IP top and bottom seal how-to (?)

[fruitcakesa]

First a big thanks to everyone for the great content. This is my first post, but not my first time following the advise on this forum.
(The car: 2002 VW TDI Beetle, Automatic, w/ 245k miles. Me: minimally proficient with a wrench, but learning.)
I have performed the seal change described in this thread, and am now being told I need a new IP. Here's the back story: I observed the IP leaking at one of the two top seals, and I changed the seals as described in the thread. I don't have a vag-com, so I adjusted the idle based on sound and prior alignment. The car ran fine for a week, and then I noticed that the serpentine belt was missing about 20%. I put the car into my (usually trusty) vw mechanic for a timing belt change (it was time.)
(First sign of issues...) When I picked up the car, it cranked odd. I thought it wasn't going to crank, but then it did and ran fine. This odd, delayed start persisted for two weeks until one day
(second sign...) it simply stopped running while I was going down the road. The engine just stopped, and would not start again. I towed it back to my mechanic, and they were able to restart it after cracking the injectors and bleeding out some air. They also pointed out that the IP was still leaking and suggested that the leak was the source of air (and why the car stopped.)
Not wanting to pay someone who knows what they're doing to fix it, I decided to change the head seal on the IP by following the Diesel Geek you tube videos. I had observed the leak from that joint, and was sure that was needed regardless of it being the source of air in the injector lines. The seal change went as planned, and I 'think' I did it without any harm to the IP. The only thing odd I ran into was the (these are not the right names) collar with the dimple for the throttle rod that comes from the top assembly... that collar was stuck into the plate on the left, on the inside of the IP. I had to put a little force onto it to slide it back to the right where it would accept the throttle rod. When I did, it seems to slide and spin completely freely. I closed everything back up, used my new mityvac to prime the pump, bled the injectors, and cranked.
(third sign...) I was never able to get a good idle. I bumped it left, right, a tiny bit and too much. I had run overs (one persisted even after I pulled the key out!) For the life of me, I could not get a steady idle. Again, I do not have a vag-com, so I ended up leaving it in a very rough idle state with the intent of taking it to the mechanic to get the timing adjusted. The mechanic didn't have time for 4 days, and I drove it the first 3. It ran fine when given gas, just idled very rough.
(forth sign...) On day 3 it died again, just like before, when we blamed air in the lines. However, now all of the seals are good and there is no visible leak. I bled the injectors and it started (after about 4 rounds of bleeding.) I left it running while I stepped inside to wash my hands, and when I came back out it was dead again. Bleeding didn't seem to work, so I ended up having it towed again to the mechanic.
Finally... The mechanic is telling me it needs a new IP. Here's the diagnosis:
NO START--BLED FUEL SYSTEM-AIR IN SYSTEM FROM WHEN CUSTOMER REBUILT PUMP.
--GOT VEHICLE RUNNING - RUNNING ROUGH. CHECKED GLOW PLUGS AND OTHER SYSTEMS.
CYL#2 GLOW PLUG IS FAULTY BUT NOT CAUSING VEHICLE TO RUN ROUGH.
--CHECKED INJECTION PUMP TIMING - RUNNING RICH AND SMOKING BAD. INJECTION
TIMING IS ALL OVER. RETARTED-ADVANCE-AND DEAD ON 35-60----INJECTION PUMP FAULTY.
Their price aside ($2200), does this sound like a bad Injection Pump issue? I can't help but wonder if the timing was off from when they did the timing belt. Particularly since the leaking IP was not an issue for months prior to getting the timing belt changed (it had been leaking awhile.) Or, did I just demonstrate that sometimes it's better to pay someone with experience to do the job right?
Thanks in advance for any and all advice!!
PS: Assuming I need to replace it, I'm planning to go with a rebuilt IP from hans autoparts. $730-$300 core = $430 net cost. Much less than the $1460 the mechanic quoted (oem). With nearly 250k miles on the car, I'm not about to drop 2k on oem.

Isn't Hans Autoparts one of Prothe's bogus VW parts sites?
Be careful here as Prothe is well known for his junk parts.

 

[allenru]

Yes, it is "prothe" (e-bay username). I have no experience with them, but was pleased to discover they're office is about 5 miles from my house. I'm not sure how realistic it is, but I assumed if anything was not as expected, I'd camp out in their lobby until it was resolved.

Does anyone know where to get a cost effective IP replacement?

 

[whitedog]

Save yourself the troubles and save your car from the garbage that you will get from P Rothe. Seriously.

