Geo Metro diesel...

[bhtooefr]

OK, I've already posted this to TeamSwift and The Car Lounge (related to the Whoretex)...

Here's the deal. 40 MPG isn't enough. Heck, 50 or 60 MPG isn't enough.

Give me 80 or 90 MPG.

Unfortunately, the Lupo 3L TDI isn't available in the US. And, even if it was, I wouldn't be able to afford it.

So, I have to make my own.

What car did we have in the US that was known for being lightweight, relatively aerodynamic, and super fuel efficient?

I've actually looked up the specs... A stock Geo Metro is slightly worse when it comes to aerodynamics than a Lupo 3L TDI, but it weighs 200 pounds less.

So... that leaves an engine. Which engine, is the question...

I'm thinking Kubota D950. And there's a reason. I've got four of them, three are in non-running tractors, and one is in a derelict wreck that'll never be usable and has very little useful parts.

http://media.putfile.com/Kubota-D950-Startup <-- video of the running D950 starting... yes, that's a lot of smoke. I suspect that that engine needs a reringing.

So, today I've been fighting with the engine in the derelict chassis. Got oil, got coolant, got some fresh fuel and additivized (hasn't been run in roughly 2 years), and threw a battery on. Tried to crank and... nothing. Turns out, the ignition switch was busted, so I got 12V to the starter, and all that jazz. After various attempts at getting more juice to it, I finally got it turning. Got tiny puffs of grey smoke, but no fire.

Anyway, that's not what this thread is about. That's a minor issue.

I need to know if anyone can recommend companies that can make a custom adapter plate, engine mounts, and other necessary stuff to connect this engine to a Suzuki tranny.

It uses a SAE #5 bellhousing, FWIW...

 

[ICNTDRV]

With a little lip spoiler coming off the roof of the Metro to level off the slant of the rear window you could probably achieve better aerodynamics than the Lupo

 

[bhtooefr]

http://www.metrompg.com/posts/boat-tail-prototype.htm

Like that?

 

[michigandon]

You could always use a 10HP Changfa instead:

http://www.utterpower.com/10hp_chevy.htm

Don

 

[bhtooefr]

Yeah, I know about that.

I'd like to not TOTALLY get run over.

 

[DPM]

First and most important question: It *does* turn the right way?

 

[TurbinePower]

Wonder if I could Kammback my Quantum wagon...

I seem to recall hearing/reading somewhere that a 15 degree incline on the back is optimal?

 

[bhtooefr]

DPM, yes. Kubota engines turn CCW when viewed from the flywheel, Zuk trannies turn CW when viewed from the input shaft. Therefore, they turn the same way.

Also, that picture of a Geo I used was of a similar Geo to this project, which has a Kubota diesel mated to a Suzuki trans. (For those that don't know, the Geo Metro is a rebadged Suzuki. )

 

[therabbittree]

do a 1.4 or 1.2 L tdi ..ecode parts off of vortex has complete with ecu and wiring swaps for $2000 or less.. I would go that route.
Later,
Deo

 

[DPM]

There's plenty other small diesel combos that would be easily available this side of the Pond that could be used- the 1.4/ 1.5 Peugeot TUD might be non-turbo and IDI but it's a rugged little bugger and would drop into place easily...

The new Swift comes in a diesel variant (and a lovely little car it is too, looks VERY like a New Mini) but there are no diesel listed in any territory for the previous Swifts.

 

[bhtooefr]

Before anyone suggests things like 1.2TDIs (dammit, I'm salivating), realize that I'd STILL have to get the adapter plate and custom mounts. (That said, they're widely available, thanks to the Samurai people...)

I already have the Kubota engines, plus parts.

 

[nicklockard]

Go with the Kubota. Figure out a way to put a turbo to it though

 

[bhtooefr]

Well, on some other Kubota 3-cyl diesels, they have turbos.

So, I may graft one on, but I'll have to look at the service manuals for those engines, to see if they're adding oil squirters or anything.

I'd do this ECOdiesel style - use the turbo to clean up the exhaust and get a touch more power.

 

[nicklockard]

Well, on some other Kubota 3-cyl diesels, they have turbos.

So, I may graft one on, but I'll have to look at the service manuals for those engines, to see if they're adding oil squirters or anything.

I'd do this ECOdiesel style - use the turbo to clean up the exhaust and get a touch more power.

Heck, you can pick up an intercooler from someone upgrading to a FMIC here for practically nothing. If you do fit a turbo, fit an intercooler as well.

