LavatoryLinksman
Active member
A local station down the street still sells it. In some cases can it be better to use the 500ppm fuel vs the 15ppm?
Low Sulfur 500ppm
- Thread starter LavatoryLinksman
- Start date
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
Not in your car...
Joe_Meehan
Top Post Dawg
Have you asked if it is 500 ppm? Maybe they are just slow changing the signing. I would not be surprised if you find out that the guy or gal behind the counter has no idea that 500 ppm is.
Jakobicev
Veteran Member
I can't see the benefits, maybe it cost's less than the ULSD but still the same here a few kkm away,no thanks
LavatoryLinksman
Active member
I've been told there's better 'lubricity'. the same concept, akin to blended bio-fuel.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
The old "low sulfur" diesel is not for sale ANYWHERE any more - not if you are talking about fuel meant for on-highway use. All on-highway diesel fuel shipped from the refiners has been ULSD for quite some time now. The sign is wrong.
dieselpower2010
Well-known member
That is wrong we have 4 stations in Hampton roads, Virginia that sells it. And i have gotten confirmation of that cause they have shown me the sale slips from the tanker trucks that delivered it. IN fact they are all BP stations. So it is still around.
Jakobicev
Veteran Member
What do you consider as a ULSD,what's the ppm value?
Thanks
Thanks
frugality
Top Post Dawg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULSDWhat do you consider as a ULSD,what's the ppm value?
Thanks
500ppm is the new off-road limit (it used to be 5000ppm). If there is any 500ppm fuel still being sold for on-road use, its days are numbered.
dieselpower2010
Well-known member
I don't deny that at all. The only reason i know this is cause we filled our military vehicles up there and then i went back to ask them cause i noticed it was labeled as 500ppm and they showed me the delivery slip. I wouldn't use it.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
... WHEN did you see this??
ULSD in the USA had a phase-in schedule. The final phase-out deadline of the old "low sulfur diesel" has passed. I've forgotten the exact date, but it was some time in mid 2010.
If they are still receiving LSD, and it is not actually ULSD that has been mis-labeled, they are breaking the law.
Jakobicev
Veteran Member
Thanks,that's what i thought and wanted to know for sure.We had some problems here so the VW said to my government...if you don't improve your regulations about the fuel we are gonna stop seling the new generation of TDI-s to you,so now (past few years) we have some quality fuel
I live in a small country but give me 5 min in the rush hour and I'l count more TDI.-s than the walkers on the street
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
It may be around but if those stations are sellling LSD for on road, highway use after 12/1/2010, then they are in violation of Federal regulations.
Please report them to your state's department of environmental protection, deparment of motor vehicles and whatever deparment audits / checks fuel standards.
dieselpower2010
Well-known member
That maybe and frankly i dont care what Bp does cause i refuse to fill up with them i will only fill up with shell. But anyway to answer you question it was about 3 months ago or so that i asked the question so maybe they have change but i wont go back to check.
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
Joe_Meehan
Top Post Dawg
You are aware that the fuel is likely to be the same under both names.
PaulGiz
Veteran Member
As a lifelong printer, I am personally offended that people can't be bothered to read their owner's manual.
The car in your sig will not only NOT gain any advantages from LSD, it has systems and components (some of which are quite expensive to replace) which will be damaged over time by the use of LSD.
Rather than detailing it here, may I suggest you read your manual.
Read all manuals. Read catalogs, magazines, newsletters, periodicals, packaging, instructions, solicitations and spec sheets.
Then recycle.
I need to keep working for about 10 more years, and it won't be easy.
P.
The car in your sig will not only NOT gain any advantages from LSD, it has systems and components (some of which are quite expensive to replace) which will be damaged over time by the use of LSD.
Rather than detailing it here, may I suggest you read your manual.
Read all manuals. Read catalogs, magazines, newsletters, periodicals, packaging, instructions, solicitations and spec sheets.
Then recycle.
I need to keep working for about 10 more years, and it won't be easy.
P.
dieselpower2010
Well-known member
That maybe but all i know is i had clogged fuel filter with a fill up at a bp. I don't know if there tanks were dirty or if it was a chance of bad delivery but i will not fuel at a bp ever again. I switch to shell at 6000 miles and have been using them since and had no bad fuel since.
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
No problem around here Paul:
Women's Day
House Beautiful
Country Living
Cosmopolitan
Good Housekeeping
Ladies Home Journal
Money
Smart Money
Kipplinger
Houston Chronicle
Barrons
I'm sure there are more.....
LavatoryLinksman
Active member
interesting comments but what about lubricity. I've been told that straight up - the 500ppm is better for one's engine.
PaulGiz
Veteran Member
When I was 7, I was told that if you burp and hiccup at the same time You Will Die!!! Doesn't make it true.
The lubricity of LSD is good, but you have very complex intake and emissions systems which do not want to see LSD. The DPF will be damaged -- replacement $2000+. Your car will not run without one due to the ECU programming. NOS Cat will be damaged. Intake systems will be clogged.
On your dashboard there is a sign that says "ULSD Fuel Only". On your filler cap is a sign that says "ULSD Fuel Only". Under the hood there is an emissions sticker that says "ULSD Fuel Only". In your owner's manual and warranty book are warnings to use "ULSD Fuel Only".
On the other hand, you were told that LSD has better lubricity (true) so you jumped to the conclusion that you should use it in your car.
This is why I avoid used cars. At least with a new car I get the choice of whether to screw it up or not myself.
P.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
OK now we need to back up a step.
