injection pump priming help-now a broken pump

[emp]

thanks a ton for the info guys. Big snow storm today so i had no time to work on it spent the day plowing. I'll set it up vertically and replace the head seal that way.

 

[fatmobile]

By bigger you mean 11mm right?
You can swap heads.
The measurements and shims size need to be right. What is it called? FK and JK?
Not that it's a bad idea just spendy (though cheaper than some options) and time consuming.
Probably easier to find a whole pump than a pump with a good head and
something wrong with the rest of the pump.

 

[Franko6]

Replacing the pump is not a bad idea, you just have to know how to set the stroke of the distributor shaft with it's shim. The difference in pump heads is the distributor shaft size and the cam plate, which can have taller lift. Over-stroke a distributor shaft, you'll seize it or break it.

One thing that is our standard for installing a larger pump head is to also install a fuel cooler. Every single engine, beginning with the 11mm ALH automatic in 1998, includes an in-line fuel cooler. All US version TDI's include a fuel cooler beginning 04. Heat that is not attended to will reduce volume of the fuel. If you expect to increase fuel volume, it has to be cooled appropriately.

 

[Franko6]

Do yourself a favor, Fatmobile. Don't risk a broken pump head. Take the pump out.

 

[AndyBees]

So, I suppose I was "lucky" using a paper clip and Vaseline as can be seen in the Link back in Post #22

 

[fatmobile]

I've been playing with VE pumps for awhile.
Just resealed one on another ALH today.
That's my third successful reseal on the vehicle.
Attention to detail.

Andybees that was a good writup on post #777.
I was surprised to see you ended up pulling the whole head.

 

[AndyBees]

I've been playing with VE pumps for awhile.
Just resealed one on another ALH today.
That's my third successful reseal on the vehicle.
Attention to detail.

Andybees that was a good writup on post #777.
I was surprised to see you ended up pulling the whole head.

I had to pull the head because the O-ring was stuck to it. In fact, if you noticed, I had to actually scrape it off the head and then I used a buffing wheel on my drill to remove the remaining remnants!

 

[Franko6]

Andy, I got nothing against the vaseline/ grease. Whatever makes the shim stay put. Working awkwardly inside the engine bay is not for me. Too much risk, not enough reward. Heck, I wire brush everything... down to the oil pan bolts.

Just like the guys who would beat me up over 45 ft lbs on a ALH cam sprocket bolt... 33 ft lbs 'By The Book' is good enough... But it only takes ONE time to live with the regret. I'll take the flak and depend on my own logic.

Btw: as long as I'm picking on the Bentley, we rewrote all the numbers for the Piston/ Cylinder bore clearances because they are all wrong (13a-16). How many of you ever saw a piston that was 79.47? That's what the Bentley book lists. Me, yeah I have seen a 79.47 piston...once. But if you figure that almost every ALH engine is 79.44mm and that means you are closing in on a +.0012" error, when the cylinder bore clearance should be a maximum of .0016"? " Do the math. Just because it is in black and white and 'According to Bentley' does not make it necessarily so.

 

[AndyBees]

Frank, back in 2013 (I believe that was the year), I was grasping at straws as to why my ALH engine would not start good (very long story short, bad grounding). So, I did the IP reseal on loads of advice, 99% from this forum. The thought was that the IP was losing prime. So, armed with Runobeer's video and some research, I delved into the IP re-seal and come out okay, luckily! It's pushed the ol' Vanagon north to Alaska on two trips pulling a small popup camper with no issues, ,,,, related to the IP.... LOL

As for the Cam bolt torque, I've been using your advice, but seems I stop around 41 lbs. I am sitting on a new set of .020 over new pistons. So, your findings relative to size reference in the Bentley is certainly important.

Back to the IP reseal, I like to share the link to the documentation of my experience due to all the pics and successful outcome. I've done several re-seals since with no issues and without removing the IP. I'm not sure why that first one had a stuck O-ring. But, the head had to come off to remove the rubber pieces, bit by bit.

Thanks for all of your advice.

 

[KLXD]

I've done a few reseals. Always on the bench. One of them had a lot of corrosion in the bore down to the o-ring. Not something I'd want to push my shiny new o-ring across, not to mention the dirt that's inevitably in the bore that doesn't come out and gets pushed back in. No way to treat one of the highest precision assemblies in the industry.

Like Frank says on the risk/reward.

 

[emp]

Thanks again guys for the help i got the reseal hopefully done and reassembled. Now a couple hopefully easy questions first off with a dry/empty pump is there a way to bench test it or maybe not test but rotate it to make sure all is assembled correctly before i put it back in? Next with the IQ i do have a vcds for when i finally get it started but initially do i go towards the drivers side slightly or towards the passengers side slightly i forget which way makes it easier to start (and smoke)

 

[AndyBees]

I'd dump in some diesel fuel before rotating a dry pump.

