GTC1444VZ in an ALH

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
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03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
I've had the 17/22 hybrid for ~130k miles and while I have been very happy with it's performance overall, it's 15 year old turbo technology I'm looking to improve low RPM power/response/drivability. These newer turbos like what was in my 2013 Passat TDI and this Volvo D3 are able to deliver airflow much quicker and at much lower RPM's than any turbo from the ALH generation while supporting ~150 HP.

2013 Passat Dyno Curve - I think it spools earlier than this, guessing the dyno operator didn't start the dyno curve much lower than 1500 RPM


Volvo D3 Dyno Curve


Between the DRW 6 speed transmission and my 215/55/17's I'm running ~1625 RPM at 60 MPH, ~1875 RPM at 70 MPH so I'm looking to make responsive, drivable power from ~1500 RPM to ~3000 RPM.

Now, I understand that the ALH injection system and 8 valve head will limit the potential compared to the common rail 16v/20v engines above, but we'll see how real those limitations are and see what can be done with it.

The install wasn't too bad all things considered, it's not PNP like a 17/22, but if you've got any kind of fabrication skills/equipment it should be no problem. I used an A3 TDI Exhaust manifold


Centered the exhaust ports and transferred the holes to the 1444 flange - 2) M8x1.25 and 1 through hole with a nut from the bottom, just like the A3 Turbo setup.


It mounts up well enough to re-use the OEM VNT15 Oil Feed, Drain and Compressor outlet lines.



A 2.25" V-Band fits well on the turbine outlet flange - you'll have to adapt this to your existing downpipe



A 3" Silicone 90 fits the compressor inlet perfectly and then you can run a 3" turbo inlet pipe.


Compared to the VNT15 - it hangs a little lower and a little farther away from the block and at a little bit of an angle.




 
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Fix_Until_Broke

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The oil feed line has to be tweaked a little and the oil drain line flange needs to have the side ground off ~3/16", but nothing major.


The turbo oil drain line fits, but it's a stretch. The actuator is right over the axle and the compressor outlet is closer to the axle than the OEM location.


Another bottom view...


A view from the back


It's blatantly obvious from this picture that there is going to be a clearance problem...but from underneath, it looked like it would clear.




But, it didn't


I had to remove the position sensor on the actuator in an attempt to get it to clear the axle, but that wasn't enough obviously.


I cobbled together the actuator and bracket from the 17/22 and got it at least driveable - It only gets the vanes closed about 2/3-3/4 of the way before the actuator can't pull the vanes closed anymore due to the geometry issues. I'm working on a couple different actuator solutions, but for now it's driveable.
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
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So, did all this do any good? Did I get any improvement in low RPM power or response?

This is far from optimized - With the actuator damage I cobbled my 17/22 actuator on to this turbo and it works, but not great. The actuator starts travel at ~3inHg, starts getting sticky at ~12inHg and stops at ~18inHg which is about 2mm from the stop screw on the turbo. This will get fixed so there is full and smooth actuator/vane travel over the range. I'll update this post/plots when I get that far.

The below plots compare the boost vs time and RPM between 3 different setups - all by the same tuner

1) My recent 17/22 setup with everything working properly
2) The 1444 with a damaged actuator - I couldn't make the actuator move more than 1mm no matter how fast I pumped the vacuum gauge (I even hooked it up directly to the vacuum pump on the engine) - So effectively the vanes are wide open all the time
3) The 1444 with a 17/22 actuator cobbled on it as described above





All of the above are 3rd gear pulls on the same stretch of road starting just off idle, foot to the floor - It makes for consistent/comparable data. Now back to real world driving - It's not quite as responsive as my 13 Passat (remember, minimal tuning and a wonky actuator setup at this point), but it's much more responsive than the 17/22, particularly just off idle when taking off from a stop light (1200 RPM), shift recovery, passing, etc - just push the throttle and there's 10-12 psi boost pretty much anywhere below 1500 RPM within less than 1 second.

I'm not going around flooring this thing at 1200 RPM all the time (or ever), actually I have not really changed my driving style at all - it's just more responsive in normal driving, less downshifting, less smoke, etc.
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

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Here's some driving around with video of my gauges looking at boost, emp, actuator vacuum, AFR, EGT's, RPM, IAT's and MPH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NVA339cuss

As mentioned below, this is not a high RPM turbo with EMP's hitting 45 PSI by 3500 RPM, but is very drivable.

This still has my cobbled up actuator on it - been too busy with other projects to change it, and it works pretty well as it is.


EDIT - Made some adjustments to the actuator location and it made a big difference. Similar video here https://youtu.be/3JNAKcuDCxI

See Post 86 for more details /EDIT
 
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Fix_Until_Broke

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I got my Live Dyno setup installed and took some data on this setup. I'm very pleased with the result.

Signature copy below for reference running RC6 tune here for this data

03 Jetta, Cat 2u, DG Steel SP w/MOGolf Mod, 3"DP, 4"EXH, EaBP110 Bypass, Euroswitch, ECodes, Driving Light, PD Lift Pump, R520's, RC5,RC6, TDTuning, Malone, ScanGaugeII, 3" TIP, 2" TOP, GTC1444VZ, 3 Bar MAP, VR6 MAF, Vented Fender Liner, Battery Cover Mod, 11mm, Monster Mats, 215/55/17 (27.9/53.0/75) Monthly MPG Links, Euro Trunk Latch, IDParts RSB, SDI or ALH Intake, ARL Ceramic Pistons, Rosten Rods, DRW, Wavetrac, SBC, FSD's, Beef Springs, Rebuilt Head, Recaro's, Colt II, DG Sigma 6, RMT200



Not too far off (in shape, numbers may not be accurate) to the Volvo D3 that this turbo came from.
 
