Engine Oil

Charlotte Fox

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Location
texas
TDI
06 beetle
I'm currently using RP 15W40 in my 2005 TDI Beetle and also in a 2001 and 2002 TDI jetta. Some people are saying it;s OK in the 01 and 02 but not the 05 because it;s a PD and the RP does not meet VW spec 505.01. Any comments. The 05 has about 66,000 miles and I have had no issues with the engine or associated parts.
Thanks
 

Lee_Taylor

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
Kent, England
TDI
Audi A3 1.4 COD
RP? Royal Purple? If it was me I would use a 505.01 rated oil or something like Mobil 1 TDT. I wouldn't use a 15W40 in any modern VW but others may disagree. The issue of worn cams and the use of the incorrect oil has been beaten to death on here. There are plenty of threads. Since you are out of warranty then you can use whatever oil you like, but the absence of problem now doesn't mean you are not going to have expensive issues later on.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
PLLLLLEEEEEEAAAASE go to the "Fuels and Lubricants" section and read the "What oil do I use? READ FIRST BEFORE ASKING" sticky thread!

The RP 15w40 does not meet the VW 505.01 standard for your P-D engine and does not meet VW 505.00 for your older engines. Having said that, quite a few people are using oils that do not meet those standards, but are well chosen for their additive package, in those engines. Royal Purple is not one of the common choices; that doesn't mean it's bad, but it means you need to do your homework.

Most 15w40 oils use a non-synthetic base stock. If that is the case with the Royal Purple, I would not recommend continuing to use it in ANY of your cars.

Not all motor oils have adequate extreme-pressure additive packages for the P-D engines. Go to www.bobistheoilguy.com and look for oil analysis tests on that oil. Look for adequate ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus). 1200-ish ppm is good. Low (800-ish or lower) could be trouble.

The "15" part of the 15w40 would be trouble in a cold climate, but I think in your case it will be fine. Just make sure it's a synthetic base stock, and that it has adequate ZDDP in it. Or, switch to Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck or Shell Rotella T6 for all of your cars and then forget about it ...
 

Charlotte Fox

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Location
texas
TDI
06 beetle
Engine oil

OK I have read again the FAQ about oil. The RP does meet the spec equal to or better than CG-4 or CH-4. The only thing I see is the RP is 15W40 instead of 5W40, but down here in hot Texas weather I can't see where that would really be a problem. So if the RP is really not VW spec 505.01, what brand oil's is the VW spec. Looking in the VW manual is calls out for 505.00 (01/02) and 505.01 for the 05, but also list CG-4 or Ch-4 oil's or better. So I guess the question is, just what the ------- is 505.01 oil?
Thanks
 

vwluca

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Location
South shore from Montreal, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta GLS
In 2 words, 505.01 is a mixture of additives and anti wear stuff. Many known manufacturer have it like Castrol TXT from dealer and the following companies.

http://www.my-gti.com/2532/volkswagen-oil-standard-505-01-approved-oils

I used 15W40 in my 1985, 1989 and 1991 VW Diesels. Now have been using Castrol TXT 5W40 for the past 215,000km.

Good luck
Luc
Montreal, Canada
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Where in any of your cars' manuals did you see 15w40 as an acceptable weight oil in a TDI or gas VAG engine? Why would you even consider that? :cool:
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
Being a synthetic 15w40, it behaves very much like a 5w40 unless you get around 0F or less. Conventional 15w40s though are much different.

RP 15w40 is a CJ-4 oil, fine in those 3 TDIs.
 

Charlotte Fox

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Location
texas
TDI
06 beetle
I did not say the manual said I could use 15W40, the manual says the oil must me CG-4 or Ch-4 spec oil. The manual recommends 5W40.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
That would be the manual for the older cars. The P-D owners manual does not say that. It says that the oil has to meet VW 505.01 (an internal VW standard for engine oil) and no exceptions or alternatives.

All motor oils that meet VW 505.01 are inherently 5w40 oils. There is a "grandfathering" system in which it claims that oils meeting VW 506.01 and VW 507.00 also meet 505.01 and those are 0w30 or 5w30 oils, but "actual field experience" with 30-weight oils in P-D engines (like your 2005) has not been good, especially in warm climates.

Quite a number of P-D owners, including myself, have been using non-505.01 oils in these engines, but only oils with carefully chosen additive packages.

I took the opportunity to do some digging on the Bobistheoilguy site to see what the general situation was with Royal Purple 15w40. It does appear to be a synthetic base stock. The only oil analysis that I found dated back several years, and appeared to contain a reasonable amount of zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP) and also a reasonable amount of molybdenum (another extreme-pressure additive). Unfortunately, the fact that this oil analysis dates back several years opens the possibility that it could have been reformulated in the meantime.

If the oil in that analysis is consistent with what they are still making today, and given that you are in a hot climate, I think you will be okay with it. But at least around these parts, Royal Purple is not commonly found and not inexpensive when it is found. We know that Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck has given good oil-analysis results in these engines.
 

