EGT sensor to msa15/EDC15 ECU and VCDS
- Thread starter TDIfreak
- Start date
Feinstaub_CH
Veteran Member
Thats cool!
Can you tell us more about it?
Do you have a DIY manuall, if available?
Cheers
Feinstaub
Hello everyone.
Here are some video to show you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwJ3kfToK-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goyr-fRrl-c
At the moment we translate a tutorial in English with skols (we only writting a tutorial in french for the moment).
Here also changed my dump to view the egt.
https://mega.co.nz/#!gkc21QIZ!UANSVPoq0j26y-DKDUrL8-ISOkbQuRX_PttZeITFI04
See you soon.
Here are some video to show you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwJ3kfToK-E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goyr-fRrl-c
At the moment we translate a tutorial in English with skols (we only writting a tutorial in french for the moment).
Here also changed my dump to view the egt.
https://mega.co.nz/#!gkc21QIZ!UANSVPoq0j26y-DKDUrL8-ISOkbQuRX_PttZeITFI04
See you soon.
dieseleux
Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
Nice!
Dieseleux
Dieseleux
very nice..
I recently had a vw motorsport R-tdi ecu in my hands and I plugged it in a car to see what it did. somehow they have map based smokelim, but it doesnt work like normal map based smokelim as this map is left empty. it calculates a virtual maf value which goes into the normal smokelim map. the maf value depends on engine speed, boost and it seems thats it has also throttle input as it risis quickly when you stab the pedal even with constant rpm and boost.
any idea how this is done?
I recently had a vw motorsport R-tdi ecu in my hands and I plugged it in a car to see what it did. somehow they have map based smokelim, but it doesnt work like normal map based smokelim as this map is left empty. it calculates a virtual maf value which goes into the normal smokelim map. the maf value depends on engine speed, boost and it seems thats it has also throttle input as it risis quickly when you stab the pedal even with constant rpm and boost.
any idea how this is done?
dieseleux
Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
Use spaire analogue input!
The soft are modified to use this input.
Possible like run MAP in place of MAF.
Bosch ECU have so many secret and undiscover feature... like Bi-Turbo switch on old ecu!
Dieseleux
The soft are modified to use this input.
Possible like run MAP in place of MAF.
Bosch ECU have so many secret and undiscover feature... like Bi-Turbo switch on old ecu!
Dieseleux
Dorkage
Veteran Member
So is it possible to add this EGT input and make a map for a WaterMeth output based on IAT and EGT?
Yes, it's possible if OTF is used as analogic input (oil temp) because there's a OTF limit in the dump....
Like say John, we'll write a tuto soon.....when i have time.
And like say dieseleux, the EDC15 have so many secret.....more than it seem.
Rub....OTF input work without any issue, as WTK input we use for the video....
But we used EGT as a IQ limit....
That was the question?
Sorry for my bad english.....
Sorry i think i don't really understand the meaning of that......
What was the question exactly....?
What is watermeth?
Water injection?
Water methanol injection?
Thank's, i understand after reply....
In EDC15, there's a complex strategy around climatronic, including pump management for cooling....
But we don't have enough work on it to give a reliable answer....sorry.
Indeed, use MAF input as EGT, and the EGR map for injection control can be an option.....i think duty cicle can be used as a TOR output for an intake injection....right.
Last edited:
cruiserboy
Well-known member
If you want to run WMI when EGT are too high, I guess you don't need to make that so complicated.
You could only use signal from EGT probe to define above which voltage you would like to activate your WMI system
You could only use signal from EGT probe to define above which voltage you would like to activate your WMI system
Dorkage
Veteran Member
This is what I will likely end up doing, and a few other factors too. I'll probably use an arduino to do it.
Hello everybody.....
First of all, i apologize for my poor english, and hope this little tuto will be understandable...
This said, i thank John for his fabulus job in this project....the limits of his genius are the EDC15 one's, nothing else.
In fact, the idea was excatly that of this thread : manage EGT by the EDC15, and if possible, make an EGT IQ limit for hard remap...
STEP1 : Find an input which can "read" EGT analogic signal
In EDC15, there's not so much input that can be used for that, because most sensors send essential data to the ECU, so it's not possible to delete them.
But there are a few anyway :
- External T° (UTF)
- Option coolant T° (WTK)
- Oil T° (OTF)
At the moment, my car run on WTK input for EGT and it work fine. Because it's an EDC15 optional value, all other measures are maintained...
