How auto standards & non-tariff trade barriers limit consumer choice in North America

[nicklockard]

How auto standards & non-tariff trade barriers limit consumer choice in North America

Good read over on r/depthhub:

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1u4zet/friends_car_just_did_this/ceepx9f?context=2


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[South Coast Guy]

Interesting. US car manufacturers produce around 17MM cars each year. This is significantly more than in europe. So we should modify our standards so european models can be sold in the US? Why not the other way around? Second, many of the compact cars produced in europe would have no market in the US. They are too small, use manual transmissions, etc to be accepted by the US market.

 

[GoFaster]

It's not just Europe. It's the entire rest of the world. Everywhere other than US (and, mostly, Canada) uses either UN-ECE standards or a close variation thereof. There should be ONE worldwide set of standards, and the US should not be so arrogant as to assume that its standards are the best (and for that matter, nor should EU).

The US emission standards are likely overly/unnecessarily stringent for cars, but are lax for motorcycles. The US collision standards are generally better, but the US requirement for airbags to protect unbelted occupants is absurd - if people are not wearing seat belts, they should be on their own. The UN-ECE headlamp standard is more modern. The mich-maligned EU pedestrian impact standard may be disliked by enthusiasts but in many cities (including Toronto), pedestrians are around half of traffic fatalities.

What needs to happen is that a representative from each organization needs to be locked in a room with orders to keep 50% of their own body of standards and use the other's 50% to replace the rest, and each come to an agreement on which 50% to keep and which 50% to relinquish, and thus come up with ONE set of standards that makes sense. It will never happen ...

But then, the US automation/robotics association has just replaced its own standard with essentially a duplicate of the ISO standard, after years of wrangling, so perhaps we should never say never. I never thought that would happen.

 

[South Coast Guy]

Sorry, seems all my auto needs are being met by cars produced to meet US standards.

 

[GoFaster]

Certainly, but I'm sure that all of your auto needs would equally be met by cars produced to UN-ECE standards.

They are both first-world standard bodies. There is no appreciable difference in overall "level of safety" in comparable cars produced to either standard. So why should a North-American-market Ford Focus or VW Golf be any different at all from the European-market model? There is no reason for it to be different - but it has to be.

The US model has reflectors. The UNECE model has amber turn signals. If the parking brake is on or the brake fluid is low, the UNECE model (and the Canadian model!) displays the international ISO symbol for this, in recognition that symbols are language-independent. But the US model says "BRAKE" in an English word which is meaningless gibberish to someone who lives in Turkey (or Quebec ...) and speaks only the native language. The window glass is different. The rear view mirrors are different ... and the US model has the English words "objects seen in mirror are losing" on the passenger mirror, the meaning of which is lost on anyone whose native tongue is other than English and pointless for anyone whose native tongue is, in fact, English. Airbags? They both have them, although the UN-ECE model has airbags that are differently calibrated in recognition that the passengers have undertaken their legal and moral responsibility to wear their safety belts. Emissions? The diesels are different, but the gas engines all have 3-way catalyst and lambda sensor and are virtually identical in real world emission output. We will grant that the US model has to pass a couple of crash tests that the UN-ECE model doesn't. But the independent Euro NCAP testing ensures that the manufacturers over-specify their vehicles in order to "ace" the independent tests, just like they do here with the IIHS independent tests. Likewise, independent testing by others in Europe - notably, the "moose test" - keeps manufacturers honest. The new Jeep Grand Cherokee did well - most likely in response to the prior model's failure and controversy ... http://www.teknikensvarld.se/jeepmoosetest-2014/

And it's worth noting that the NCAP and IIHS independent tests are different, too ... and that there have been a few notable examples of a model originating in the US which did spectacularly poorly in Euro-NCAP, which proves nothing other than just because a vehicle is US-spec doesn't automatically mean it is "safer"!

 

[Abacus]

...many of the compact cars produced in europe would have no market in the US. They are too small, use manual transmissions, etc to be accepted by the US market.

Go look at all the 'Smart' cars, Ion's, 500's, and most of the Pruis' and then come back and tell us what won't sell here.

Americans will buy any piece of junk offered before them if you market it cleverly enough.