Set the IP Sprocket slots so that the three bolts are as close as possible to the center. That will put the timing in the Graph (ballpark) .. has never failed for me!

 

[KLXD]

Hopefully you got the QA as close to where it was as possible. Don't try to guess at where might be better than the original position..

 

[emp]

ok getting close just been busy with work. So now my question is this and I do understand get it running first but then should i do injection pump timing then iq or vise versa?

thanks

 

[Mongler98]

Tdc all parts and belt.
Start car
Vcds
Adjust timing
Vcds adjust QA
Unless it's running very poorly. You can check IQ in vcds before doing anything. Both tasks the engine needs to be at operating temp. That means you need it running and able to go around the block a few times, on in this weather, down the highway.
As long as both are close enough that it's not running poorly at idle, your fine to take It out. Your not going to damage anything.

 

[Franko6]

Emp,

I think there is a lot made of 'where it was', and I do scribe mark the IQ to injection pump bodies before the IQ screws are removed.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, priming the pump is required, or you will never get fuel to the injector lines. With all injection lines tight, use the fuel return line from the #4 injector to vacuum out the air from the tank to the pump. Clamp off the fuel return line from the fuel filter (the side with the thermostatic Tee) so you aren't pulling air from the top of the fuel tank.

But when it comes to making it start, I want that to happen and don't like to fool around. As I've said before, the IIQ mark might be right. But a pump that is underfueling is hard to start. So, moving the IQ body toward the left (away from the timing belt, it lowers IQ number... I have to put it this way as when I say 'toward the driver's side', the English take exception...), the car will likely sputter and run rough, but I've got the IQ screws just loose enough that a whack with a plastic mallet on the nut holding the fuel return hard line, will quickly correct the overfueling.

If at that point, if the pump was marked and you have no better method to set IQ, try aligning the scribe marks. See what happens. It might be just the right place.

 

[emp]

OK making progress but have a couple of hopefully simple questions.
1. since i have it apart should i swap the water pump or let it go until the next timing belt change?
2. is there any way to get the tensioner out without having to undo the motor mount?

as always thanks for the help guys

 

[Franko6]

1. I wouldn't change a water pump until the timing belt interval. If you know when it was done and the pump quality, then wait. However, if it's showing leaks, of course change it. The water pump should last 100k or 5 years if you get a good one

2. Yes, you can remove the tensioner without removing the engine mount in an ALH and the BEW, but it does take some modification. We have modified a lot of passenger side motor mounts to do exactly that... did one the other day to accommodate putting the head on without first installing the tensioner stud. That makes installing the cylinder head much easier and with less damage to the relatively fragile Cylinder Head's Gasket surface. We also remove the cam caps and cam for the same reason. The cylinder head falls straight down into place.

If you take a line between the end of the tensioner stud and the passenger engine mount on the inside, there are three webs that come together. I use a 3/4" ball carbide bit on a die grinder to relieve that point about 1/2"-5/8" deep. Then, using the same technique as we have performed for the BRM PD engine, which does not require any mount modification, the tensioner and stud can be removed as a unit by removing the tensioner stud nut, pull the tensioner all the way against the engine mount. Then, use a pair of Vice Grip Alligator jaw pliers and loosen the stud. Once loose, the stud can be twiddled out of the head and removed with the tensioner. There are times that is handy, like when the spring breaks on your belt tensioner, which many have seen happen (WARNING: if you have a tensioner spring blow up, and you did not lose timing, REPLACE the tensioner AND THE STUD!)

To make the job of grinding an access for the stud removal as clean as possible, we use cotton batting around the timing belt cover and drop cloths to cover the engine and mount, etc. A shop vacuum placed properly can suck out nearly all of the chips as they are made.

In many timing belt kits, there is a replacement 8mm x 1.25 staked nut that is meant to replace the tensioner stud nut and the roller between the tensioner and the crank sprocket. We prefer to use the original hardware, but we do use the staked nut to drive the tensioner stud into it's hole. I think that nut provides just enough force to seat the stud properly, then push down on the tensioner, back off the staked nut and use the original castle-head nuts.