But WTK doesn't limit IQ, and that was the aim....OTF does...
The problem with OTF is that the sensor isn't analogic, it's a combined sensor with an alternativ signal...
STEP2 : switch the input analog reading
We knew it was possible, because it was written in this document:
BOSCH EDC15+
The problem is that none of the switches seemed to activate the analog input....
The switch is : anwOTF_KAN (adress 5386A in John dump).
If anwOTF_KAN is:
- between 0 to 255, it's the analog input
- between 256 to 511, it's BUS can
- exactly 512, it's the default value (anwOTF_VOR)
So the value must be between 0 to 255, but we don't know which one.
And this is where john has to prove his genius ...
Look at this picture, which represent the PCB:
You can see that OTF is the 5st input in the PCB.
To activate OTF in analog value, you just have to put 5 in anwOTF_KAN switch....nothing else.
Like this :
STEP3 : Make the EGT signal usable
An EGT sensor output signal is between 0mv (0°) to 20mv (1000°), but the EDC15 input is a 0-5v.
So you need to amplify EGT signal to a range value that the EDC15 can read..
To do this, a little amplifier (like this one : Amp ADAFRUIT) can be used.
First problem, this amp isn't really suitable for our plans because the range is 0-750°.
The Vout is Vout = T° * 5mv + 1.25V
So for 0° Vout = 1.25V and for 750° Vout = 5V
John decide to modify the amp like this :
Before:
After:
Now, the range is 0-1000°, a correct range for our use (even if a wider range would have been better for very hard used).
But we have another problem. An electrical problem.
Here is a OTF electrical representation :
The 2 resistances (1000/683) make an equivalent resistance about 405ohms. So our little amp need to cashed 5V/405ohms = 12mA.
But it can't, 7mA is the max it can handle...
For any problem, John had a solution....he took an OPA350 to amplify our 7mA max to 40mA....
Like this :
Finaly, like this :
So this :
Ok, now we have a Type-K signal between 0-5v for 0-1000°.....
First of all, i apologize for my poor english, and hope this little tuto will be understandable...
This said, i thank John for his fabulus job in this project....the limits of his genius are the EDC15 one's, nothing else.
In fact, the idea was excatly that of this thread : manage EGT by the EDC15, and if possible, make an EGT IQ limit for hard remap...
STEP1 : Find an input which can "read" EGT analogic signal
In EDC15, there's not so much input that can be used for that, because most sensors send essential data to the ECU, so it's not possible to delete them.
But there are a few anyway :
- External T° (UTF)
- Option coolant T° (WTK)
- Oil T° (OTF)
At the moment, my car run on WTK input for EGT and it work fine. Because it's an EDC15 optional value, all other measures are maintained...
But WTK doesn't limit IQ, and that was the aim....OTF does...
The problem with OTF is that the sensor isn't analogic, it's a combined sensor with an alternativ signal...
STEP2 : switch the input analog reading
We knew it was possible, because it was written in this document:
BOSCH EDC15+
The problem is that none of the switches seemed to activate the analog input....
The switch is : anwOTF_KAN (adress 5386A in John dump).
If anwOTF_KAN is:
- between 0 to 255, it's the analog input
- between 256 to 511, it's BUS can
- exactly 512, it's the default value (anwOTF_VOR)
So the value must be between 0 to 255, but we don't know which one.
And this is where john has to prove his genius ...
Look at this picture, which represent the PCB:
You can see that OTF is the 5st input in the PCB.
To activate OTF in analog value, you just have to put 5 in anwOTF_KAN switch....nothing else.
Like this :
STEP3 : Make the EGT signal usable
An EGT sensor output signal is between 0mv (0°) to 20mv (1000°), but the EDC15 input is a 0-5v.
So you need to amplify EGT signal to a range value that the EDC15 can read..
To do this, a little amplifier (like this one : Amp ADAFRUIT) can be used.
First problem, this amp isn't really suitable for our plans because the range is 0-750°.
The Vout is Vout = T° * 5mv + 1.25V
So for 0° Vout = 1.25V and for 750° Vout = 5V
John decide to modify the amp like this :
Before:
After:
Now, the range is 0-1000°, a correct range for our use (even if a wider range would have been better for very hard used).
But we have another problem. An electrical problem.
Here is a OTF electrical representation :
The 2 resistances (1000/683) make an equivalent resistance about 405ohms. So our little amp need to cashed 5V/405ohms = 12mA.
