syn oil

[tdijerry]

since we dont know for sure about mobil 1 any more and i have been useing it over twenty years / my cars 2000 tdi beetle and 2003 2.0 gas / i have been useing mobil 1 0w40 because it meets the spect for both cars / vw 505/ 502 / so now what ? maybe shell 5w40 sym or some other oil ?

 

[Drivbiwire]

M1 0w40 is a great oil for all the cars prior to 2004. It meets VW 505.00 as well as the long drain requirements for MB, BMW. Also it is a higher HT/HS oil.

Nothing to worry about, if anything its a better oil than the Rotella 5w40.

DB

 

[tdijerry]

oil

M1 0w40 is a great oil for all the cars prior to 2004. It meets VW 505.00 as well as the long drain requirements for MB, BMW. Also it is a higher HT/HS oil.

Nothing to worry about, if anything its a better oil than the Rotella 5w40.

DB

i just like the idea of 100 % pao.

 

[TornadoRed]

i just like the idea of 100 % pao.

Shell RotellaT 5w40 is not a PAO-based motor oil.

As far as we know, Mobil 1 products -- with the possible exception of the Extended Performance oils -- still have the PAO basestock. If it should turn out that they do not, then I expect you would see a great deal of negative publicity for Exxon-Mobil... similar to the discovery that McDonalds's Big Macs were now made mostly from horse meat.

 

[Powder Hound]

... similar to the discovery that McDonalds's Big Macs were now made mostly from horse meat.

I hope everyone realizes this means that McDonald's burgers are not made from horse meat. If they were, I might consider buying from Mickey-D's again. But then, according to the FTC, they couldn't call 'em hamburgers.

Of course, according to the FTC (having lost vs. Castrol) you can call a processed dino oil (the group III stuff) synthetic. And if you process dino oil even more, you get PAOs (group IV). Hmm, still dino oil at heart, eh?

I'll stick to polyol esters (group V) which really are synthetic, through and through. Redline is my preferred brand, although there are a couple of other makers doing it. With esters you get much much better film strength and fabulous everything else. And with the prices being charged for PAOs and other "synthetics", I think I'm getting more for my money, even if it is more for the oil.

 

[AndyH]

It's not all about base oil

Of course, according to the FTC (having lost vs. Castrol) you can call a processed dino oil (the group III stuff) synthetic. And if you process dino oil even more, you get PAOs (group IV). Hmm, still dino oil at heart, eh?

I'll stick to polyol esters (group V) which really are synthetic, through and through. Redline is my preferred brand, although there are a couple of other makers doing it. With esters you get much much better film strength and fabulous everything else. And with the prices being charged for PAOs and other "synthetics", I think I'm getting more for my money, even if it is more for the oil.

PAO is a hydrocarbon, but is not derived from crude as is Group III. It's built up chemically from ethylene. Yes, the ethylene can be derived from natural gas. But it can also be derived from ripening fruit and vegetables.

Polyolesters are fabulous for extremely high temperature use - which is why they're used in jet engines. But they have to be worked on a lot to keep seals in check as polyolesters cause a LOT of swell.

The world leader in extended-drain lubricants dropped polyolesters as a primary base oil more than 16 years ago in favor of a primarily PAO with some ester base. They did that because it worked better for the intended task - protecting vehicle engines, transmissions, and differentials.

The two main companies still using esters for engines are Redline and Motul. Neither focus on extended drain intervals, so that's not a point of comparison. But Motul's ester-based motorcycle oils are soundly beaten by some synthetic blends and Group III in standardized testing. Esters by themselves have fantastic high-temperature performance but we don't drive base oil.

Royal Purple is Group III, Maxima is a blend, Valvoline 4-stroke is petroleum.

 

[TwoSlick]

The Castrol syntec, 0w-30 European Formula is a commonly available, PAO based synthetic that meets both the VW 502.00 and VW 505.00 specifications. In terms of high temp, high shear viscosity it's about as thick as the Mobil 1, 0w-40.

Autozone and Advance Auto both carry this castrol product for < $6.50/qt....

TS

 

[Powder Hound]

Yes, but is it not true that there are differing types of synthetics? It would be nice to know exactly what is what in oils, but then issues would be very quickly crowded with even more varying claims. In addition, reformulations due to market conditions (e.g. greed, "how much can we get away with?") can force specs into obsolecense faster than product can travel from warehouse pallets to store shelves.