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kooyajerms

grocery getter
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Nice work FUB. Looks like an AFN/BHW manifold would have fixed the axle issue but possibly pulled that return line a bit much.
 

burpod

teh stallionz!!1
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82 rabbit vnt ahu, 98 jetta vnt ahu, 05 parts car, 88 scirocco.. :/
or better yet the new style ahu/1z one that uses the threaded junction and not the banjo :p
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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The BHW manifold angles it back a lot more - I'd be concerned about it hitting the firewall or the compressor outlet hitting the axle then, plus for sure having to make new oil feed/drain lines.

Given that this is an experiment, I didn't want to put huge amounts of time/$$/effort into it in case it ends up not working well.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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This is very interesting. I've been very close to putting a 15 back in my wagon because I miss the low-speed spool that turbo offers but know I would be sacrificing a lot of top end performance if I did. And my 17/22 is now set up and tuned pretty well, although you still don't want to get on it hard below 2200 RPM or so. This may be an ideal solution.

One thing I noticed on both dynos you showed is that those engines are done making power by 3800-3900 RPM. Do you think that's characteristic of the CR engines or the turbos? I know the Passat turbo is smaller and spools faster than even the CBEA/CJAA, but rev range is pretty limited. And in my Golf I've noticed there's little point in going above 4000 RPM.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Peter - This turbo starts to fade above 3000 and is pretty much done by 4000 RPM.

Now, I have a cobbled together actuator setup that only closes the vanes to ~75% closed and gets sticky above ~50% travel so it's subject to change, but generally speaking, I gained 500-700 RPM of low RPM power/response and lost 1000/1500 RPM of high RPM power with this turbo. Some of this is me being a bit conservative and following the stock D3 boost map which starts dialing the boost back by ~3000 RPM, but it also shows in the logs where the N75 is at 100% and actual boost is still above requested over 3000 RPM.

See Post 3 in a few minutes...
 

andy2

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I'd be amazed if this turbo could support around 150hp on an ALH while keeping EGT's below 1300 deg.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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andy2 - why such a low EGT limit?

EGT gauge is currently broken (new one is at the shop, will install over Christmas) so I don't know where my EGT's are, but AFR's are ~18:1 so I'm not too concerned at this point.

IAT's are similar to less at similar boost levels (still stock SMIC).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Makes it sound like a really interesting mild upgrade for an AHU or 1Z. They're done at 4K anyway. Wonder if it would require an engine mount mod.

Don't think it's what I want in my ALH, however, I love the power it makes between 3 and 5K. And with its latest tune it's much more amenable to lugging than before.
 

andy2

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andy2 - why such a low EGT limit?

EGT gauge is currently broken (new one is at the shop, will install over Christmas) so I don't know where my EGT's are, but AFR's are ~18:1 so I'm not too concerned at this point.

IAT's are similar to less at similar boost levels (still stock SMIC).
I was refering to 150hp sustained while keeping egt's below 1300 deg F max.

Looks like you'll get better response when the actuator gets sorted out.
 

JFettig

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Andy, I think he's asking why you would need to keep it below 1300 deg F. EGT limits on these turbos are probably at least 1650, maybe even as high as 2000F
 

andy2

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Oh I see,I was more curious if the engine could take 150 hp all day long on that turbo.
 

ryanp

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I think the GTC1549 is the smallest single i would use, the 360lbs torque it produces at 2000rpm is enough to groan a brand new DMF and it makes 200hp+ with reasonable EGT's.

This 1444 would be nice for the Compound setup I'm sure, especially with the 3" inlet!!
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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dieseleux - thanks for the reminder, I forgot to mention EMP's. They may change a little once I get the actuator setup correctly

EMP's are ~0.5:1 at 1500 RPM
EMP's are ~1.0:1 at 2500 RPM
EMP's are ~1.5:1 at 3500 RPM
 

dieseleux

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dieseleux - thanks for the reminder, I forgot to mention EMP's. They may change a little once I get the actuator setup correctly

EMP's are ~0.5:1 at 1500 RPM
EMP's are ~1.0:1 at 2500 RPM
EMP's are ~1.5:1 at 3500 RPM
With that, you see this turbo is not hi-rev and hi-flow for 1.9 TDI engine, is very good for daily.


Dieseleux
 

JTT

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that is very interesting, really a nice built!
congrats with the results, must be day and night difference over the 17/22 (didnt know its that laggy)
guess fuel economy could be really increased with longer gear ratios now.

regards
 

Alcaid

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IIRC the 1.6TDI engine (using a GTC1244VZ) has a 850°C/1562°F EGT limit in software
 

Rub87

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Nice you got it up and running fast.. I lied in my basement for 2 year not having the time to install it as HP ;/ keep up the good work! for even more spool dail timing at full load/low rpm slightly back. I experimented a bit last weekend on a BKD with 2056vk, and it makes a noticeable difference,

at cruise slightly under full load you can run slightly more advanced to gain efficiency
 

K.I.T.T.

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Nice you got it up and running fast.. I lied in my basement for 2 year not having the time to install it as HP ;/ keep up the good work! for even more spool dail timing at full load/low rpm slightly back. I experimented a bit last weekend on a BKD with 2056vk, and it makes a noticeable difference,

at cruise slightly under full load you can run slightly more advanced to gain efficiency
Next year, I hope to (finally :rolleyes:) visit you with one of these turbos to experiment on a 3 cylinder. 250NM by 1800rpm would be nice.

F_U_B, any plans to dyno it? Either way, looking forward to some logs if you're able to do some once the actuator is sorted out!

Ash :)
 
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