But it can't, 7mA is the max it can handle...
For any problem, John had a solution....he took an OPA350 to amplify our 7mA max to 40mA....
Like this :
Finaly, like this :
So this :
Ok, now we have a Type-K signal between 0-5v for 0-1000°.....
Last edited:
STEP 4 : remap EDC15 for EGT reading
You ever switch anwOTF_KAN to 5, so now let's calibrate the min/max voltage in the ECU.
anwOTF_MIN (5386E) must be = 0
anwOTF_MAX (5386C) must be = 1023 because it's a 0-1024 range, for 0-5V voltage....
(If you need to see it in Volts, just put a factor = 0.004887)
Now, the OTF linearisation MAP, called anwOTF_KL (5B9EA)
Originally, it's 1x2 dimension MAP, so we need to built another one, for more precision.
Because there's some empty place in the dump, we can rebuild some map.
In the OTF example, it has been build in 1x25, like this :
I suppose everybody reading this thread know how change the MAP dimension, but we can explain if needed....
Note that x axis had a factor 0.004887, for voltage reading.
OK, at this STEP, the ECU read EGT with the analog OTF input.
Next STEP (tomorrow because i'm tired), we'll see how to read this value in VCDS, and finally the IQ limit...
Good night.
You ever switch anwOTF_KAN to 5, so now let's calibrate the min/max voltage in the ECU.
anwOTF_MIN (5386E) must be = 0
anwOTF_MAX (5386C) must be = 1023 because it's a 0-1024 range, for 0-5V voltage....
(If you need to see it in Volts, just put a factor = 0.004887)
Now, the OTF linearisation MAP, called anwOTF_KL (5B9EA)
Originally, it's 1x2 dimension MAP, so we need to built another one, for more precision.
Because there's some empty place in the dump, we can rebuild some map.
In the OTF example, it has been build in 1x25, like this :
I suppose everybody reading this thread know how change the MAP dimension, but we can explain if needed....
Note that x axis had a factor 0.004887, for voltage reading.
OK, at this STEP, the ECU read EGT with the analog OTF input.
Next STEP (tomorrow because i'm tired), we'll see how to read this value in VCDS, and finally the IQ limit...
Good night.
Last edited:
dieseleux
Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
Nice work!
Dieseleux
Dieseleux
dieseleux
Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
Ok, seem to be good!
My english is also not very high but if i see some detail need improvement i PM to you.
Dieseleux
My english is also not very high but if i see some detail need improvement i PM to you.
Dieseleux
chapelhill
Veteran Member
Hi skols very impressive work. If you want some help translating I am native english speaker do my own ecu tuning on edc15 and my partner is French. But you have done a very good job anyway.
faboka
Veteran Member
Very good work.
STEP 5 : Read EGT in VCDS
If you've never open WinOLS, or look at an EDC15 dump, it will be hard to understand.
I'll try to explain the more understandable i can.
How does VCDS can read the engine sensor value?
To understand that, you must have this document : Message number EDC15 (sorry in german, i let you translate)
When you look at the second parts of this .txt, you will see something like that:
In RED, the 5 value you can switch to analog input.
The first column is the message number of the value. For exemple, the messNumb of the coolant T° (Wassertemperatur) is 0F00 (16bit/FF).
In fact, every value have a MessNumb, allowing VCDS to identify them.
So, we must find in the dump this Messnumb somewhere.
That's what we call VCDS canal. It's a 4*120 MAP in 8bit/255 and a 2x120 MAP in 16bit/FF.
Adresse is 532EA in John dump.
Here it is with MessNumb.txt :
Every line represent a value.
For example, the line 1 is the coolant T°, with a MessNumb 0F00 :
In WHITE, this the definition of the value. In the example, 5 - 9 is the definition of T°....so all the T° value will start like this.
I'll not explain the type value in details, but we'll talk about it in a few time...
Ok, we know how a value is defined.
We must find now how VCDS put in order all this value, in the "MEASURE BLOCK".
No problem, it's also a MAP in the dump.
At 53222, you'll find a 4x40 MAP, which is the "MEASURE BLOCK" arrangement.
Every line represent a measuring block that you can read in VCDS.
For example, on ARL PD engine, the block 007 (line 7) represent the engine T° measurement.
In the picture below, you can see the block 007 in details :
Note that you can make your own measure block now, just putting the canal you want read in the measure block you want....
We know now how VCDS read a value, and how it put in order.
How read OTF in VCDS?