Get in touch with one of the vendors on this site if you need a pump, but first find someone else to look at your car. You have stated that you don't quite trust that mechanic so find someone else from this website to help you. Even many of the non-gurus will be able to help you more than someone that is a VW gasser mechanic so thinks he can work on TDIs.

 

[allenru]

Holly crap! Thanks fruitcakesa. I just read the prothe thread (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=207007) and needless to say, I will not be purchasing the IP from them. Wow, that is a horrible reputation.

I did see a good reference to http://www.dfispdx.com/ and http://www.rockauto.com/

Any others I should check out?

 

[whitedog]

DFIS is one of only a couple of Bosch rebuild shops in the country. It's like getting a new pump when you get one from them. You can call and talk Mark or Kyle there and they will be able to make sure that you are on the way to TDI success.

 

[larrydc]

Question

I am trying to draw fuel through the injection pump, in order to purge the air, through the return with a mighty vac. I never had this trouble before, but there appears to be a small vacuum leak in the pump. I tried disconnecting the input and blocking the hole with the same result. Where in the pump might the leak be. Is it possible those two seals may be causing that leak? If not, what? I'm not able to get enough vacuum to make the meter go much over 5. It drops rather quickly after stopping to pump.

It's a 96 Passat TDI with 230,000 miles.

 

[Biopig]

I am trying to draw fuel through the injection pump, in order to purge the air, through the return with a mighty vac. I never had this trouble before, but there appears to be a small vacuum leak in the pump. I tried disconnecting the input and blocking the hole with the same result. Where in the pump might the leak be. Is it possible those two seals may be causing that leak? If not, what? I'm not able to get enough vacuum to make the meter go much over 5. It drops rather quickly after stopping to pump.

It's a 96 Passat TDI with 230,000 miles.

I just replaced both seals on my pump. I was having similar issue to yours with air getting into the system and causing all kinds of problems. Seals fixed my air problem and my car runs so much better now. It was one of the easier repairs I've performed. Jb weld didnt hold, but luckily I scribed several lines with a sharp knife.

 

[allenru]

For future reference... If you need the Fuel Injection Pump rebuilt, I had an excellent experience with http://www.dfispdx.com/

They were very clear up front about pricing, easy to work with, and the IP was like new and runs like a new car. I worked with Mark at DFIS.

 

[climbtheplanet]

For future reference... If you need the Fuel Injection Pump rebuilt, I had an excellent experience with http://www.dfispdx.com/

They were very clear up front about pricing, easy to work with, and the IP was like new and runs like a new car. I worked with Mark at DFIS.

How much did the rebuild run you? I'm curious how a rebuild compares to a new unit.

 

[flash9]

Torque Specs for the Injector Pump Assembly Bolts

Does anyone have torque values for this task? I just stripped one of the torx bolts (probably the ip) at 15 ft/lbs.

I believe it's only to be torqued to about 8lb ft.

Mr. Erickson (a.k.a. Quantum Guy):
.... We found another TDI club thread that quoted 10-12 ft-lbs. I don't know if that's official or not. That's what we used. No more leaky IP!

Does anyone have the actual Torque Specs for the Injector Pump Assembly Bolts?

If not, I guess we will start with 8ft-lbs, and go from there if we still have any leakage with the new gaskets.

 

[rdkern]

I'm pretty sure it's 8. I broke a bolt at 15, and do believe that is what I was told, and used, in the second attempt.

 

[flash9]

I'm pretty sure it's 8. I broke a bolt at 15, and do believe that is what I was told, and used, in the second attempt.

Did this project on a 2001 TDI this weekend, and 8 ft-lb (or 96 in-lb) worked great. replaced both gaskets and everything is sealed and working great.

 

[cumminsfromthecold]

TDI Injection Quantity Adjuster, bolt torques

These torque values for the TDI's IQ adjuster remain hard to find. 8 ft lbs for the Torx/T10 and ??? for the triangle bolt? Anyone? I have looked and looked...

Edit: I torqued all to 96 in lbs / 8 ft lb and that felt just right, even on the triangle bolt.

 

[AndyBees]

I have no idea what the torque valve is for those bolts.

My experience/story:

I had to remove the IP pump head to scrape the big O-Ring off. So, when I put it all back together (re-used the same IQ seals), I just tightened the bolts by "feel" ........... no leaks 2.5 years later.

 

[Dieselgeek]

One chart I just googled says 7.1 pound feet. That is for grade 8.8, M6-1.0 screws. I don't get asked this question very often and I've never had any one ring me up or email me saying they stripped them out but you do need to be aware that you are screwing into aluminum.