Give me the choice of cars and let me decide. I was in Italy last fall and would LOVE to have that many choices of sweet cars.

 

[nicklockard]

Yes. Never say never. The FDA met with other regulatory bodies and participated in a harmonization conference, to much good effects. If the FDA and medical device industry do it, so can the FMVSS, EPA, and others.

Oh, and I for one would LOVE to have the Audi I rented in Europe, or the Citroens and Alfas I lusted after over there.


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[DPM]

Go look at all the 'Smart' cars, Ion's, 500's, and most of the Pruis' and then come back and tell us what won't sell here.
Americans will buy any piece of junk offered before them if you market it cleverly enough.
Give me the choice of cars and let me decide. I was in Italy last fall and would LOVE to have that many choices of sweet cars.

what makes the above-listed vehicles "junk"?

 

[Abacus]

what makes the above-listed vehicles "junk"?

Do you really want to get into a semantic argument? Have you ever driven a 'Smart' car? Pure trash.

 

[GoFaster]

I'd suggest that you're the one who should perhaps back off with the "trash" argument. Just because a particular vehicle does not suit your tastes and needs - or perhaps because you drove it for 5 minutes and never gave it a chance to get used to any quirks that it may have - does not make it "trash". I don't like the Priuses either, but they are practical and reliable and lots of people like them, and that pretty much excludes them from being "trash" or "junk". And there is no distinction between North American and Euro markets in this regard; there are sub-par vehicles sold in both markets.

The Fiat 500 is a pretty good car but required substantial re-engineering for the North American market. Some of that was to meet North American standards, because that vehicle was originally designed only for UN-ECE. But, some of it was to make an automatic transmission available, because in its original markets, there wasn't one ...

Over the years, more than a million people have found that a smart met their needs. If parking space is an issue, there is nothing with four wheels and a roof that is any better. If there is any small car that defies the "small car = unsafe" mantra, that is it. In many ways, they are very well engineered. They are quirky, no question. Thanks to the North American emission hurdles, we only get one plain-vanilla version, we don't get the diesels, the hybrid, or the turbo gas engine.

If you go to a vehicle class that you seem more tolerant of ... the European market has many versions that we don't, because of emission certification costs here.

 

[Abacus]

First of all, I was responding to DPG's comments about cars from Europe not being wanted in the US. I responded that if people bought the cars listed, then people here in the US would buy anything if given the choice.

Second, they are trash. Just because other people don't think they're trash doesn't mean 1) they aren't, and 2) that I don't think they are. Underpowered, cheaply built, crappy to drive, and misengineered. If they fit a niche, then they fit one, but that still doesn't mean they're any good.

But this is only my opinion, so please take it for what it's worth. Some people think the B4's are trash (and have told me such) and they are entitled to their opinion, it's just an opinion with which I happen to disagree.

 

[Lug_Nut]

So we should modify our standards so european models can be sold in the US? Why not the other way around?

Yeah! What he said! Lets not only use one standard for the vehicles, but one standard for driver education and licensing as well.

Ummmm... preferably a western Europe standard not a Russian, former Soviet bloc, Indian, or other.
Better drivers with less safe cars or worse drivers in safer cars is one thing. Getting a license by mail to drive a Tata isn't a 'standard'.

 

[DPM]

who is DPG?

 

[Abacus]

DogParkGuy.

 

[03_01_TDI]

Until a liberty Driven person is elected nothing will change. The major companies donate to the status quo system to protect there market. Nothing will change until voting patterns change.

The rules should have an exemption: any vehicle that offers x? or greater mpg over the average American car of that class segment can be imported.

 

[thebigarniedog]

It will never change. Goberment entities exist to continue their existence. The initial reason for being created gets lost in the 'importance' of the red tape they issue to help the great unwashed masses get washed. Cough .... CARB ..... It would be nice if 2014 becomes the year that people think with their brain as opposed to their "feelings".

 

[South Coast Guy]

Until a liberty Driven person is elected nothing will change. The major companies donate to the status quo system to protect there market. Nothing will change until voting patterns change.

The rules should have an exemption: any vehicle that offers x? or greater mpg over the average American car of that class segment can be imported.