In original dump, OTF is not defined for VCDS, but it can be, because it had a messNumb...
In MessNumb.txt, OTF adress is 0F07.
So we must find an empty canl to insert it.
Always in a ARL PD dump, you've got some empty canal, line 61/62 for example :
Don't forget to put it in the "Measure block" MAP, like this:
So easy......now the canal 61 is defined as Oil Temp (OTF), and can be read in VCDS, block 007, value 002....
If you have the sensor, you can do this modification easily....
So, if every thing right, the EGT signal is amplified, enter in analogic PIN 113, and can be read in VCDS.....GREAT!!!!....but....
.....but the range value for T° in VCDS are 136° max....for 0-5V range sensor....
That's why linearisation was calibrate to 0-101° and not 0-1000°....
So our EGT give 50° for a real T° about 500°.
To fix it, the key is in the value type.
John "The genius" find easily (he's a genius, not me) that a factor of 10 apply to the type allowed to fix the problem.
Like this :
EGT WORK
NEXT STEP : use EGT as an IQ limit.....
Good night.
If you've never open WinOLS, or look at an EDC15 dump, it will be hard to understand.
I'll try to explain the more understandable i can.
How does VCDS can read the engine sensor value?
To understand that, you must have this document : Message number EDC15 (sorry in german, i let you translate)
When you look at the second parts of this .txt, you will see something like that:
In RED, the 5 value you can switch to analog input.
The first column is the message number of the value. For exemple, the messNumb of the coolant T° (Wassertemperatur) is 0F00 (16bit/FF).
In fact, every value have a MessNumb, allowing VCDS to identify them.
So, we must find in the dump this Messnumb somewhere.
That's what we call VCDS canal. It's a 4*120 MAP in 8bit/255 and a 2x120 MAP in 16bit/FF.
Adresse is 532EA in John dump.
Here it is with MessNumb.txt :
Every line represent a value.
For example, the line 1 is the coolant T°, with a MessNumb 0F00 :
In WHITE, this the definition of the value. In the example, 5 - 9 is the definition of T°....so all the T° value will start like this.
I'll not explain the type value in details, but we'll talk about it in a few time...
Ok, we know how a value is defined.
We must find now how VCDS put in order all this value, in the "MEASURE BLOCK".
No problem, it's also a MAP in the dump.
At 53222, you'll find a 4x40 MAP, which is the "MEASURE BLOCK" arrangement.
Every line represent a measuring block that you can read in VCDS.
For example, on ARL PD engine, the block 007 (line 7) represent the engine T° measurement.
In the picture below, you can see the block 007 in details :
Note that you can make your own measure block now, just putting the canal you want read in the measure block you want....
We know now how VCDS read a value, and how it put in order.
How read OTF in VCDS?
In original dump, OTF is not defined for VCDS, but it can be, because it had a messNumb...
In MessNumb.txt, OTF adress is 0F07.
So we must find an empty canl to insert it.
Always in a ARL PD dump, you've got some empty canal, line 61/62 for example :
Don't forget to put it in the "Measure block" MAP, like this:
So easy......now the canal 61 is defined as Oil Temp (OTF), and can be read in VCDS, block 007, value 002....
If you have the sensor, you can do this modification easily....
So, if every thing right, the EGT signal is amplified, enter in analogic PIN 113, and can be read in VCDS.....GREAT!!!!....but....
.....but the range value for T° in VCDS are 136° max....for 0-5V range sensor....
That's why linearisation was calibrate to 0-101° and not 0-1000°....
So our EGT give 50° for a real T° about 500°.
To fix it, the key is in the value type.
John "The genius" find easily (he's a genius
, not me) that a factor of 10 apply to the type allowed to fix the problem.Like this :
EGT WORK
NEXT STEP : use EGT as an IQ limit.....
Good night.
Last edited:
sparco
Well-known member
I've seen your progress thread on chiptuners.fr, very impressive work SKOLS!
Makes me wonder wether or not something like this would be possible on the EDC16 or not...
Unfortunately there isn't as much information on this ecu as there is on the EDC15...
Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9300 met Tapatalk
Makes me wonder wether or not something like this would be possible on the EDC16 or not...
Unfortunately there isn't as much information on this ecu as there is on the EDC15...
Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9300 met Tapatalk
sparco
Well-known member
Well I did mean you project in general
But sure enough, great work from john as well
Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9300 met Tapatalk
But sure enough, great work from john as well
Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9300 met Tapatalk