BTW: cool project. While you're at it, are you going to clean up the aero then? I think 80 mpg is very achievable with the correct driving style. Also, look to gut weight wherever you can (i.e. get rid of stock fuel tank and replace with something lighter, mufflerecto-mize it, etcetera...)

 

[GaGolfSup]

Keep us updated. Is there emissions testing in Ohio, or can you get an exemption for a hobby car? Here we don't have to have diesels tested, but the car has to have a VIN matching a diesel VIN.

 

[compu_85]

The county where 2fer lives does not have e-check.

-Jason

 

[bhtooefr]

No emissions testing, no fuel type on the title.

Technically, this is illegal (repowering with an off-road-only engine), but nobody will question it. The stock 1.0L engine, by this time, will have worn out so badly it would have worse emissions, by the looks of this Kubota's emissions just from trying to crank it. 3800 hours and it was barely puffing. (It was SO close to catching... oh, and the engine in the video above had 401 hours. Hmm. Must have overheated some time or something.)

I'm definitely cleaning up some aero. It does look like doing the headlights isn't worth it - dammit, I want my e-codes, and the only way to get glass aero e-codes is the Suzuki Swift front clip, that has a grille that adds a lot of drag.

I would definitely be adding an intercooler if I were to turbo it. I may have to do some intake rerouting ANYWAY, as the Kubota turbo setup probably won't let the hood close.

Mufflerectomy only if I turbo it.

The stock fuel tank will be left in, it's not that heavy. Suzuki has a habit of making things as light as they can. Plus, 10.6 gallons of fuel capacity... that's almost 850 miles at 80 MPG! However, I will be gutting the interior. Only one seat, and that'll be the driver's seat. I'll be removing the carpet, headliner, and most interior trim.

 

[dieseldorf]

 

[bhtooefr]

Technically that's a Mk4 or Mk5 Swift, not a Metro. I've seen that picture on Wikipedia.

 

[dieseldorf]

I was thinking about the Swift with the 16V engine. Are the Swift and Metro the same car?

 

[bhtooefr]

Yes, the 1st-generation (Mk1), 2nd-generation (Mks2/3), and 3rd-generation (Mks4/5) Metro and Swift are the same.

http://www.teamswift.net/ <-- forum for these things

The 4th-gen (Euros call it the 3rd-gen, because they never got the 3rd-gen, from what I hear) Swift is NOT the same as the Metro (or Aveo). It's not sold in North America.

 

[wjdell]

Do it - if you can find a metro it would be worht the expense. The 5 speed transaxle would be effiecent. Drive it like a truck, not sure about the optimum revs the D950 but if its around 1800. Good luck and keep us posted.

PS there is a A/C auto radiator available for the metro it has a 1 quart higher capacity. The most complex part will be the adapter plate for the engine, the motor mounts will be easy. Have you measured the length of the 950 compared to the suzuki 1 litre. Wish you were local I would love to participate. Do you have the ability to cut steel and weld the cost would be low. The adapter plate I would find a fabricator and take the motor and trans to him and let him mate it. The stock flywheel on my D662 is huge, plenty for a mini car.

 

[bhtooefr]

The 950 is damn short, I'm not sure how short relative to the 1L, but I don't really care, as the Geo's bay was designed to hold a 1.3L 4-cyl.

Anyway... this is a copy and paste I'm putting everywhere:

Here's the engine's fuel consumption per HP curve:



Bottom line is fuel consumption for intermittent horsepower. I've run the numbers, and at WOT, the worst I can get at any RPM is 64 MPG.

RPMs are in steps of 200 on that chart, from 1400 to 3000. Fuel is in steps of 0.05 pounds per bhp per hour, from 0.4 to 0.5. HP is in steps of 2 HP from 8 to 22. Middle set of lines are gross HP, intermittent HP and constant HP. Top set of lines is gross, intermittent and constant torque in steps of 5 ft-lbs, from 30 to 40.

Got the engine running today, FWIW. (And figured out how to get Sprint to give me real QuickTime videos, so that YouTube wouldn't barf all over them. )

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jHV4RZsl-bI

 

[nicklockard]

Hmmm...my '90 Geo Metro 2 door had a 1.0 liter 3-cylinder putting out 75 horsepower, IIRC. How much HP does that Kubota put out? Anything less than 55 hp or so is going to be absolutely unsafe on the freeway. It maybe okay for rural roads though or places with little traffic. I still think this is a creative and cool project

That chart is hard to read, but is the peak hp really 22 ? Shoot, weld two in a V6 configuration on a common crank and slap a turbo in the Vee

 

[bhtooefr]

Yours was putting out 55 hp, FWIW, unless you had swapped in the G10 Turbo, which had 77. And, before you say "anything less than 55 hp or so is going to be absolutely unsafe on the freeway", somehow, my 52 hp 2200 pound Golf can go 85 MPH following SUVs. This is going to be 1600 pounds BEFORE weight reduction - likely 1400 pounds after.