When the diesel fuel that is now known as "low sulfur diesel" was introduced (1970's?) the refineries responded by using a certain refining process that removed the sulfur compounds. It also turned out that the same refining process also removed certain other compounds associated with lubricity of the fuel. The switch to LSD was followed by a rash of fuel injection system problems and it led to a myth that "sulfur was good" and "low sulfur was bad". Of course, once the problem became apparent, the process was changed at the refineries, and the rash of fuel injection problems went away. But the myth that "sulfur" = "lubrication" persisted.
Obviously with the switch to ULSD, the lubricity issue was known from the last go-around and the refineries ensured that the lubricity met the standards.
Now, there IS an issue with fuel lubricity ... US specifications allow diesel fuel with lower lubricity than Bosch wants for the injection system in these cars ... but that's got nothing to do with whether it us ULSD or not.
You MUST use ULSD in that car to avoid severe and expensive damage to the emission control equipment ... as required by your owner's manual. And, as others have noted, as of 1 December 2010, you don't have a choice in the matter. Any fuel stations that still have the old "LSD" stickers are wrong - that's not what they're selling (otherwise, they're violating the law).
If you are concerned about lubricity - and you should be, in my opinion - the correct course of action is to fill the car with ULSD and use a fuel lubricity additive that specifically states that it is compatible with 2007 and newer diesel engines.
LavatoryLinksman
Active member
wow paul, thanks for your so enlightened input. what about the tdi's that were running around the world before ULSD - the one's that have run through hundreds of gallons of LSD?
ULSD is recommended for cars built after 2007 (per the sticker at the pump). are you telling me that every jetta that has ever used LSD (anything 2007 and earlier) is damaged and worthless...
in the end these are diesel engines and need something in the tank that can one 1. ignite under compression while 2. being able to 'fit' through the injector and common rail system.
ULSD is recommended for cars built after 2007 (per the sticker at the pump). are you telling me that every jetta that has ever used LSD (anything 2007 and earlier) is damaged and worthless...
in the end these are diesel engines and need something in the tank that can one 1. ignite under compression while 2. being able to 'fit' through the injector and common rail system.
myths or misinformation?
It was 1993 when low sulfur diesel came out and the problems were not lubricity related. The hydrotreating lowered the aromatics content of the fuel. The lower aromatics cuase rubber seals & gaskets to shrink and leak. The process was not changed at the refineries, instead the engine manfacturers switched to gasket materials that were resistent to changes in aromatic content.
PaulGiz
Veteran Member
Please read all the responses. Your 2010 TDI has completely different emission equipment which cannot be removed. It is this stuff that will be damaged. Stuff that was not present on pre-2009 cars.
If you are worried about lubricity (I agree with you there btw) there are plenty of ULSD compatible additives which can be useful.
P
LavatoryLinksman
Active member
after all this I'm glad that I haven't used any 500ppm fuel, that is if it's still actually out there.
anyhow, I'll do a few searches but any rec's from the pro's on the best fuel additives?
merry christmas!!
anyhow, I'll do a few searches but any rec's from the pro's on the best fuel additives?
merry christmas!!
PaulGiz
Veteran Member
B2 or B5 (2% or 5% biodiesel) if available is the best choice.
Other additives are Stanadyne (at your VW dealer as well as other retailers), Power Service (available everywhere), FPPF (mail order and some truck stops) and OptiLube (mail order).
I use OptiLube. Last winter I was using the XPD. When the weather got warmer I switched to Summer Blend just because it is cheap to use (2oz per 10-12 gallon fillup). Summer Blend is basically a lubricity only additive. When the weather got cold I bought another gallon of XPD because it has cetane boosters and anti-gel components as well. OptiLube claims it cleans injectors, who knows?
By the second tank with the XPD it is my impression (no scientific tests) that the car starts easier and runs and idles smoother. Mileage has gone up by about 2 mpg but the cost of the XPD (more than) offsets any savings. It is nice to know your car is running as efficiently as possible, can't hurt. I'll probably stick with the XPD unless money gets tight.
Read this, it has info and although not gospel it can't hurt to know this stuff.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728
Good luck with the car, I love mine.
P.
Other additives are Stanadyne (at your VW dealer as well as other retailers), Power Service (available everywhere), FPPF (mail order and some truck stops) and OptiLube (mail order).
I use OptiLube. Last winter I was using the XPD. When the weather got warmer I switched to Summer Blend just because it is cheap to use (2oz per 10-12 gallon fillup). Summer Blend is basically a lubricity only additive. When the weather got cold I bought another gallon of XPD because it has cetane boosters and anti-gel components as well. OptiLube claims it cleans injectors, who knows?
By the second tank with the XPD it is my impression (no scientific tests) that the car starts easier and runs and idles smoother. Mileage has gone up by about 2 mpg but the cost of the XPD (more than) offsets any savings. It is nice to know your car is running as efficiently as possible, can't hurt. I'll probably stick with the XPD unless money gets tight.
Read this, it has info and although not gospel it can't hurt to know this stuff.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728
Good luck with the car, I love mine.
P.
2jettasinthedrive
Veteran Member
Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel is 15 PPM with Lubricity added for Branded fuel and not for Unbranded.
Low sulphur is 500 ppm and dyed red.
High sulphur is 3400 ppm and dyed red.
If the station has LOW sulphur, it should be red.
Low sulphur is 500 ppm and dyed red.
High sulphur is 3400 ppm and dyed red.
If the station has LOW sulphur, it should be red.
ALL ULSD has lubricity additive - nothing to do with brands. Without additive, it can't meet the legal specifications of most states.