


Glow plugs and starter ordered from fcp euro

 

[[486]]

positive cable usually seems to break off right at the cable lug
check ground cable too
voltage drop testing will tell the tale

new starter might not be good starter either

 

[ghohouston]

Grinding means the starter needs to be rebuilt or replaced. People here will say to get a Bosch starter, but my oreillys starter is on it's 2nd winter no problems yet. That's not to say you don't have other issues, but low voltage does not directly cause a starter to grind.

 

[fatmobile]

Crank for a while then feel all the cable connections.
Both ends and especially the starter posts.
And ground cable ends.
Bad connections will get warm/hot.

 

[Tdijarhead]

12.3 sitting in the driveway with the car off is a battery that has seen better days. 12.6-12.8 new or freshly charged battery. 12.3.-12.5 still serviceable. 12.2 and below you chance getting stuck someplace. So you’re borderline, in cold weather you’ll probably have issues.

Also when cranking you’re looking to not go below about 10.8. With the info you provided my guess is the battery. Do some more testing with your multimeter and post up the results.

 

[AndyBees]

I have a battery that shows 12.72 volts, but it will not start my Jetta TDI on a 40f morning! I replaced it with a new battery. Now, the car starts just fine.
The old battery (3 years old) was drained down below 10 volts a couple of times due to various reasons. Draining a battery like that cuts it's usable life drastically.

I suspect the replacement starter (likely a reman) is no good. If the battery is testing okay, the cables will get hot from long cranking with a good or bad starter. Make sure all the ground connections are good.

 

[zipp]

12.3 sitting in the driveway with the car off is a battery that has seen better days. 12.6-12.8 new or freshly charged battery. 12.3.-12.5 still serviceable. 12.2 and below you chance getting stuck someplace. So you’re borderline, in cold weather you’ll probably have issues.

Also when cranking you’re looking to not go below about 10.8. With the info you provided my guess is the battery. Do some more testing with your multimeter and post up the results.

Going to pickup a battery tomorrow and we'll confirm!

 

[GlowBugTDI]

I do not recommend a oriellys or other off brand starter. I live in MN and they do not last winters

 

[GlowBugTDI]

Look for my "how a starter locked my engine" thread. I'll look for it and try to add it. I couldn't even pop the car off when pullung down the road. It just completely locked the drive system.

Here ya go.

How an O'riellys starter locked my engine... :-(

I know this has been talked about, but I'm putting this out there for future reference. So for everyone in the future who might be on the fence of whether or not to get a Bosch or off brand starter here is something that happened to me. I know a lot of people say not to get the cheap starters...

forums.tdiclub.com

 

[zipp]

I do not recommend a oriellys or other off brand starter. I live in MN and they do not last winters

yeah its a bosch starter!

 

[Mozambiquer]

Make sure you don't have any belt driven components that are hard to turn (alternator, power steering AC compressor) or timing belt idlers. I saw that issue once where it ended up being one of the timing belt idlers. Thankfully it died right after startup one day, and I was called to check it out. I pulled the timing belt cover to look at it, and it started right up, but I noticed a tear starting in the belt and shut it down right away. Towed it to the shop and found the small idler pulley down below was the one that locked up. Thankfully no damage was done, but it almost killed the engine.
That, and the battery cable load testing is what I would check first.

 

[zipp]

so update, i just put a new battery and it still wont start... very slow cranking

 

[zipp]

Make sure you don't have any belt driven components that are hard to turn (alternator, power steering AC compressor) or timing belt idlers. I saw that issue once where it ended up being one of the timing belt idlers. Thankfully it died right after startup one day, and I was called to check it out. I pulled the timing belt cover to look at it, and it started right up, but I noticed a tear starting in the belt and shut it down right away. Towed it to the shop and found the small idler pulley down below was the one that locked up. Thankfully no damage was done, but it almost killed the engine.
That, and the battery cable load testing is what I would check first.

Maybe relay 109?

 

[AndyBees]

Actually, you could take the 109 Relay out and the starter will spin the engine over just fine. The "start" circuit from the ignition to the solenoid on the starter has nothing to do with Relay 109.

The sound you were hearing is when the starter kicks-out and appears to spin on. The bushing is dry of lubricant. However, I've used a starter for years with it making that noise. What I call grinding is due to a weak battery or a worn out starter.

As for as rebuilt starters from the parts stores, well, it is a crap shoot. I put three of them on my 89 Vanagon before hitting on a good one. The first one was a Bosch reman. On occasion, it would just stay kicked-in. The second one ate a shield on the bendix. The third one is still working just fine after three years.

I have two OE Bosch TDI starters that will spin just fine on the bench, but they would "drag" when trying to start the engine with a brand new battery. Disassembling and greasing the reduction gears did not help either starter ........... simply put, worn out bushings!

 

[zipp]

Actually, you could take the 109 Relay out and the starter will spin the engine over just fine. The "start" circuit from the ignition to the solenoid on the starter has nothing to do with Relay 109.

The sound you were hearing is when the starter kicks-out and appears to spin on. The bushing is dry of lubricant. However, I've used a starter for years with it making that noise. What I call grinding is due to a weak battery or a worn out starter.

As for as rebuilt starters from the parts stores, well, it is a crap shoot. I put three of them on my 89 Vanagon before hitting on a good one. The first one was a Bosch reman. On occasion, it would just stay kicked-in. The second one ate a shield on the bendix. The third one is still working just fine after three years.