Another chart shows 7.8Nm for dry threads or 10.4Nm for lubricated threads. This assumes Grade 8.8 screws, the more likely grade.

 

[gidgiddoni]

Can't seem to get primed

I've followed the procedure up to the priming of the pump, but I never seem to get fuel to come into the pump after almost an hour of pumping with my mighty VAC. I see vacuum produced and the needle slowly drops, but I never get fuel to come through. What could I be doing wrong?

 

[markward]

Hello, I have never used the vacuum method. I have a gravity feed rig I made from an old CIS fuel filter that I cut one end off of. Basically, I attach it to the inlet of the injection pump filled with fuel. With the injector lines cracked loose at the engine, I have someone crank the engine while I watch the fuel get drawn into the pump. Sometimes it takes a refill. Once I see the fuel at the lines, tighten down the injector lines and it should fire up if it ran before.

I also made a tool for when I travel. If you are familiar with outboards, I have a piece of clear line that I cut in half and installed the primer bulb from the outboard fuel line. It has banjo fittings on both ends. This is for if I need to replace a fuel filter on the road, or if somehow I run out of fuel. Good luck.

 

[dieseldrive]

Look here for a quality reseal service (check feedback)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251796411874?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

 

[RyanT]

I have an audi A4B5 with an AHU engine. I just replaced the top seal with the kit from dieselgeek but I can still see diesel coming from the top seam. The mating services seem clean and I tightened the bolts as much as I dare to.

I did notice the new seal is about 2mm taller than the one i pulled from the car. Can this be due to shrinkage or do I have the wrong kit?

Edit: Fixed, after I also replaced the bottom seal.

 

[Dieselgeek]

That's perfectly normal. The new seals will be bigger than the old ones. The old seals shrink up and eventually lose their seal against the aluminum housing. I have seen slightly warped top QA covers but it should still seal.

 

[RyanT]

That's perfectly normal. The new seals will be bigger than the old ones. The old seals shrink up and eventually lose their seal against the aluminum housing. I have seen slightly warped top QA covers but it should still seal.

Thanks Jim. The seal looks good so it's probably an issue with my cover. Maybe I warped it by over-tightening.

 

[RyanT]

Gave it another shot today and replaced the bottom seal. I couldn't find JB-weld at my hardware store so I used a razor blade to mark the position. Noticed it helps to use a camera/phone to see if it's aligned properly. Result: started right up and idles at a steady 800rpm. IP is bone-dry after driving for an hour. THANKS ALL!!!

 

[larry_wall]

Worked great for me.

I wrote to dieselgeek.com before working on my daughters car and Paula wrote me with all the links about this subject. One of the links was to this forum. Before coming here I had only seen the 7 videos so I am really glad I came here and saw the JB Weld method. That along with the videos made this a success. In parts and tools I spent around $250 and the dealer wanted $2250 plus tax to replace the pump. Once I got into the home stretch of getting the car back together I stopped watching the videos and so after priming pump I tried to start the car and it would not start. I then went back to the videos and saw where they loosen the 2 and 4 gas lines until fuel shot out, tightened those back down and then did the same for 1 and 3. Once I did this the car started perfectly. I am not so sure why that prevented it from running but I am sure glad it was in the video. I am really happy with this procedure. I put JB Weld in the two corners, but I also used the JB Weld to make straight line in between the corners.

Anyone doing this procedure should note that they need to do the JB Weld at least the day before because it takes 15-20 hours to cure. Do not wait until you are ready to start and then realize this.

 

[86aaz]

P1252 Code After Seal Replacement

Thank you for detailing this procedure! I was pretty intimidated to try this but the encouragement of this thread got me to try it. I also did the head seal. I didn't use JB weld and my marks were hard to read. But, my car started right up and drives pretty well without any adjustments. I can't find my VAG-COM cable at the moment, but I'll use it to dial in the injection quantity.

I do have one problem, though. About a minute after startup I the Check Engine light illuminates and the OBDII code is P1252. Does this just mean my injection quantity is off, or did I forget to plug something in? Has anybody else had this code come up after this procedure?

Thank you again!


UPDATE 1/23: The Check Engine light turned off after about 100 miles of driving. No more P1252 code. Maybe it was caused by air bubbles in the pump that threw off the timing? The car is running great now. I still haven't VAG-COM'd it to check the IQ value.