Charlotte Fox

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Location
texas
TDI
06 beetle
Well that was going to be my next question. If I decided to stop using the RP, which oils that is 50501 spec oil does most people use. I know thats a loaded questions,but other than the stealerships or online this oil is not readily availible.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
As noted in the oil "read this first" thread, it is VW's responsibility to set out the specifications. It is the choice of the lubricant manufacturers to make a marketing decision concerning whether to sell oils meeting that specification or not. That they have largely not chosen to do so, is not VW's fault and it is not VW's problem!

You can either (A) have the car serviced at the dealership (whether this is right or wrong is another matter), or (B) buy 505.01 oils online or from VW specialist shops (all of the VW specialist shops around here carry a few brands of 505.01 oils), or (C) have the car serviced at a VW specialist shop (no problem), or (D) use carefully-researched alternatives to 505.01 (Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck, Rotella T6 are the well-known ones), or (E) use something else and take your chances.

Don't forget that a lot of people don't know much about cars, aren't on this forum, don't read warning labels or owner's manuals, and probably just take the car to the corner quickie lube, and who knows what they're going to get there ...
 

slpopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Location
Central Minnesota
TDI
2005 NB GLS TDI DSG
I have been using the Valvoline Syn Power 5W40 MST oil. It is carried by the NAPA store in my area, by the quart or by the case (6 quarts). It has the VW 505.01 approval. You need to make sure you get the "MST" or "European" marked containers, check the back of the bottle to be sure.

Valvoline Synpower link

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/5

Data for 505.01 oil is on the second page of the product data sheet

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/SynPower.pdf

 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
My question is if the accepted list is so long, why is availability so limited?
Because Volkswagen enjoys less than 4% of the sales here (unlike the rest of the world, especially Europe, where they dominate... try finding a sidepost battery for a domestic GM product in Germany, same thing).
 

Teutonic_Tamer

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Location
Swampyland, UK
TDI
none, Golf V GTI DSG, B7 RS4
OK I have read again the FAQ about oil. The RP does meet the spec equal to or better than CG-4 or CH-4. The only thing I see is the RP is 15W40 instead of 5W40, but down here in hot Texas weather I can't see where that would really be a problem. So if the RP is really not VW spec 505.01, what brand oil's is the VW spec. Looking in the VW manual is calls out for 505.00 (01/02) and 505.01 for the 05, but also list CG-4 or Ch-4 oil's or better. So I guess the question is, just what the ------- is 505.01 oil?
Thanks
The simple answer - a 505.01 oil (one that is actually tested, certified and approved by Volkswagen Germany) is a considerably better oil than an oil which only meets CG-4, CH-4 or any other non-VW standard (when specifically referring to a Volkswagen Group TDI engine :p).


A more detailed answer:
CG-4 and CH-4 are 'generic', 'one size fits all' specifications - from the American Petroleum Institute (API). That means that API oils, being generic, will suitable (when only API specs, and not any other OEM standards are specified) for ALL types of engines, in all types of vehicles - from small displacement high relative power output turbo diesels in small light-weight performance cars - all the way through to massive displacement non-turbo low relative power output engines in say trucks, farm tractors or earth movers.

Furthermore, the "A" bit of the API - 'American' - nowadays, API are generally targeted towards engines of North American origin (which are generally larger displacement, less technically advanced in design [though I agree that is subjective, and not always true] but with considerably lower power output), and for compliance with North American emissions standards. However, Volkswagen, being European, (and having to comply with differing European Union emissions standards, and also much different types of journies [speeds are generally much higher in Europe, and shorter journies too in Europe]), design their engines quite different to North America. European engines are generally much smaller in displacement, with diesels generally being turbocharged, often rev higher, and will produce much more power than an equivalent displacement North American engine. So with these differences between American and European engine designs, Europe needed to create their own oil standards (initially CCMC, now ACEA), and even following these European oil standards, individual manufacturers felt the need to create their own 'OEM' standards (VW, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Vauxhall/Opel [GM Europe marques] and even Ford Europe).


So, understanding the above - you should hopefully agree that a 505.01 oil is considerably better 'tailored' to your VW engine. Think of a 'made to measure' suit compared to a suit from a high street retailer - the made to measure on will (should!) fit much better, be made from higher quality cloth, and hopefully last much longer than an 'off the peg' high street suit.

HTH :)
 

Teutonic_Tamer

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Location
Swampyland, UK
TDI
none, Golf V GTI DSG, B7 RS4
Being a synthetic 15w40, it behaves very much like a 5w40 unless you get around 0F or less. Conventional 15w40s though are much different.
Nope - ALL 15w40 oils, be they mineral, semi-synthetic or fully synthetic - will all perform according to the SAE viscosity requirements (plus or minus the standard deviations).


RP 15w40 is a CJ-4 oil, fine in those 3 TDIs.
Sorry, but strongly disagree. The oil must also meet the required VW OEM specification. A VW specified oil which also meets an API specification is simply co-incidental.
 

scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
Being a synthetic 15w40, it behaves very much like a 5w40 unless you get around 0F or less. Conventional 15w40s though are much different.
This makes no sense. The SAE viscosity grades don't know - or care - if it's mineral or synthetic oil. The only thing synthetic 15w40 and 5w40 share is a hot viscosity range and additive packages typical for diesels. Would you run RP 15w40 in your car, Bob? ;)

Don't use 15w40, especially at Royal Purple prices. Shell Rotella T6 or Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck (both 5w40) are far better choices, likely much cheaper as well.
 