I have two OE Bosch TDI starters that will spin just fine on the bench, but they would "drag" when trying to start the engine with a brand new battery. Disassembling and greasing the reduction gears did not help either starter ........... simply put, worn out bushings!

I just went to vw this morning for a new battery now it sounds alot better when trying to start however it still wont start, when I turn the key aswell the glow plug light will turn on for only a second

 

[Mozambiquer]

Maybe relay 109?

No, relay 109 won't cause slow cranking.

@AndyBees if you read his statement, it was grinding with the old starter, not the new one

I would be checking the belt drive components. Pull the serpentine belt and see if any of the belt drive parts are rough and don't turn easily. Open the timing belt cover and look at the idlers (speaking of that, when was the timing belt last replaced?)

 

[zipp]

No, relay 109 won't cause slow cranking.

@AndyBees if you read his statement, it was grinding with the old starter, not the new one

I would be checking the belt drive components. Pull the serpentine belt and see if any of the belt drive parts are rough and don't turn easily. Open the timing belt cover and look at the idlers (speaking of that, when was the timing belt last replaced?)

Timing belt was replaced within the last 60k however with the new battery, the starting sounds alot better continuous cranks now, but won't turn over & glow plug light still comes on for a second

 

[Mozambiquer]

Timing belt was replaced within the last 60k however with the new battery, the starting sounds alot better continuous cranks now, but won't turn over & glow plug light still comes on for a second

Then for sure check the timing components! The car I worked on had only 40k miles and the idler had locked up.

 

[GlowBugTDI]

I have two OE Bosch TDI starters that will spin just fine on the bench, but they would "drag" when trying to start the engine with a brand new battery. Disassembling and greasing the reduction gears did not help either starter ........... simply put, worn out bushings!

Ive had the same happen. Mine turned out to be a bad casing/housing.

 

[Mozambiquer]

I personally like using the Valeo version, as they're slightly more powerful and they're not the permanent magnet style, which can break if they get dropped, or a farmer hits them with a hammer...
Like these: Valeo starter

 

[AndyBees]

No, relay 109 won't cause slow cranking.

@AndyBees if you read his statement, it was grinding with the old starter, not the new one

I would be checking the belt drive components. Pull the serpentine belt and see if any of the belt drive parts are rough and don't turn easily. Open the timing belt cover and look at the idlers (speaking of that, when was the timing belt last replaced?)

I'm well aware of which starter he was referring to. (I've read the Post twice or more). That's why I went on in my Post that you quoted to share my experiences with a parts store remanufactured starter. It's a crap shoot. And, in my first Post, I did refer to the new starter. Did you read all of my post?

 

[AndyBees]

I just went to vw this morning for a new battery now it sounds alot better when trying to start however it still wont start, when I turn the key aswell the glow plug light will turn on for only a second

Have you checked the Timing with VCDS? If the timing is outside the window it will not start good at all. You can wear out a new battery and starter with a high mileage engine that's out of time. The GP light will not stay on very long, however, that doesn't mean that the GP relay(s) are not kicked-in glowing the plugs. But, in this case, I would glow the GPs at least two times to see if it makes a difference.

Also, once you get the engine running, does it smooth out and idle okay? Does it run good out on the road?

 

[[486]]

I kinda like orielleys starters
you only buy one and they're so crappy you can trade in a different one every couple weeks and they won't even look at you funny
granted you do end up going through 2-3 of them before finding one that works for a little while

 

[[486]]

OP: checked the cables themselves yet?
Don't matter for **** if the ends are sandpapered clean when they've got a weak bit in the middle

 

[Smokin' Dually]

Ditto the cables being suspect. My Wisconsin cars had corrosion in the cables near the end (can't see it), both positive and negative AND the charge cable from the alternator to the battery. They are marginal on size and when they start to corrode, the starter starts a cascade to failure.

Low current causes problems with the solenoid contacts and once that's damaged, it's all downhill. The corrosion in the charge cable keeps the battery from getting a full charge too. After upgrading my battery cables to 00 welding cable (way too big but I had it laying around) and the charge cable to #4, both cars finally crank normally.

 

[fatmobile]

I don't know.
He hasn't mentioned cranking it for awhile and feeling the cables.
Pretty easy test.
One time it was inside the positive battery cable end.

 

[zipp]

Have you checked the Timing with VCDS? If the timing is outside the window it will not start good at all. You can wear out a new battery and starter with a high mileage engine that's out of time. The GP light will not stay on very long, however, that doesn't mean that the GP relay(s) are not kicked-in glowing the plugs. But, in this case, I would glow the GPs at least two times to see if it makes a difference.

Also, once you get the engine running, does it smooth out and idle okay? Does it run good out on the road?

That's my next step, trying to get it started so I can drive it to the nearest vw mechanic

 

[zipp]

I don't know.
He hasn't mentioned cranking it for awhile and feeling the cables.
Pretty easy test.
One time it was inside the positive battery cable end.

I've tried bypassing my cables with jumpers right to the starter and the block & still nothing, so I don't think it could be my postive or negative cables

 

[zipp]

I've tried bypassing my cables with jumpers right to the starter and the block & still nothing, so I don't think it could be my postive or negative cables or ground?

 

[ghohouston]

I've tried bypassing my cables with jumpers right to the starter and the block & still nothing, so I don't think it could be my postive or negative cables

Not trying to be funny here, but did you also jump the starter solenoid from the battery terminal to the small exciter wire when you did this, or did you try starting with the ignition still?