 

[raenglehart]

I ordered my kit fro DieselGeek about a month ago, then was laid up with a screwed up back for some time. I finally got around to replacing all 3 seals as many others here before me. I went to install the lower housing seal only to realize that the kit sent to me contained 2 upper seals and no lowers.....of course it is a Sunday morning when trying to do this so I was stuck with what I had. I went ahead and did the head o-ring and upper seal, re-using my lower seal since I had no choice. To no one's surprise, it leaked like a dang siv, so will have to contact DieselGeek in the AM and hope I can get another lower seal sent ASAP.

The car is my daily driver, and can't drive it like this now (leaks worse than before). One thing to note, when I initially had it started and looking at the VagCom IP readings to adjust as needed, I started getting a flashing Glow Plug light.

But since my leak was so bad, I figured to just leave it alone now since I have to pull the pump back apart for the lower seal when I get it.

Such is my luck

 

[runonbeer]

I've sealed 100+ pumps and I have never, not one single time, gotten a mis-packed kit.

I don't believe you did either. Please post pics to prove me wrong. The pic will need to include 3 copies of the upper seal next to each other.

 

[raenglehart]

I wish it weren't the case, but if it is to happen, then it'll happen to me.....I'm cursed with that sorta luck........lol. My Ross VagCom cable was no good when I got it a couple months back...after trying everything with their tech support, they sent a replacement cable and it worked fine. I returned the bad one (wouldn't communicate with any PC - tried 3 computers with same error on all). I can't take pics of the three side by side without taking my IP back apart, and digging thru my trash can for the old seal but I can assure you all three seals are identical. With the little pointy tab that sticks out on each, the upper and lower are completely different. I assure you I am not trying to create more work for myself now sitting with an Inoperable car and one seal short. I'm hoping DieselGeek will be able to send just that seal so as to not break up a new set. If I have to buy another kit then that's what I'll have to do in the end.
Look up "bad luck" in the dictionary and you'll see my picture....lol
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Injection_Pump_Seal_Kit_p/pmp-fullkit.htm

UPDATE:Best I could do is put the link from the dieselgeek website for the kit. My kit had 2 seals like the upper left of the pic (upper seal). As the pic shows, the tab on the lower is orientated in a completely different spot, I can only assume by design so those doing the job can't inadvertently put a seal in the wrong spot (smart engineer for once ).

Also, Jim from DieselGeek has already responded to my e-mail stating he'd have a lower seal sent out ASAP. I put no blame on him or the company as I'm sure they get these kits from a supplier. All I can do is state how well they did making sure I was set up for success in the end.

A big thanks to Jim for responding so quickly!

 

[raenglehart]

Okay, just to prove I'm not crazy, I had to create an photo account so I could upload pics of the seal kits. (Why can't I just pull pics from my computer like most other forums?) I'm not sure how long these pics will last as I don't usually use sites for uploading pics online. In any case, another HUGE thank you to Jim & team @ Diesel Geek for getting another kit to me within a couple days. Can't ask for better customer service. I promised him I'd update the thread and also send him pics. If I could pic a needle out of a haystack for a 1 in 1 million shot at picking a bad package I'd do it...like I said, I'm lucky that way....lol.
1st Kit with 2 upper seals

2nd Kit received today

Both Kits together

So, I went ahead with the replacement of the lower this evening (with only 1 good eye no less due to a surgery yesterday). All went well. With VagCom connected and car running to get to operating temp, I could not seem to get the IQ to set. Car idling @ 1150-1200 (high I know) and my IQ wasn't reading anything. Now, if I pushed the throttle it would read and jump up to 10 or so, but when back to idle, I get 0.0-1.4 (cycling). No matter how much I adjusted or which way I adjusted, the IQ didn't seem to change @ idle, however the RPM's would change with the slightest of "hammer bump." I'm going to go back to the 7 part video and read the thread again to make sure I didn't miss something.
-------------------------------------------
After watching the vid's again and reading over the thread, I took it for a test drive with VagCom connected so I could watch IQ in real time. When accelerating, IQ would go upwards of 30. As soon as I let of the throttle, it would go back to 0.0, then fluctuate from 0.0-1.4 and I notice my RPM's were slow to come down. Car seems to drive fine other than RPM's hanging a little between gears (didn't do that before I did the seal job).

If the nipple did not get seated back into the shaft hole, wouldn't it not adjust RPM's like that when bumping or not drive when I take it for a test drive?

 

[runonbeer]

You proved me wrong I guess.

You need to hammer that pump to the passenger side.

 

[runonbeer]

Yes if the control rod is not plugged into the collar it usually will not respond to throttle.