Fuel mileage is not the only thing to consider when buying a car. I have owned my share of uncomfortable, economical cars and now vote for comfort and quiet. If you are concerned about mileage, look for ways to reduce the number of miles you drive.

 

[03_01_TDI]

Fuel mileage is not the only thing to consider when buying a car. I have owned my share of uncomfortable, economical cars and now vote for comfort and quiet. If you are concerned about mileage, look for ways to reduce the number of miles you drive.

Many euro cars are very comfortable and quite, while offering better mpg. The rules prevent them from being imported. Bend the rules and accept the euro standards when the car has xx% mpg above the American class average.

 

[CopaMundial]

I for one am shocked to learn that big companies would influence government policies in a way that would limit competition... and in a way that harms consumers in price and choices no less.
Well thanks to reddit and this thread we should now be able to eliminate greed.
Internet 1 : Deadly Sins 6

 

[South Coast Guy]

Many euro cars are very comfortable and quite, while offering better mpg. The rules prevent them from being imported. Bend the rules and accept the euro standards when the car has xx% mpg above the American class average.

Again, just the mileage being considered. I picture a very small car with 1 liter engine and 6-speed manual that seats 2. Very little space for luggage, no A/C, no R/W electric defroster, no power doors or windows. You are welcome to them.

 

[Abacus]

Again, just the mileage being considered. I picture a very small car with 1 liter engine and 6-speed manual that seats 2. Very little space for luggage, no A/C, no R/W electric defroster, no power doors or windows. You are welcome to them.

No kidding, something like that would never sell here. "...many of the compact cars produced in europe would have no market in the US. They are too small...to be accepted by the US market."

(Smart FourTwo)

(Fiat 500)

(Scion Ion)

Whew! I'm glad we won't have any of those running around!

 

[BadMonKey]

The little 500's seem to be selling well here, seeing more and more sub-compacts in the US every year. The smart cars are dead and MB is trying to salvage their loss's on it by making scooters or something.

I'd much rather have a true Fiat car then the chubby Chrysler's they have been releasing. Driving the Dart and new Cherokee was a huge face palm IMO. They both feel like a fat body on a little frame.

I think much of the offerings in Europe that we don't see here is more of the auto manufactures choice then any US requirements. Groups like Alfa-romeo have very little interest in the US market. Sure they would take extra sales but they aren't willing to make the huge investment to do it and i doubt Americans would tolerate their finicky nature.

 

[GoFaster]

On those three cars just posted ... The Fiat 500 is selling decently, if not spectacularly, and is not going anywhere. There are plenty of them on the road in the Toronto area. The smart is far from dead; there is a next generation planned (which will fix the much-criticized transmission, and it's going to be sharing a vehicle platform so hopefully M-B may actually make money on them). The Scion iQ (that's the proper name - not sure where "ion" came from), on the other hand, is probably a zombie at the moment, due to very low worldwide sales. It sells in fewer numbers than the smart, by a lot, and outside of Japan (where it is built), the US is the least-bad market for that car; it only sells half what smart does in US! Europeans buy even fewer of those compared to smart.

Somehow I gather that Abacus simply doesn't like small cars, doesn't like anything falling outside a narrow scope of specifications that he finds acceptable, and doesn't understand why anyone else would think differently ... that's the impression that I'm getting ...

 

[GoFaster]

I'd much rather have a true Fiat car then the chubby Chrysler's they have been releasing. Driving the Dart and new Cherokee was a huge face palm IMO. They both feel like a fat body on a little frame.

I think much of the offerings in Europe that we don't see here is more of the auto manufactures choice then any US requirements. Groups like Alfa-romeo have very little interest in the US market. Sure they would take extra sales but they aren't willing to make the huge investment to do it and i doubt Americans would tolerate their finicky nature.

The Fiat Panda and AlfaRomeo MiTo are decent little cars. That is the market niche that Fiat does best - always has been. Seemingly millions of Fiat Pandas on European roads.

Same platform as 500 ... more correctly, the 500 uses the same platform as Panda, which pre-dated it ...

 

[Abacus]

You're right about the iQ, I thought I saw them overseas last year and they were called the Ion, but I could be mistaken since it was last year.