I thought the tests on motorcycle oils was interesting. A difficult problem in motorcycles to me is that most of them have wet clutches, and those wear particles could really screw up an oil's protective ability. This is a problem noted in the article, and one I had thought about previously.

It should also be noted that it may be impossible to test every single oil available in a single test.

 

[tdijerry]

vw 505.0 / 505.01 oil

The Castrol syntec, 0w-30 European Formula is a commonly available, PAO based synthetic that meets both the VW 502.00 and VW 505.00 specifications. In terms of high temp, high shear viscosity it's about as thick as the Mobil 1, 0w-40.

Autozone and Advance Auto both carry this castrol product for < $6.50/qt....

TS

some of the newer oil are 5w30 instead of 5w40. vw recomends 5w40 oil for the tdi so how is the engine going to hold up withe the lighter oil ? if vw wants a 5w40 oil in the tdi then why are the oil companys making a 0w30/ 5w40 ?

 

[wjdell]

Let me guess the longer interval oils end up thicker at 15k. Ther are no 0W 505.01 oils there several 5W30 505.01. Maybe that is why some claim they protect better after they are used for so many miles. They use the soot as a additive.

 

[TwoSlick]

Jerry,

I get excellent results with the Amsoil 0w-30 in my 1.8L, 225 Hp Audi TT roadster and my climate down here in Alabama is hotter than where you are.

One of the main reasons why VW/Audi recommends SAE 0w-40/5w-40 is that many of the 0w-40's and Group III based, 5w-40's popular in Europe will shear significantly in service. By contrast, the top tier xw-30's like the Amsoil Series 2000/3000 and the GC/0w-30 are extremely shear stable.

I have used all these Amsoil products in my TT:

0w-30/10w-30/0w-40/5w-40/10w-40

No difference in wear rates based on spectrographic analsis, or oil consumption amoung all these grades - but performance & fuel efficiency are better with the 0w-30 and 10w-30 oils. Once I'm done testing a few more Amsoil formulations (10k OCI's) I'll probably settle on the 0w-30 or Series 3000, 5w-30. I see no need for anything thicker than that.

TS

 

[TwoSlick]

Typical results using a 30wt synthetic oil in the 1.8L, VW/Audi turbo engine....

Engine, 1.8L, 225 Hp Audi TT roadster
OEM air/oil filters
Miles on engine, 30,500
Miles on oil, 9500 miles
Time in crankcase, approx 8 months
Oil Used, Amsoil 10w-30 ("ATM")

Physical/Chemical Properties:

Vis @ 100C, 11.35 Cst
TBN, 5.37

Wear Metals:

Fe, 9 ppm
Cr, 1 ppm
Pb, 2 ppm
Cu, 13 ppm
Sn, 0 ppm
Al, 2 ppm
Ni, 0 ppm

Silicon, 9 ppm (note: oil has approx 4 ppm of polymeric silicone as an anti-foam additive)

Oil Additives:

Mg, 701 ppm
Ca, 2204 ppm

Boron, 25 ppm
P, 908 ppm
Zn, 1220 ppm

No worries with a shear stable, xw-30 synthetic in this application....

TS

 

[Diesel Addict]

Polyolesters are fabulous for extremely high temperature use - which is why they're used in jet engines. But they have to be worked on a lot to keep seals in check as polyolesters cause a LOT of swell.

The world leader in extended-drain lubricants dropped polyolesters as a primary base oil more than 16 years ago in favor of a primarily PAO with some ester base. They did that because it worked better for the intended task - protecting vehicle engines, transmissions, and differentials.

The two main companies still using esters for engines are Redline and Motul. Neither focus on extended drain intervals, so that's not a point of comparison. But Motul's ester-based motorcycle oils are soundly beaten by some synthetic blends and Group III in standardized testing. Esters by themselves have fantastic high-temperature performance but we don't drive base oil.

It's worth to mention that PAO's shrink seals so it's best to use a PAO/ester mix and get the best of both worlds. Also esters are not as good solvents as PAO's are when it comes to oil additives, so there's another reason to use a mix of the two. I wonder if Motul uses polyolesters or some other esters. If esters are extremely stable at high temperatures, it wouldn't make sense if they were very susceptible to oxidation. As far as extended drains are concerned, it depends on what you call extended. According to Red Line their oils can go 25,000 miles, but they generally recommend 12-18K mile intervals for gassers, and up to 10K for diesels unless it's their diesel-only oil which is fine for going over 10K miles.