ZiggyTheHamster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
Richmond, CA
TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI
Pep Boys carries many manufacturer-specific oils, like Mobil 1 ESP and Mobil 1 ESP Formula M, and the price is pretty good (little less than $8/L last time I did my oil change). Since I don't need 505.01 oil, I didn't look, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did carry 505.01 oil since they carry 507.00 oil.
 

TooSlick

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 2, 1999
Location
Dixie
TDI
Audi 100S
Really no issue with running a 15w-40 synthetic in temps down to 0F. If you take the 40C and 100C viscosities and extrapolate the data, you'll see very little difference between a 5w-40 and a 15w-40 synthetic until you get to << 0F.

FWIW, I occasionally ran a 20w-50 synthetic year round, in my old Audi 100 sedan down here in the south. I never had any starting issues when the temps were in the low teens. The only drawback was a slight loss of fuel efficiency from the heavy oil.

TS
 

scurvy

Good Ol' Boy
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
Chicago IL USA
TDI
2006 Golf
http://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html
I'm aware of widman's viscosity calculator and I've rarely put any stock in extrapolating second- or higher-order behavior from two data points - especially when those data points are at 40ºC & 100ºC and you're looking at behavior at 0ºC!

However, here's two images that explains oil's behavior at the temperatures we're looking at:



and



You fancy yourself knowledgeable about oil, Bob. Would YOU run 15w40 in your TDI?
 

Charlotte Fox

Active member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Location
texas
TDI
06 beetle
Well being the one that started this thread sure got alot of response. I did talk with the NAPA store I buy parts from and they do handled the Valvoline SYNPOWER "MST" 5W40 which is approved VW oil 505.01, $7.50 a qt. if I buy 2 cases 6 qts in a case. With 4 TDI'd (01,02 Jetta's and 2 05 Bugs) it won't last long. Thanks for everyone's input. I'll use the rest of the RP 15W40 in my 2 Chevy 6.5 diesels.
 

bulabula

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Location
Millersville, MD
TDI
A5 Jetta; A4 Golf 2-door; Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel
I'm with Bob - I've got no issues running syn 15W-40 at zero temps either; not so with mineral 15W-40 though.

Hey Charlotte, not that I am a fan of Walmart, but go look for Mobil1 TDT there, they usually have some good deals (thats where I buy my 3 gallon oil change oil for the Cummins).

Y'all can go back to your food fight now......
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
I'm aware of widman's viscosity calculator and I've rarely put any stock in extrapolating second- or higher-order behavior from two data points - especially when those data points are at 40ºC & 100ºC and you're looking at behavior at 0ºC!
However, here's two images that explains oil's behavior at the temperatures we're looking at:

and

You fancy yourself knowledgeable about oil, Bob. Would YOU run 15w40 in your TDI?
Those-that-know agree at least down to 0C, it's accurate (Doug and Widman both). Below that, stuff starts behaving non-linear.

Those images explain the behavior of conventional 15w40s, not synthetic 15w40 (even says mineral oil in one and omits the word synthetic in the other). VI is a big factor here. The SAE grade tells how it flows in very cold temps (a range of values), and how thick it in when hot (also a range). What happens between, the shape of the curve, varies from oil to oil, with basestock playing a big role.

Here's a graph of Delvac 15w40 and Amsoil 15w40. From 0C and up, most synthetic 15w40s behave like the oft lauded TDT. If TDT is so good, synthetic 15w40s can't be bad. From 0C to -20C you can extrapolate *some* about how it flows compared a similar 5w40.



I would have no issues running a synthetic 15w40 in areas where it doesn't get too cold in the winter, stays above 0F. Don't try that with a conventional 15w40 though.
 
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FowVay

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2000
Location
Georgia
TDI
2009 Jetta returned to der Führer
I'm going to cast a vote for the support of the Royal Purple 15W-40 also. The PD TDI hasn't impressed anyone with it's durability while using the Volkswagen recommended lubricant and most in-the-know types are fully supportive of the more robust use of a higher SAPS 5W-40. Take it one step further and get the stability of a 15W-40 with a strong base stock, hearty additive package and a stable viscosity spread.

Only time will tell whether it's a good combination but based on the knowledge we have of the ramp angles and extreme grind of the PD camshafts I don't see how it could possibly hurt.
 

d2305

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Location
Pensacola FL
TDI
14 Ram EcoDiesel
I think all of the Royal Purple oils are synthetic. I can't be much worse than the recommended oils, and may protect better. See the cam issues with the brm and bew.
 

Bob_Fout

Oil Wanker
Joined
Sep 5, 2004
Location
Indiana
TDI
2003 Jetta - Alaska Green (sold) / 2015 GTI 2.0T
If you don't mind sharing, where did this graph come from? What were the test conditions?

Thanks-
It's from an SAE paper some years ago, with a medium/large engine diesel engine at ~0F / -20C (I think).
 
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