And, yes, this Kubota does put out about 22. Right now, that is. After rev limiter mods, and a possible turbo addition...

Note that fuel economy minimum, though. (Of course, the rev limiter mods will change that... *sigh*)

 

[FredIA]

The 1980's IDI VW and Merc all were about 50 HP, so it's possible.

No matter what, this will be one funny vehicle.. good luck with it. 22 HP.. my lawn tractor with a B&S gas engine has more power than that, tho. There's a bit of difference between 22 and 55 HP though...

I actually know a couple of other rural folks that have that Kubota engine in their tractors. If you progress with this I'll have to send them links..

Fred

 

[nicklockard]

Yours was putting out 55 hp, FWIW, unless you had swapped in the G10 Turbo, which had 77. And, before you say "anything less than 55 hp or so is going to be absolutely unsafe on the freeway", somehow, my 52 hp 2200 pound Golf can go 85 MPH following SUVs. This is going to be 1600 pounds BEFORE weight reduction - likely 1400 pounds after.

And, yes, this Kubota does put out about 22. Right now, that is. After rev limiter mods, and a possible turbo addition...

Note that fuel economy minimum, though. (Of course, the rev limiter mods will change that... *sigh*)

Ah, memory bank was degraded yeah, hopefully you can boost the Kubota to about 35 hp or so. That and the drastic weight reduction should help a ton. Put some Kerma nozzles in it and get it RC'd Wish I could help. This project's going to be a ton of fun, I imagine!

 

[bhtooefr]

RC'd?

More like a fuel cam regrind.

 

[Typrus]

My 1984 Toyota Tercel 4wd Wagon will pull 90+mph on a flat grade with its stock little 62HP till. WONDERFUL little car. New they got upwards of 38mpg highway. Not bad for a 1.5L I-4 SOHC non-crossflow 8-valve 2-bbl carbureted 2400lb flying shoebox.
I've topped it at over 120MPH downhill. Then it just can't push past the air any more. Underbody full-length bellypan with evacuation louvres, front end rework to the German-style flat front, maybe a tasteful bodykit to clean up aerodynamics and aesthetics, and a 1 to 2 inch drop to get it to ride height of its 2wd cousin on the planning board... Fast and economical...


I also have a 1996 Geo Metro sedan. 1.3L I-4 "Sport" engine. lol. What a laugh. 5-Speed manual, 4-door style. Its cheap, noisy, and awesome. Who the heck says Metro's are loser cars? We often saw 50mpg at 70mph on the freeway. That even beats out our TDI Passat.
Unfortunatly its tranny bombed out the 2nd gear. Its happily awaiting a new tranny right now.

Point? Even the "heavy" 4-door sedan with the "big" 1.3L 4-banger is quite capable of great fuel economy. It was always stock, up to the 125k miles when it blew the tranny out. Lesson there? CHANGE YOUR GEAR LUBE!!! And clutch...

It'd be a pretty neat idea to try and put a 1.9L TDI into one of these. It'd turn into quite the rocket....



Anyway....
What will those Kubota's till over at? The only Kubota 3-cyl's I've had experience with topped about 3000RPM. With 3k you'll be near-redlining the poor thing on the freeway. Might want to either try and find something that'll handle higher RPM's or find some sort of overdrive addition. Might even be able to mod the 5th gear to a different ratio?

I think the Geo Metro and Suzuki Swift's are the most economical cars released to the US in a long time.....


Man, that Swift GT with the 16-valve was a monster compared to its brothers... It shared essentially everything with the 1.3L SOHC except the head.
I'm pretty sure they all came with cast rods and a forged crank... They are very tough for their size and power...

 

[bhtooefr]

Well, I'll use the 1.3 SOHC's tranny, which has a 3.52 final drive and a 0.76 5th gear. ~2750 RPMs for when I want on the freeway, going the 65 MPH speed limit.

And, yes, the "peak" HP RPM is at 3000 (although that's really just what Kubota says is the max constant RPM, the curve keeps rising past 3000...) but 3200 is the rev limiter. I plan on adjusting the rev limiter.