 

[AndyH]

It's worth to mention that PAO's shrink seals so it's best to use a PAO/ester mix and get the best of both worlds. Also esters are not as good solvents as PAO's are when it comes to oil additives, so there's another reason to use a mix of the two. I wonder if Motul uses polyolesters or some other esters.

This is my understanding as well. I believe the Motul products that are ester based use polyolester..but I don't recall now where I read that...

If esters are extremely stable at high temperatures, it wouldn't make sense if they were very susceptible to oxidation.

That's the point of the image. We don't drive base oil, so I don't think it makes much sense to guess how well a product will work when there are tests for all occasions. Group I or II petroleum doesn't resist oxidation very well, so they dump in antioxidants...which work well until they die...then viscosity goes vertical.

As far as extended drains are concerned, it depends on what you call extended. According to Red Line their oils can go 25,000 miles, but they generally recommend 12-18K mile intervals for gassers, and up to 10K for diesels unless it's their diesel-only oil which is fine for going over 10K miles.

Yup. Same type of recommendation from other companies. M1 EP is 15K 'normal' service. 505.01 is 10K normal/severe. Some of AMSOIL's products are 7500 miles severe, some are 25K normal/15K severe, another is 35k normal/17500 severe. The difference between these and recommendations from other companies is that these are guaranteed intervals. Other companies will say (RP) 'up to 14,000 miles with a filter change 1/2 way thru, or RL's up to 25k normal/12-18K severe, but these aren't guaranteed.

 

[Diesel Addict]

How do these oil companies guarantee the drain intervals? Do they replace your engine free of charge if the oil fails within that drain interval?

I don't know if people know this, but even Red Line oils have PAO's in them for additive solubility reasons. I was told this by Dave at Red Line. But I'm pretty sure the amount of esters is higher in their oils than other synthetics. My wife's Honda developed an oil leak on a 2-year diet of Mobil synthetic oil so I switched her over to Red Line in the hope that the esters would swell the seals back up and reduce the leak. After about a month of Red Line usage it seems to be happening and the leak is almost gone.

 

[AndyH]

How do these oil companies guarantee the drain intervals? Do they replace your engine free of charge if the oil fails within that drain interval?

In a way, the VW 10,000 mile severe service oil and filter change interval is a guaranteed interval and is covered by warranty. So with regard to guaranteed intervals, I think Europe's OEM specs and change intervals are one example. 506.01 and 507.00 has a 1 year/10,000 mile severe, and up to 2 years or 31,000 miles for normal to light service if using a monitor.

The API system also gives a minimum standard of 3 months or 3000 miles for oil and filter for severe service (6 months to 1 year, 7500 miles or possibly up to 12,000 with a GM oil life monitor for normal to light service). So that's somewhat of a guarantee as well.

This Lubes-n-Greases article gives an independent industry overview of oil change interval recommendations in the US.

For guaranteed intervals for the US market, I'll start with AMSOIL. Here's a comment about their conservative viewpoint: The oil filters they guarantee for 1 year or 25,000 miles are a small car adaptation of the Donaldson Endurance filters - which are guaranteed by Donaldson for up to 60,000 miles in medium to heavy duty service. I've seen oil analysis results for their 6 month/7500 mile XL oil that was in service for 28,000 miles with no filter changes and it was still suitable for continued use. The company overbuilds their products and gives them a comfortably conservative guaranteed life. They print the drain interval on the bottle, the datasheet, and in their application/change interval guide. The written warranty does cover repair or replacement if the device is damaged by either the oil or the service interval.

The Mobil 1 EP line of products are guaranteed for 15000 miles of normal service, as long as the vehicle isn't under warranty. They recommend OEM intervals when under warranty and for severe service. From their FAQ:

Upon what driving conditions are these performance claims based? Normal or severe driving conditions?