Somehow I gather that Abacus simply doesn't like small cars, doesn't like anything falling outside a narrow scope of specifications that he finds acceptable, and doesn't understand why anyone else would think differently ... that's the impression that I'm getting ...

Well, I don't really care since they fit a niche, but do feel people are taken advantage of since they're often sold a bill of goods with regards to economy. But I am not a fan, no.

What i was referring to, since it seems to be missed by people, is the discussion of bringing EU cars to the US. Many of them are smaller and the argument was made that there is no market for such small cars, when there clearly is. The post I made above is actually satire referencing other posts. I have no issue with those cars since they often DO get the economy they claim, and I feel they'd sell very well over here. Personally, I would love to have a diesel Subaru or other fuel efficient and fun vehicle with the options I want, not what other people feel I should have. Yes, I am jealous of the Europeans for having so many choices.

Having driven a "Smart Car", which I feel is 'Smart" in name only, unless you need to park two in the space of one. Otherwise they just make no sense at all since they get poor economy, drive horribly, have no space, are not comfortable, and are just plain abysmal in almost every way.

The Scion iQ I have obviously not driven (since I got the name wrong), but have a good friend with an xA and that thing can take some abuse and keep on going. He has 150K on it now and has done very little to it for repairs.

But anyway, that's where I actually stand on small cars. I'm not averse to them for some people, just don't like to see them marketed for something they're not. I feel the 'masses' are being led astray by such antics. I have no problem with people thinking differently, but obviously some people have an issue with me doing the same.

 

[GoFaster]

EU-spec cars in US is not just about city cars. It's also about entire brands such as AlfaRomeo, Renault, Citroen, Seat, Peugeot, etc and they make plenty of vehicles that are not city cars (in fact, most aren't). Or brands that we know but models that we don't get, or variations of models we know but don't exist here, or powertrains that we can't get.

And it's not just European brands, either. Honda, for example, has abandoned hatchbacks in North America. But Civic hatchbacks are sold in Europe (and are built in Europe!). Want a Civic hatch? Can't get one here.

My main point - and I'm coming from the engineering side of things - is that it makes no sense to have two different main sets of standards worldwide plus additional local variations (e.g. Canada vs US, or Japan vs Europe vs Australia). Each set of standards has their strong and weak points and it's wrong to state that either set of standards is "better" and that the other side should abandon them (and this applies to BOTH sides). They should be combined into ONE set of standards, worldwide, that applies EVERYwhere. No more legal and technical barriers. Even if a vehicle manufacturer chooses not to sell a particular model here ... there should be nothing stopping YOU from simply buying one elsewhere and bringing it in, aside from the shipping costs.

If a particular model is sub-par in some way or uncompetitive ... the market will make that decision.

 

[CopaMundial]

Somehow I gather that Abacus simply doesn't like small cars, doesn't like anything falling outside a narrow scope of specifications that he finds acceptable, and doesn't understand why anyone else would think differently ... that's the impression that I'm getting ...

Please go back and re-read the posts from Abacus in this thread.
You're clearly missing what he's saying, or mistakenly attributing others comments to him.

OTHER people are saying "This or that car will not sell here because of this or that reason"... what ABACUS is saying is "Hey, I'm not a fan of those types of cars either, but obviously other people are because they sell. So bring it on, let them in and allow the consumer to decide for themselves what they want."

Your objections are not wrong. But they're being leveled against the wrong poster.

 

[kydsid]

They should be combined into ONE set of standards, worldwide, that applies EVERYwhere. No more legal and technical barriers. Even if a vehicle manufacturer chooses not to sell a particular model here ... there should be nothing stopping YOU from simply buying one elsewhere and bringing it in, aside from the shipping costs.

If a particular model is sub-par in some way or uncompetitive ... the market will make that decision.

Pipe dream. The era of free trade agreements and subsequent vilification of tariffs as a means of industry protectionism, price stabilization and export control has lead governments to using non-technical and scientific trade barriers as a replacement.

 

[nicklockard]

Yes, and that's sad. 'Free' market, RIP. If we had a free market, I'd have my choices of cars from all over. We also use emissions requirements as a trade barrier.

 

[kydsid]

How can something RIP that has never existed on a global scale?