 

[emp]

Thanks everyone for the help she is back on the road. Wow the injection quantity is super sensitive it was not set correct so it took a bit of messing with to get started but it got there eventually. Now the next set of questions mostly because i'm curious once the engine got up to temp i set the injection timing and that i have it about one block below the blue line (within spec) but then i started reading and it seems everyone has their own opinion on where it should be, is there any consensus on this or just keep it in between the red and green and get as close to blue(middle line) as possible? Next question is the injection quantity i got that right at 3 (wow you do not move that top much to adjust it) which seems like where most say it should be on a stock vehicle, but when reading some people say that the larger number increases the injection quantity(makes it richer) and some threads were saying that the larger number decreases injection quantity(leans the engine out) so now i'm just curious which one is it? Also after all of this should i be check anything else on the engine or not?

again thanks all

 

[KLXD]

Da computer ignores the IQ at idle and sets it at whatever is required for correct idle speed, normally around 5 if the pump is calibrated properly on the bench. You can read it with VCDS and hammer it to whatever you want, let's say 3.

When you accelerate the computer's programming takes over and starts using the IQ feedback. If it wants 6 it's going to move the QA to 6 so instead of moving it from 5 to 6 it moves it from 3 to 6 so mo fuel.

And vicery versary.

I wonder if you can read the boltage with VCDS while the motor's not running instead of using the by guess and by gosh method with scratch marks or blobs of epoxy.

 

[Franko6]

I'm not sure what that was about... The only reason to make a scratch on the body of the IQ and pump is to help relocate it close to it's initial position.

To answer Emp's question: The IQ setting shown at idle, with no a/c, lights, fan, etc, will show a number, anywhere from usually 2-8. The higher the number, the LESS the fuel.

The method I have used to maximize FE (fuel economy): Start with a flat, quiet road that you can drive 50. At 35mph and a relatively low IQ number (lets say 2...), go to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) . At 40mph, stop watch 3 seconds. Look at your speedometer. Record the speed. Raise the IQ +1. by slightly loosening the security screw and the three bottom screws for the IQ box. 'Hammer', actually means lightly tap the IQ toward the left side of the engine while watching the IQ reading change to a higher number. Repeat speed run and hammer mod until the 3 second speed run LOSES speed.

At that point you have past the correct IQ setting. Revert to the previous setting. From there, you can use the program in Engine Module/ Adaptation to fine tune the IQ, which can slightly raise or lower the IQ setting for more precision.

 

[KLXD]

Frank, I take it you are you referring to my last post?

I was referring to the scratches and blobs of epoxy as a methods people use to get the QA back where it was, not that it was useful for anything else and speculated about another method since emp started his last post with a comment about how hard it was to get it set where the engine would even start.

As for the rest maybe you will read what I said more carefully. With your use of CAPITAL LESS you seem to be implying I was saying something else. I said setting it at 3 rather than 5 would mean more fuel off idle where you said a higher number means less. Where I come from we're saying the same thing.

I then went on to try to splain WHY hammering the IQ to a lower number meant more fuel (or higher number meant less fuel, I did say vice versa) since if someone looked at the IQ while driving it would be now be higher than at idle and obviously using more fuel. But everyone just says the higher number means less fuel.

 

[emp]

Thanks guys I think when it gets a bit warmer i'm going to try franks procedure. Again thanks

 

[Franko6]

KLXD,

Ok. What I never have used is any WOT IQ number, except to see that it gets there. It does seem backward that at minimum fuel usage, I am looking for is the highest idle number that keeps me from losing performance, but when going to WOT, having IQ readings in the 50's is apparently is reversing the fuel volume and IQ idea. Perhaps I have been 'thinking backward'.

All I know for sure, the further toward the timing belt the IQ is moved, the shorter the stroke allowed on the distributor shaft, and therefore, less fuel. I have to rethink what is happening.

But the main point would be to get greatest efficiency when running at speed. The idle speed and as we check, and 2000rpm give us a point of reference for FE.

Setting the pump is one thing. Getting the injectors to properly fuel is the second half of the equation. For that, we use the idle balance numbers at idle and at 1575rpm, which is just below the point the idle balance quits operating. The difference between idle and 1575 in the idle balance compensation on well-balanced and calibrated injectors will show itself in increased fuel economy and performance.

 

[KLXD]

Frank, I'm just saying that when folks refer to a higher IQ number meaning less fuel it's only a comparison to the previous IQ setting. Both at idle. And that a run up a hill would show that in actual driving the IQ goes up when load and fuel requirement goes up.

I didn't mean to try and adjust the IQ setting based on WOT or high load conditions. Might be fun to play with but I don't know if it would tell you anything and doing it at idle gives nice easily repeatable settings based on a known load.

 

[Franko6]

I get it. We are not at odds. I find the discussion has given me a revisedperspective. The methods we use are time-tested, although it seems some may not initially make sense, they work.

Using idle balance IQ numbers, then slowly advancing to a higher IQ number will eventually cause WOT to lose performance. We have been using that IQ method for years with the idea to create better FE. So far, I think it works.