These claims relate to all typical consumer driving conditions, excluding those mentioned below. In other words, if you drive under normal conditions and use Mobil 1 Extended Performance in your vehicle, the oil is guaranteed to protect your engine for 15,000 miles. We also recommend that drivers consult their owner’s manual while their vehicle is under warranty, and follow the guidelines set forth there. Additionally, we recommend that if consumers drive routinely in severe conditions that they follow the oil change interval recommended in their owner's manual for severe conditions. We define "severe conditions" as:


racing or commercial applications;
frequent towing or hauling;
extremely dusty or dirty conditions;
or excessive idling.

 

[wny_pat]

Do they replace your engine free of charge if the oil fails within that drain interval?

My son says the body his Ford F150HD will fall apart before that happens.

 

[Diesel Addict]

We define "severe conditions" as:
racing or commercial applications;
frequent towing or hauling;
extremely dusty or dirty conditions;
or excessive idling.

This kind of flies in the face of the notion that some members here have embraced that oils in commercial applications have an easier life than those in light-duty applications such as our TDI's, doesn't it?

 

[AndyH]

This kind of flies in the face of the notion that some members here have embraced that oils in commercial applications have an easier life than those in light-duty applications such as our TDI's, doesn't it?

It depends on what type of vehicle is doing the commercial service. Stop and go driving is going to affect a gas-engined taxi with 5 quarts of oil differently than a Cat C15 with 11 gallons.

This is a separate comparision than the old 'light duty VS. heavy duty diesel' issue as well.

The US oil and filter industry has listed 'severe service' factors for many years. Keep in mind that this is from the viewpoint of the typical US 'Big 3' gasoline engined car. And is based on using API spec oil. Severe service as defined by the Filter Manufacturers Council:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Trips of less than four miles (6 km) is the key factor in keeping most motorists in the average or "severe" category. In most owner's manuals the following are considered "severe" or average conditions:[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Frequent idling for long periods of time, such as stop-and-go driving in heavy traffic. Many vehicles are subjected to this condition twice a day in commuting to major cities.[/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sustained highway driving in hot weather, such as vacation travel. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Towing a boat or trailer, carrying heavy objects on a rooftop rack. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Driving in dusty conditions, such as over dirty or gravel roads, or where volcanic ash is blowing around. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Prolonged operation at sub-zero temperatures. [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Driving on steep hills or mountains on a regular basis. [/FONT]

Owner/operators that I work with have different drain intervals depending on service. The long-haul 180,000 - 200,000 miles per year guys with generally medium weight loads are running 100,000-120,000 mile OCIs. The guys running heavy around town (construction trucks hauling rock and semis hauling grain at harvest time) generally run closer to 50,000 mile intervals.

AMSOIL's light diesel (pickup/SUV) standard drain recommendations are 1 year or 25,000 miles for normal service, and 1 year or 15,000 miles for severe. They have slightly different definitions of normal and severe than the filter council and API.

Diesel Severe: Extensive idling, daily short trips less than 10miles, frequent towing, plowing, hauling or dusty-condition driving.
Gas Severe: The above plus: Turbo/supercharged engines, commercial/fleet, first and subsequent use of AMSOIL in vehicle with more than 100,000 miles.

In general, longer trips in moderate weather with an 11 gallon oil supply is good, while an overloaded 1.8T Passat with the 3.2 quart sump running petroleum oil for short trips in Srn Arizona isn't so good...

 

[Diesel Addict]

I know what you're saying. All this makes me think that mileage shouldn't even be considered when determining OCI's since driving styles vary so much. Engine revolution count would be a much more accurate way of determining remaining oil life. I believe that and maybe a few other variables like temperature is what the oil monitors use to determine OCI's.

 

[TwoSlick]

Diesel Addict,

I recommend using my Oil Change Interval Formula (OCIF) to determine a conservative service interval for particular driving conditions

OCI = (C*)(mpg)(sump-qts)(cubic inches/Hp#)

C* is an empirically derived constant I developed by taking 12 years of oil analysis data and backfitting it. I'd generally use the following C* numbers:

A C* of 50 for a standard, API/SM rated, petroleum oil
A C* of 80 for a Group III based synthetic like Castrol Syntec, Mobil 1, Rotella T, etc
A C* of 125 for a high TBN, PAO/Ester, extended drain synthetic like Amsoil, Delvac 1, Redline,etc

#- For turbo-diesels substitute the torque (in ft-lbs) and in place of Hp, since this is a better indication of engine output.

Using this formula will give you a good starting point in terms of service intervals....

TS